Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[NeutralZero]

Too bad they didn't include that scene... it would be nice to see his facial reaction when she told him that she will sell him as a slave if he refuse her proposal...
In terms prejudice against bowman or projectile user in general, they really should face either Archer or heck Gilgamesh and even Negi...
Long range aren't meant for short distance confrontation...
They can be used as initial assault if distance calls forth and support in the rear in terms of usefulness they're the same to sword user....
^If you are to do the LN translation, thanks...

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

Too bad they didn't include that scene... it would be nice to see his facial reaction when she told him that she will sell him as a slave if he refuse her proposal...
In terms prejudice against bowman or projectile user in general, they really should face either Archer or heck Gilgamesh and even Negi...
Long range aren't meant for short distance confrontation...
They can be used as initial assault if distance calls forth and support in the rear in terms of usefulness they're the same to sword user....
^If you are to do the LN translation, thanks...

You realize Archer and Gilgamesh spent most of the series swinging swords right? Even in anime, people think swords are better. Heck, Archer nor Gil actually killed anything with a bow, no matter how magical their weapons are.

Plus, most archers in those era are just either siege defense or 1 shot ponies. Once both army engage like the one in the manga, archers become useless since you can't risk hitting ally troops.

There was a later part of the LN where the maid/knight was asking Elen why the heck she want the boy so bad, since one archer don't make a difference (in the story setting, only thing archer do is 1-2 mass arrow barrage before the engagement)

Elen, being an amazing tactician, point out his range was incredible 15-30 meters a head of other archers. Therefore, he can snipe the enemy commanding officers from long distance-and a army without an commander are sheep for the slaughter.

Also she cheated, according to military treaty signed by all nations, archers are expected to be given back for free because NO side thought they worth anything.

[NeutralZero]

From what we can remember, Gilgamesh mostly spends his time throwing swords at his enemy via Gate of Babylon, not certain in Fate Zero since we haven't seen it yet
In terms of killing with the use of bow, think Archer did killed Berserker using a bow and Caladbolg 2 though it is a shame that Berserker have more than 1 life...
Since its on a diff series we're gonna stop here
Any case, Did/didn't tiger know of the military treaty?

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

From what we can remember, Gilgamesh mostly spends his time throwing swords at his enemy via Gate of Babylon, not certain in Fate Zero since we haven't seen it yet
In terms of killing with the use of bow, think Archer did killed Berserker using a bow and Caladbolg 2 though it is a shame that Berserker have more than 1 life...
Since its on a diff series we're gonna stop here
Any case, Did/didn't tiger know of the military treaty?

It wouldn't done him any good. The other side don't care . Only one who did were Tigre's own maid and serfs. They went to borrow money from neighboring lords, but every said "Sorry, we would certainly done it if it was other times. But given how much central government are being dicks and the nation soon may fall into chaos, we need to preserve our resources"

[NeutralZero]

Is there a reason why she asked for a ransom knowing they wouldn't pay?

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Also she cheated, according to military treaty signed by all nations, archers are expected to be given back for free because NO side thought they worth anything.

No. Only Brune set the ransom price for their country's archers that high because:
1) They would then be able to pay a much lower price for any hostaged knight of theirs.
2) They can just let their archers rot (since they have no high opinions of archers in the first place) at the hands of their enemies, or be sold away.

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

Is there a reason why she asked for a ransom knowing they wouldn't pay?

Standard practice as per the agreement set upon by the countries. Once held hostage, you inform the captive of the terms. Refusal to meet the terms = death or sold to slavery in Muozinel. Inability to meet the terms after the deadline = captor gets to decide what to do.

Elenore told Tigre because she is playing him. She is trying to back him into a corner and become her subordinate, thereby gaining her a very useful tool and some property to go with it.

Parts that went missing in the manga:
- Tigre asked Lim to "stop messing around" (indicating that he wasn't too pleased with being handed a messed-up bow and thinking that Lim had a hand in it) to which Lim just curiously looks at him, showing that she had no clue that Rurrick and the rest of her soldiers did it without her knowing.
- Elenore staged the demonstration because there were rumors floating around that she had fallen in love at first sight with Tigrewyrmid Voln. He was the very first ever prisoner of war she had taken. She wanted to dispel those rumors with a display of his ability, seeing that he was able to accurately shoot at her from a distance that was previously believed to be impossible.

