Bleach Episode 284 Discussion Thread

[Maxtro]

IMO, Stark was made #1 espada by Aizen just to spite Barragan. Stark wasn't stronger than Barragan, Aizen just didn't want Barragan to be #1.

[FlareKnight]

Well at least Halibel had the best flashback of the espada. Geeze she was living pretty well with her group before Aizen showed up to cause utter chaos with the arrancar transformations. Gets used and then thrown away when she was no longer useful. Her reward for surviving the longest is getting cut down.

Time for everyone to gang up on Aizen and get utterly owned because Aizen is just that powerful. Just a matter of waiting for Ichigo to show up since he has to defeat Aizen himself.

[Voduar]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

^ Bleach has more than one canon. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you.

Don't worry, I definitely don't take Bleach too seriously now, though this episode sort of ruins a theory I had going about Starrk and Barragan being the only VLs in the group, as every other arrancar so far has animalistic or plant parts in their release. Also, it seems to eliminate the other theory that Aizen didn't find any VLs.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

not really...
Halibel was NOT a normal Vasto Lorde, she was an arrancarized Vasto Lordo which should be WAY stronger (not to mention that hitsugaya is arguably one of the weaker captains). By all means she should have wiped the floor with Hitsugaya quite easily, much like how Grimjow beat the living shit out of non-vizard ichigo

In fact the first grimjow vs ichigo fight illustrates well how these fights SHOULD have gone down if the power levels made sense. Ichigo was captain level himself, just below byakuya in terms of strength, and yet even with Bankai he did not have a prayer against a non-released Grimjow... Now Stark and Halibel, being even stronger than Grimjow, SHOULD have been able to do the same, completely storming the battlefield without even the need to release their true power. Releasing would have meant an instant game over for the SS captains...

In the end, it really should have been the vizard captains that should have really saved the day... between vizard masks, and their Bankai, they should have had the strength to do what Ichigo did to Grim when he used HIS vizard powers... and that would be fight toe to toe with their released forms.


Barragan I would say is probably the ONLY espada who has so far lived up to the Vasto Lorde reputation... And not so much because of his aging powers (which are just horribly broken to the point where it is baffling how he hasn't killed Aizen yet), but by the fact that he was able to take a direct hit with Soi fon's Bankai and come out with only a minor (atleast that's how he made it seem) injury... See now THAT's the kind of power I expect from an arrancarized Vasto Lorde, so strong that a captain has trouble doing ANY damage; hell the captains should probably have trouble just landing a hit


Now that i have a hard time buying...
I would expect Stark to have the speed and reflexes to block or dodge such attacks... and Hell, bringing up Barragan again, i would expect Stark to have the defense and stamina to just shrug off such an attack... really are expected to believe that Kyoraku's shikai attack was so vastly stronger than Soi fon's nuke bankai? Compared to Barry's defence, Stark just comes off as weak.

Halibel would not be anything like Grimmjow. This is because of Halibel's reason of death being sacrifice. You can't compare Tia and Grimmjow on those terms

Barragan as I said was perfect. Why he never killed Aizen before hand is simple. Aizen's power never counts when discussing Vl's I learned that. Tite simply overpowered Aizen to the point were I think if the highest level Vl came up to him he would win easily, if the highest level shinigami came up to him he would win easily. If the almighty came up to him he would win

Starrk I understand how weird that felt, but Kyoraku's zanokatou pretty much can beat any hollow he is faced with.

[Lumir]

So I guess we can safely assume Uliq was the strongest in his 2nd release form out of the top 5. He seemed the most cunning and most intelligent. Maby 2nd to barrigan but who knows.

And as for stark vs barrigan debate. Well there is none. Barrigan was far superior.

Now onto the 2nd release form uli vs barri debate!

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

Halibel would not be anything like Grimmjow. This is because of Halibel's reason of death being sacrifice. You can't compare Tia and Grimmjow on those terms

What does that really have to do with anything?
All that might say is that halibel would be less brutal in her asskicking and might not enjoy it or drag it out as much... at the end of the day the espada are numbered in order of strength, and Halibel's rank at number 3 means that she is CLEARLY stronger than Grimjow was.

