Ukrainian Conflict

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

As I said earlier, if the Russian army did not came to Crimea, then the Ukraine one certainly will. Am I wrong?

Crimea was part of Ukraine. It'd be weird if they couldn't send their troops there.

In the end, the idealistic presumptions that you are trying to argue for a "democratic" process will never ever exist. If fact, without the presence of the polite people, any referendum will result in Maiden #2, in the sense that violence will reign, and groups not happy with the referendum result will simply ignore it going into protest. These factions will be backed by the west, "money to support the democratic institutions". Do you agree that this is more likely the course of events?

There were almost a million people protesting in Kiev alone. Even if (and it's a big if) some of the groups were helped by "the west" (who? Germany? America? France? Poland? comapnies? The "west" isn't one block), it couldn't have been all or even a large portion of that million.

I understand people want true democracy. Then why play double standard? Why not scrutinise every party involved in this business? When confronted with the question whether the current government in Kiev hired the snipers, the answer is "there is no hard evidence, let it go" despite facts like same type of bullets . Did they find any hard evidence that the referendum is rigged? Or it is more of speculation on the numbers? Why not "let it go" this time?

Is the fact that there was was no choice to not change the border (stay part of Ukraine) not evidence enough that the referendum was flawed? There's your hard evidence.

[Nachtwandler]

It's so funny to look how people argue here and don't give a damn about what Ukrainians think. Yanukovich was a really bad president. He was hated both by commoners and businessmen. But the current Ukrainian government is even worser.

1. Their main core is coalition of the party of Yulia Timoshenko(former prime-minister who's not better than Yanukovich) and radical right party "Svoboda"(Liberty) who are just Nazis.
2. Most active part of revolutionary are radical group Right Front, who are even more Nazis.
3. They bare only interests of Western areas of Ukraine and don't care about the East and South(which are the main industrial parts of the country).
4. They form the Cabinet of Ministers from politicians from Western Ukraine only(only 3 of them are not from the West but they are close Tuimoshenko's subordinates). And a lot of them are totally incompetent in the area they granted with.
5. They put in force couple of very unpopular laws just to please the leaders of revolutionary.
6. They made a lot of oligarchs governors.


And I could continue this list. The main thing is: most of Ukrainian people don't like Putin but a lot of them dislike our new government even more. If the former government won't be so passive(because of EU pressure) it even didn't became legitimate(damn it's still not legitimate ion the eyes of Southern and Eastern Ukraine).

[LeoXiao]

It would have been better, from the looks of it, if Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine just stayed one country since 1991.

EDIT: Also, apparently the Japanese are looking at this mess from a more positive angle.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

For the people who cry about "true democracy", let me ask you one question:
If the votes had had no problem whatsoever, would the West (and you) have happily recognized the result and let Crimea join Russia?
Or will you go to find another thing to protest?

We know for sure that Putin didn't want to take the chance, so we know Russia would NOT have recognised a no vote.

You can try to twist it any way you like, but Putin is clearly guilty here. Putin made sure both votes say Yes. He is the one who fear true democracy, not us. Until Putin behave like a man rather than a coward, you have no ground to accuse the rest of us anything.

Seriously, "you would rig the vote too if you could!" is just childish. The fact that you don't care for democracy doesn't mean the rst of us are automatically just like you and Putin.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by konart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean..._2014#Monitors

Finland, Serbia, Spain (Catalonia) and other countries. I can continue this discussion and give a full list tomorrow if anyone still interested.



Don't know about other countries, but it's common way for people to vote at their home in Russia and Ukraine if it's hard to move for them (elderly) and in some other situations

Members from far right parties such as Front Nationale received invitation from Russia to act as observers in the referendum. OSCE, not surprisingly, wasn't invited.

As for moving ballot box during an election, that's against the rules as it could easily lead to voting fraud. That it happens in Ukraine and Russia doesn't really surprise me.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Actually it's totally possible for a turn out of 97% support. Just think, if you only have 2 options a) make Crimea an independent nation, which will either see it annexed by a bloody conflict between Russia or Ukrainie, b) join Russia. Then the obvious options will be to vote for joining Russia right way. The 97% in this case make perfect sense

High turn out and high one sided result is impossible in a fair election.

[kuroishinigami]

Not impossible... Highly unlikely....

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

It's so funny to look how people argue here and don't give a damn about what Ukrainians think. Yanukovich was a really bad president. He was hated both by commoners and businessmen. But the current Ukrainian government is even worser.

1. Their main core is coalition of the party of Yulia Timoshenko(former prime-minister who's not better than Yanukovich) and radical right party "Svoboda"(Liberty) who are just Nazis.
2. Most active part of revolutionary are radical group Right Front, who are even more Nazis.
3. They bare only interests of Western areas of Ukraine and don't care about the East and South(which are the main industrial parts of the country).
4. They form the Cabinet of Ministers from politicians from Western Ukraine only(only 3 of them are not from the West but they are close Tuimoshenko's subordinates). And a lot of them are totally incompetent in the area they granted with.
5. They put in force couple of very unpopular laws just to please the leaders of revolutionary.
6. They made a lot of oligarchs governors.


And I could continue this list. The main thing is: most of Ukrainian people don't like Putin but a lot of them dislike our new government even more. If the former government won't be so passive(because of EU pressure) it even didn't became legitimate(damn it's still not legitimate ion the eyes of Southern and Eastern Ukraine).