[noobarta]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Also, the manga left out something somewhat racist. Other than demanding the 70,000 silver, she said if he refuse to be her underling, she will sell him to the nations to the south, which are BLACK SKINNED people who still practice slavery.

He refused never the less, saying since he was a lord of the realm, siding with her was treason. After he was escorted back to his room, Elen was like "In that case, we might as well conquer his fief...I mean, is next door..."

Wasn't it that they were just really tan cause it's super hot there? Think it was mentioned in vol 1 when they talked about possibility of having to sell Tigre to Muozniel mines in case ransom wasn't paid

[NeutralZero]

Think you're refereng to the LN
As far as translated chapters of the Manga are concern. they haven't mention a single thing about him being sold as slave if the ransom isn't paid...
In any case just who is the jerk that handed him the bow in CH2?

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

Think you're refereng to the LN
As far as translated chapters of the Manga are concern. they haven't mention a sigle thing about him being sold as slave if the ransom isn't paid...
In any case just who is the jerk that handed him the bow in CH2?

Actually, that jerk (cant recall his name now) actually became a nice guy after the incident. Shaved his own head in shame for screwing Tigre with the bad bow (as a apology), and became Tigre's guard and worshiper. They ended up playing cards in the Barrack all the time.

Which became a problem since when Tigre was planning an escape, he was like "sorry Tigre-sama, please don't think about such things, if you escape I would get executed"

And Tigre felt hyper guilty and didn't do it.

[ArchmageXin]

As I just mentioned on Baka Tsuki, I will do a chapter of this or Sereki no Rishi every time a chapter of Campione's volume 11 or volume 12 is released.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

As I just mentioned on Baka Tsuki, I will do a chapter of this or Sereki no Rishi every time a chapter of Campione's volume 11 or volume 12 is released.

I vote Seikou on Ryuu Kishi (if that's what you meant).

*Hides in a bunker*

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by noobarta

Wasn't it that they were just really tan cause it's super hot there? Think it was mentioned in vol 1 when they talked about possibility of having to sell Tigre to Muozniel mines in case ransom wasn't paid

Yes. They are the equivalent of the middle-eastern race archetype in fantasy RPGs for this series. Their country is also the only one that advocates the practice of slavery.

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Actually, that jerk (cant recall his name now) actually became a nice guy after the incident. Shaved his own head in shame for screwing Tigre with the bad bow (as a apology), and became Tigre's guard and worshiper. They ended up playing cards in the Barrack all the time.

Which became a problem since when Tigre was planning an escape, he was like "sorry Tigre-sama, please don't think about such things, if you escape I would get executed"

And Tigre felt hyper guilty and didn't do it.

Considering that the Vanadis who commands him was about to hand down his execution order, only to be recalled because of a prisoner's (rather reasonable) argument made in his defense despite screwing over said prisoner in the first place (who is actually much more skilled with the bow than he would ever be), it was a very humbling experience for Rurrick.

He didn't shave his own head; Elenore handed down an ultimatum to those who were in on the "prank". Since their lives were spared, they should think of the second most important thing to them and give it up - Rurrick chose his hair and lost a lot of his charisma with the ladies.

While he is Tigre's first loyal companion from the Zhcted side, he also observes Tigre during the campaigns they're in and finds his actions "interesting". Rurrick is also Tigre's go-to-guy for assessing the morale of the Zhcted troops during their campaign in Brune territory, as Tigre was concerned about their morale and their determination to follow Elenore.

[noobarta]

AT LAAAAAAAAST, I'VE FINISHED READING ALL THE PAGES IN ANIMESUKE, JCAFE AND VOL 1 IN BAKA TSUKI FORUMS~!!

I can finally sleep again TT_TT

Quick question-can anyone tell me what Ellen and Tigre's conversations were like in the last pic for vol 3 or 4?? It looks like they had a really tender moment together

And since there aren't any new translations/spoilers I can read I decided to throw around ideas/fantasies in my head. Ridiculously long so more like a fanfic to be honest. Hmm....maybe I'll do that one after I finally finish the moonlight sculptor fanfic I had to put off

Spoiler for fanfic:

1)Tigre's stuck on a snow mountain with one of the girls(preferably Ellen).