The only possible exceptions are Barry because Aizen might have been trying to insult him with his rank, and Ulq due to his second resurrection... but really Ulq even without the 2nd resurrection illustrates my point... With only his first resurrection he had ichigo beat even though ichigo had his captain level abilities increased through vizard power. Ulq, grimjow, and Barragan, show how the espada should be if the power levels actually made sense... Halibel and stark not so much...

[Waking_Dreamer]

Espada could be ranked by their reiatsu, or spiritual energy...not necessarily by their fighting/killing ability.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

What does that really have to do with anything?
All that might say is that halibel would be less brutal in her asskicking and might not enjoy it or drag it out as much... at the end of the day the espada are numbered in order of strength, and Halibel's rank at number 3 means that she is CLEARLY stronger than Grimjow was.

The only possible exceptions are Barry because Aizen might have been trying to insult him with his rank, and Ulq due to his second resurrection... but really Ulq even without the 2nd resurrection illustrates my point... With only his first resurrection he had ichigo beat even though ichigo had his captain level abilities increased through vizard power. Ulq, grimjow, and Barragan, show how the espada should be if the power levels actually made sense... Halibel and stark not so much...

Why stop you said she'd be less brutal, but just as powerful. By what I saw her power exceeded Toshiro Hitsugaya.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Lumir

So I guess we can safely assume Uliq was the strongest in his 2nd release form out of the top 5. He seemed the most cunning and most intelligent. Maby 2nd to barrigan but who knows.

And as for stark vs barrigan debate. Well there is none. Barrigan was far superior.

Now onto the 2nd release form uli vs barri debate!

well seeing Uliqurra's nuke spear > SoiFon's bankai I'd say Uliqurra would win.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

Barragan as I said was perfect. Why he never killed Aizen before hand is simple. Aizen's power never counts when discussing Vl's I learned that. Tite simply overpowered Aizen to the point were I think if the highest level Vl came up to him he would win easily, if the highest level shinigami came up to him he would win easily. If the almighty came up to him he would win

My databook knowledge is pretty old but as far as I remember it had the captain commander at 100 power and Aizen at 96 which would make the old man stronger than Aizen.

[Hisagi_Shuuhei]

I wonder what techinuque Aizen used.

Didn't sound like Shunpu, nor Sonido :/

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

My databook knowledge is pretty old but as far as I remember it had the captain commander at 100 power and Aizen at 96 which would make the old man stronger than Aizen.

Try not to interpret that data wrong. The numbers mean completely different things for different captains as it only compares their strengths in relation to their own weaknesses. Otherwise, that would mean Komamura has just as much offensive power as Yamamoto (since they both share 100 in that particular stat). Needless to say, the old man is in a league of his own.

[Ichiban Hayai]

Originally Posted by Hisagi_Shuuhei

I wonder what techinuque Aizen used.

Didn't sound like Shunpu, nor Sonido :/

Aizen released his zampaktou.
Halibel cut through an illusion. The real Aizen was just behind her.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Ulq due to his second resurrection... but really Ulq even without the 2nd resurrection illustrates my point... With only his first resurrection he had ichigo beat even though ichigo had his captain level abilities increased through vizard power.

I really wish people would stop saying Bat-chan's segunda etapa makes him stronger than the rest of the Espada. Ai-chan knows how strong all of the Espada were before they were arrancarized, so he knows how much reiatsu they each have. Bat-chan even said the top 3 were stronger than him.

[MihawkXGP]

That was a nice flashback...

I do sigh and wonder if we'll ever see those Vasto Lordes that were mentioned alll the way back when this whole arrancar thing started. I so badly wanna see them...

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

not really...
Halibel was NOT a normal Vasto Lorde, she was an arrancarized Vasto Lordo which should be WAY stronger (not to mention that hitsugaya is arguably one of the weaker captains). By all means she should have wiped the floor with Hitsugaya quite easily, much like how Grimjow beat the living shit out of non-vizard ichigo

In fact the first grimjow vs ichigo fight illustrates well how these fights SHOULD have gone down if the power levels made sense. Ichigo was captain level himself, just below byakuya in terms of strength, and yet even with Bankai he did not have a prayer against a non-released Grimjow... Now Stark and Halibel, being even stronger than Grimjow, SHOULD have been able to do the same, completely storming the battlefield without even the need to release their true power. Releasing would have meant an instant game over for the SS captains...