This ^


I don't know if those Ukrainian i knows were all from the East side or not. But their general concern seems much lesser on Crimea, but more on Ukraine current right wing government. Not as "ZOMG they are Nazi" like the Russian do, but more on "...but, but these guys do not represent us"


From Western POV, it's opposite, the undemocratic ruling of Crimea seems to get much attention than how undemocratic Kiev government is.

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

We know for sure that Putin didn't want to take the chance, so we know Russia would NOT have recognised a no vote.

You can try to twist it any way you like, but Putin is clearly guilty here. Putin made sure both votes say Yes. He is the one who fear true democracy, not us. Until Putin behave like a man rather than a coward, you have no ground to accuse the rest of us anything.

Seriously, "you would rig the vote too if you could!" is just childish. The fact that you don't care for democracy doesn't mean the rst of us are automatically just like you and Putin.

Please don't quote my post and then talk about things irrelevant to its content, okay?
I did nothing but ask a simple question and you only need to say YES or NO.
Or if the question is too difficult for you to answer, just say so! ^^

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

As I said earlier, if the Russian army did not came to Crimea, then the Ukraine one certainly will. Am I wrong?

In the end, the idealistic presumptions that you are trying to argue for a "democratic" process will never ever exist.

That's purely conjecture, and certainly not one that justifies an invasion. There's nothing idealistic about assuming there will be a proper democratic process in a country that has had close contacts with the OSCE. At the very least, I'd think it's appropriate to wait until the elections in May instead of immediately decrying it as impossible. The Ukrainian parliament has plenty of issues it needs to sort out particularly with it's far right sector. But that doesn't justify Russia's land grab.

If fact, without the presence of the polite people, any referendum will result in Maiden #2, in the sense that violence will reign, and groups not happy with the referendum result will simply ignore it going into protest. These factions will be backed by the west, "money to support the democratic institutions". Do you agree that this is more likely the course of events?

No, that just sounds like an insane conspiracy theory. How would a proper referendum result in Maiden 2? What does that even mean? Are you saying Euromaidans would take root in Crimea as well if there was a proper democratic referendum that ended up pro-russian? Then explain to me why aren't they taking root now when they definitely have reason to ignore the result?

I understand people want true democracy. Then why play double standard? Why not scrutinise every party involved in this business? When confronted with the question whether the current government in Kiev hired the snipers, the answer is "there is no hard evidence, let it go" despite facts like same type of bullets .

That wasn't a fact though. A little bit of research makes that abundantly clear. And nobody is saying let it go. Everyone wants those snipers to be investigated and supports them being investigated.

Did they find any hard evidence that the referendum is rigged? Or it is more of speculation on the numbers? Why not "let it go" this time?

Because I don't apologise for imperialism regardless of who does it. And there's plenty of evidence to suggest the referendum doesn't conform to any real standards.

[MrTerrorist]

Oh dear.

Crimea's Attorney General Spawns Anime Fan Art



Annie is that you?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

It would have been better, from the looks of it, if Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine just stayed one country since 1991.

EDIT: Also, apparently the Japanese are looking at this mess from a more positive angle.

So which one is you and konart?

On the other hand, crime rates will soar in Crimea as people take the chance to be her personal political prisoner (alliteration unintended).

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Annie is that you?

She's part of Putin's Survey Corps.

[Kyero Fox]

Asassinate her now... NOW!

XD

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Oh dear.

Crimea's Attorney General Spawns Anime Fan Art

Holy shit!

How old is that Natalia Poklonskaya girl to be attorney general?

[Sackett]

33 aparently

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

It's so funny to look how people argue here and don't give a damn about what Ukrainians think. Yanukovich was a really bad president. He was hated both by commoners and businessmen. But the current Ukrainian government is even worser.

1. Their main core is coalition of the party of Yulia Timoshenko(former prime-minister who's not better than Yanukovich) and radical right party "Svoboda"(Liberty) who are just Nazis.
2. Most active part of revolutionary are radical group Right Front, who are even more Nazis.
3. They bare only interests of Western areas of Ukraine and don't care about the East and South(which are the main industrial parts of the country).
4. They form the Cabinet of Ministers from politicians from Western Ukraine only(only 3 of them are not from the West but they are close Tuimoshenko's subordinates). And a lot of them are totally incompetent in the area they granted with.
5. They put in force couple of very unpopular laws just to please the leaders of revolutionary.
6. They made a lot of oligarchs governors.


And I could continue this list. The main thing is: most of Ukrainian people don't like Putin but a lot of them dislike our new government even more. If the former government won't be so passive(because of EU pressure) it even didn't became legitimate(damn it's still not legitimate ion the eyes of Southern and Eastern Ukraine).

Thank you very much for providing the first hand information. Everyone should read this post from our Ukraine forum member.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Sackett

33 aparently

It's quite young for starters, but why the uniform though? I'm not sure it's good PR to get dressed in black like Heinrich Himmler for such a position.

[Haak]

Seems legit.

[risingstar3110]

The best one

[Der Langrisser]

Russian forces storm Ukraine base in Crimea, U.S. sees 'dark path' to isolation
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A2I0TR20140319
http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures...USRTR3HPXG#a=1