Lim delivers news of a village in the mountains and in dire need of supplies because of a recent famine. Ellen sets out with her usual group of 1000 soldiers plus Rurick, Lim, and Tigre but a sudden blizzard appears and they're all separated.

Their footing is poor and Ellen ends up fallings down a cliff with Tigre diving in after her. Ellen's leg is injured and they're forced to camp out in a cave they found.Unable to move because of the injury, Tigre's forced to bandage the wound as best he can.

First day she gets a really bad fever after the wound gets infected. Worried about her, Tigre goes out to look for herbs in the mountains where there's less snow. Ellen catches a fever. Tigre lifts part of her clothes so that he can wipe her sweat away. He spends the night tending to her and trying to keep her warm with a fire/body heat throughout the snowstorm.

Second day comes and the snowstorm's gone but their trail(how to get back to camp) is blown away. Ellen gets a cold despite his efforts and both of them are hungry so Tigre decides to go out and hunt what he can. He checks around the area to no avail as most of the animals are in hiding/sleeping. Desperate, Tigre decides to head to a nearby river in an attempt to find some animals. He sees a pack of wolves and gets ready to shoot one down an ice dragon appears out of nowhere and begins to gobble them down one after another.

Half in shock and half in fear, Tigre desperately attempts to hide himself. Three hours pass by quietly before he finally decides to move around again. He returns back to the cave with a few rabbits and a fox pelt. Ellen welcomes him in with a smile and Tigre replies back with a wry smile of his own, apologizing that he couldn’t get anything bigger. She begins to tease Tigre in her usual manner in an attempt to cheer him up.

Another snowstorm occurs but this time Tigre gets some unexpected guests. A female Lynx enters the cave covered in frozen fur, and tries to go further into the cave where it’s less cold. Tigre immediately readies his bow and the lynx crouches down while growling at him, claws and fangs at the ready. Both of them are ready to pounce on one another when suddenly a three Lynx cubs scurry into the cave in a playful manner, tackling and gnawing on each other’s fur as they roll around the ground. Neither the lynx nor Tigre are willing to make a move and eventually they make their way to Ellen who’s resting on the fox pelt where she plays with them. Both parties seem to reach a silent agreement and they rest in separate areas. Curiously enough, one of the cubs has taken a major liking to Tigre, especially his head. For some reason the cub forcefully climbs up Tigre’s body, and proceeds to sleep on his head, much to his chagrin. Ellen laughs at this ridiculous situation, and decides to call the cub Tigger as a play on Tigre’s name(other ones were Little Tiger, or Tigre 2 ;p)

Third day Tigre goes out with the Lynx mother and they manage to hunt down a large Bear together. The cubs roll around on the new blanket with joy and climb all over Tigre until they’re satisfied and then fall asleep in a little bundle, one on top of another stacked up high like a cake. A week later, Ellen’s wound have healed enough so that she can walk and they prepare leave the cave together. Tigre takes one last look at the cave and is flooded with a sense of nostalgia as he overlooks the cave he has painstakingly furnished. Tigger begins clawing at Tigre's leg. He smiles and pets the cub on his head once more before heading out. Three days later, Ellen and Tigre finally arrive at the village they had originally set out to.

A shadow runs toward Ellen, and upon closer inspection it’s found to be Lim. Both the girls exchange hugs and Ellen tells her about what happened.

“You didn’t do anything weird to Eleanora-sama, right?” asked Lim
He is unable to answer immediately. The memory of how the two of them kept each other warm during the blizzard was still fresh in his memory.

“….Oi, you little miscreant. Just what exactly did you do while I was away...?” questioned Lim as she drew out her sword, killing intent seemed to seep out of her.

“Now now Lim, everything’s fine. Nothing happened. I’m tired now so let’s go inside where it’s warm, okay? pleaded Ellen

“.....Sigh...Understood, Eleanora-sama. We’ve already prepared a fire and some food for you inside.” Answered Lim, turning back to face the village.

All of them head toward the village. The memories from the snowstorm were ones that the two of them would cherish forever.