In the end, it really should have been the vizard captains that should have really saved the day... between vizard masks, and their Bankai, they should have had the strength to do what Ichigo did to Grim when he used HIS vizard powers... and that would be fight toe to toe with their released forms.


Barragan I would say is probably the ONLY espada who has so far lived up to the Vasto Lorde reputation... And not so much because of his aging powers (which are just horribly broken to the point where it is baffling how he hasn't killed Aizen yet), but by the fact that he was able to take a direct hit with Soi fon's Bankai and come out with only a minor (atleast that's how he made it seem) injury... See now THAT's the kind of power I expect from an arrancarized Vasto Lorde, so strong that a captain has trouble doing ANY damage; hell the captains should probably have trouble just landing a hit


Now that i have a hard time buying...
I would expect Stark to have the speed and reflexes to block or dodge such attacks... and Hell, bringing up Barragan again, i would expect Stark to have the defense and stamina to just shrug off such an attack... really are expected to believe that Kyoraku's shikai attack was so vastly stronger than Soi fon's nuke bankai? Compared to Barry's defence, Stark just comes off as weak.

Halibel wasn't a Vasto Lorde. Not even close. Its pretty obvious that Stark, Hallibel, Barragan and Uliquiorra were all natural arrancar that were made even stronger by the orb thingy.

We've yet to see any Vasto Lordes as of yet.

So as it stands its Gillian > Adjuhucas > Arrancar i.e Stark, Barragan etc > Vasto Lorde

The hyugoku gives a massive level of power boost to the one it is used on. Hence its not a surprise that the Stark, Barragan etc were as strong as they were.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

That was a nice flashback...

I do sigh and wonder if we'll ever see those Vasto Lordes that were mentioned alll the way back when this whole arrancar thing started. I so badly wanna see them...

We've been seeing them this entire arc, the Espada (most of them) are Vasto Lordes.
Please go to the first page of this thread and find sayde's post to receive your slap to the face.

[dragonmeister]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Halibel wasn't a Vasto Lorde. Not even close. Its pretty obvious that Stark, Hallibel, Barragan and Uliquiorra were all natural arrancar that were made even stronger by the orb thingy.

We've yet to see any Vasto Lordes as of yet.

So as it stands its Gillian > Adjuhucas > Arrancar i.e Stark, Barragan etc > Vasto Lorde

The hyugoku gives a massive level of power boost to the one it is used on. Hence its not a surprise that the Stark, Barragan etc were as strong as they were.

Have you actually seen the episode? It explicitly says that she's a vasto lorde (one of the fracciones says it) - hence the shock at the power of the adjuchas arrancar in comparison to Halibel (she previously having annihilated that adjuchas before its arrancarification and losing after).
Also, I think you want the >s the other way round - you're saying that vasto lordes are the worst and gillian the best.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by dragonmeister

Have you actually seen the episode? It explicitly says that she's a vasto lorde (one of the fracciones says it) - hence the shock at the power of the adjuchas arrancar in comparison to Halibel (she previously having annihilated that adjuchas before arrancarification and losing after).
Also, I think you want the >s the other way round - you're saying that vasto lordes are the worst and gillian the best.

Of course i watched the episode. This is a filler episode, not canon, since her past was never mentioned in the manga.

Her subordinates thinking she was a VL, isn'\t proof at all. They just made the assumption she was, since her reiatsu was well above that of any adjuhucas, and were completely unaware of what arrancar actually were.

And if it turns out they were Vasto Lordes, my God that is a disapointment of collosal proportions.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

And if it turns out they were Vasto Lordes, my God that is a disapointment of collosal proportions.

On the first page of the thread, someone said that the latest databook confirms that most of the espada were Vasto Lorde

[edit]actually trying to look it up, it seems like it may have just been the top 4
Which for me only screws with the system even more since Grimjow came off as a better Vasto Lorde than Stark or Halibel, and yet he was an adjucas