Well that was long O_O

[Insane]

Originally Posted by noobarta

Spoiler for fanfic:

1)Tigre's stuck on a snow mountain with one of the girls(preferably Ellen).

Lim delivers news of a village in the mountains and in dire need of supplies because of a recent famine. Ellen sets out with her usual group of 1000 soldiers plus Rurick, Lim, and Tigre but a sudden blizzard appears and they're all separated.

Their footing is poor and Ellen ends up fallings down a cliff with Tigre diving in after her. Ellen's leg is injured and they're forced to camp out in a cave they found.Unable to move because of the injury, Tigre's forced to bandage the wound as best he can.

First day she gets a really bad fever after the wound gets infected. Worried about her, Tigre goes out to look for herbs in the mountains where there's less snow. Ellen catches a fever. Tigre lifts part of her clothes so that he can wipe her sweat away. He spends the night tending to her and trying to keep her warm with a fire/body heat throughout the snowstorm.

Second day comes and the snowstorm's gone but their trail(how to get back to camp) is blown away. Ellen gets a cold despite his efforts and both of them are hungry so Tigre decides to go out and hunt what he can. He checks around the area to no avail as most of the animals are in hiding/sleeping. Desperate, Tigre decides to head to a nearby river in an attempt to find some animals. He sees a pack of wolves and gets ready to shoot one down an ice dragon appears out of nowhere and begins to gobble them down one after another.

Half in shock and half in fear, Tigre desperately attempts to hide himself. Three hours pass by quietly before he finally decides to move around again. He returns back to the cave with a few rabbits and a fox pelt. Ellen welcomes him in with a smile and Tigre replies back with a wry smile of his own, apologizing that he couldn’t get anything bigger. She begins to tease Tigre in her usual manner in an attempt to cheer him up.

Another snowstorm occurs but this time Tigre gets some unexpected guests. A female Lynx enters the cave covered in frozen fur, and tries to go further into the cave where it’s less cold. Tigre immediately readies his bow and the lynx crouches down while growling at him, claws and fangs at the ready. Both of them are ready to pounce on one another when suddenly a three Lynx cubs scurry into the cave in a playful manner, tackling and gnawing on each other’s fur as they roll around the ground. Neither the lynx nor Tigre are willing to make a move and eventually they make their way to Ellen who’s resting on the fox pelt where she plays with them. Both parties seem to reach a silent agreement and they rest in separate areas. Curiously enough, one of the cubs has taken a major liking to Tigre, especially his head. For some reason the cub forcefully climbs up Tigre’s body, and proceeds to sleep on his head, much to his chagrin. Ellen laughs at this ridiculous situation, and decides to call the cub Tigger as a play on Tigre’s name(other ones were Little Tiger, or Tigre 2 ;p)

Third day Tigre goes out with the Lynx mother and they manage to hunt down a large Bear together. The cubs roll around on the new blanket with joy and climb all over Tigre until they’re satisfied and then fall asleep in a little bundle, one on top of another stacked up high like a cake. A week later, Ellen’s wound have healed enough so that she can walk and they prepare leave the cave together. Tigre takes one last look at the cave and is flooded with a sense of nostalgia as he overlooks the cave he has painstakingly furnished. Tigger begins clawing at Tigre's leg. He smiles and pets the cub on his head once more before heading out. Three days later, Ellen and Tigre finally arrive at the village they had originally set out to.

A shadow runs toward Ellen, and upon closer inspection it’s found to be Lim. Both the girls exchange hugs and Ellen tells her about what happened.

“You didn’t do anything weird to Eleanora-sama, right?” asked Lim
He is unable to answer immediately. The memory of how the two of them kept each other warm during the blizzard was still fresh in his memory.

“….Oi, you little miscreant. Just what exactly did you do while I was away...?” questioned Lim as she drew out her sword, killing intent seemed to seep out of her.

“Now now Lim, everything’s fine. Nothing happened. I’m tired now so let’s go inside where it’s warm, okay? pleaded Ellen

“.....Sigh...Understood, Eleanora-sama. We’ve already prepared a fire and some food for you inside.” Answered Lim, turning back to face the village.

All of them head toward the village. The memories from the snowstorm were ones that the two of them would cherish forever.

Well that was long O_O

Whoa, it's quite good, dude! Feels like reading proper translations

[Kleeyook]

If I were to write fanfic, I'd introduce a race similar to the Mongol but with flamethrower that Chinese improved from Greek Fire, to slaughter the knights of Brune by burning them alive inside their full plate armor...

I think it's so dumb to say that the archers are cowards when the knights wear full body armor that arrow can't penetrate.

Mongol used to fight against the knights, Teutonic Knight and Templars, but I don't think their victory is definite. They won, but they have superior number.

Hell, Mongol was driven away by Vietnamese, while they could conquer Southern Song Dynasty China, destroyed Iraq and Ancient Burma. It makes me wonder what would happen if the knights were to meet Southeast Asians during that time.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

If I were to write fanfic, I'd introduce a race similar to the Mongol but with flamethrower that Chinese improved from Greek Fire, to slaughter the knights of Brune by burning them alive inside their full plate armor...

I think it's so dumb to say that the archers are cowards when the knights wear full body armor that arrow can't penetrate.

Mongol used to fight against the knights, Teutonic Knight and Templars, but I don't think their victory is definite. They won, but they have superior number.

Hell, Mongol was driven away by Vietnamese, while they could conquer Southern Song Dynasty China, destroyed Iraq and Ancient Burma. It makes me wonder what would happen if the knights were to meet Southeast Asians during that time.

Archers can penetrate knight armor...read about how the battle of Anglecourt? where the french knights were decimated by British Archers, given heavy those armor were, a straight arrow can knock you off a horse, then you are screwed while the other side come for you and finish you off.

As for the Vietnamese....they had two advantages the other 3 nations you named didn't have

1) A huge jungle which deter cavalry. (AKA mongol strength)

2) WAAAAY out of their way. the Mongols has to conquer/administer huge swath of land which might be prone to harassment and rebellion (The logistic chains would had been a nightmare). If Vietnam was located on the Manchurian border, the story might turn out way different.

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Archers can penetrate knight armor...read about how the battle of Anglecourt? where the french knights were decimated by British Archers, given heavy those armor were, a straight arrow can knock you off a horse, then you are screwed while the other side come for you and finish you off.

Actually, penetrating knight armor has been debunked, here's a guy that actually did a test too: http://www.isegoria.net/2011/08/longbow-vs-armor/

At the battle of Agincourt, the french knights were held at bay due to stakes and muddy ground, the archers did wound the horses effectively though. The soldiers eventually all dismounted and charged on foot and their armor did manage to withstand much of the bow fire and got into melee .. but were so exhausted and disoriented at this point the archers and other British soldiers annihilated them with melee weapons such as hatchets.

Here's also what looks to be an updated wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...cavalry_attack

[Kleeyook]

Well, steel head arrow can surely penetrate mail armor, but thick full plate armor!? I don't think so.

However, if we were to shoot the horse to make the knights fall, then start using hammers to (gang up) slaughter them, it'd be another story.

Or just burn them alive, using flamethrower or set them in tar and light them up...

I just think that the knights with full plate armor and horse telling others who don't have access to that not to be a coward and come facing them in a duel all deserve to die a horrible death in their own armor.

[willx]

^ I find this sort of attitude exists a lot even today. Just have to learn to see it, understand it, and move on.

Ultimately many people that are wealthy and financially successful rationalize and extend their success as 1) being rightfully deserved and 2) because of 1, therefore their worldviews, and their perspective regarding other things is also right. I can imagine in particular it becomes an issue with nobility.

I also see it all day and every day at work. Rich old men that think that just because they're rich (and therefore successful) that their perspective on the world is validated. I worry sometimes if I'd ever become so close-minded myself

[Insane]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

Well, steel head arrow can surely penetrate mail armor, but thick full plate armor!? I don't think so.

However, if we were to shoot the horse to make the knights fall, then start using hammers to (gang up) slaughter them, it'd be another story.

Or just burn them alive, using flamethrower or set them in tar and light them up.

Dude, somehow i feel that your reference for armaments in war is very sadistic and barbaric. Also, isn't wielding hammers in battlefield rather inconvenient? Usually soldiers wield weapon equipped with sharp edge to allow for more damage.