AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2016-06-21, 10:39   Link #1
Triple_R
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 37
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

This thread is for all Windermere/NUNs War Discussion.

This thread has been created in order to free up episode threads from constant Windermere/NUNs war discussion. In particular, any discussion on the moral dimension of this war should be placed within this thread. So if you disagree with certain aspects of the war effort, for either side (or both sides), then this is the thread to use to voice those disagreements. Please do your best to keep such discussion off of the episode threads.

Normal spoiler rules apply for this thread, and keep in mind that discussion focus should remain on what's presented in the Macross Delta show (and/or its 4 tie-in mangas).

Please be polite to your fellow forum members and try and keep the discussion on topic, and above all, enjoy!




MOD EDIT: I would like to emphasize being polite to your fellow forum members since this thread is going to be treated like a thread from the News & Politics forum.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2016-06-21 at 13:07.
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 17:35   Link #2
Tak
Catholic = Cat addiction?
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
So a bit about the NUN...

The UNG (United Nations Government) became the NUNG (New United Nations Government) following events of Macross VFX-2. This was a logical course, for the logistical nightmare posed to an ever expanding UNG meant it was difficult for a centralized government to tackle every problem in the galaxy. Never mind trying to enforce central authority over the overwhelming Zentradi population was impossible from the get-go. They still outnumber humanity today, and unlike the latter, every space-borne Zentradi is a warrior. The Zentradi today functions as allies to the NUN, and the keyword here is 'allies'.

If we are to draw a historical analogy to the NUN post VFX-2, it would be akin to the visions of the founders of early United States, where states are sovereign entities, but a central government is still responsible for conducting foreign policy, taxation and raise a military in case of war. This is the system of the NUN. Planets & colonies are sovereign, but the NUN regulates taxation, interstellar travel, provides defense, setup HQs and install attaches. The NUN is also responsible for representing member states in foreign policy and settling disputes. Moreover, as a general rule, the NUN do not interfere with the domestic policies of sovereign colonial or planetary entities unless they come into conflict with NUN interests. For example, some colonies prohibits full-sized Zentradi, some colonies allow cybernetics, some colonies deem foreign organisms illegal... etc. But orbit and beyond fall under NUN jurisdiction.

Then we also have PMCs (Private Military Corporations). They are not completely independent entities. They are subsidiaries of the NUN and must abide by the latter's authority. When Jeffrey Wilder decided to go full 'pirate' in Frontier, his actions were initially considered treasonous. Corporations such as Chaos can be rented out, but going back to my previous point(s), when interest of Chaos conflict with NUN, the latter takes priority.

- Tak
__________________
WE SERVE BEER COLDER THAN YOUR EX'S HEART!!

I am not to be held responsible for anything I said or did before coffee.

Last edited by Tak; 2016-06-22 at 00:14.
Tak is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 18:27   Link #3
Triple_R
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 37
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
To kick things off, and add some levity to this discussion...



So... who's Team Cap, and who's Team Iron Man?
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 18:47   Link #4
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 43
Team Cap. Of course.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 21:53   Link #5
Dark Wing
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 32
The Windermereans are actively going after the NUNS even after being left alone of several years. They have no actually claim to why they are fighting. Which basicly comes down to hiers to the protocaltur and self proclaimed guardians of their star system.

Sure they may have bone to pick with the NUNS but why drag the the other planets into it by enslavin....I mean "forced" liberation.
__________________
I can only destroy... Don't worry I'll fix it... KCALB x ETIHW, The Gray Garden
Dark Wing is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 22:03   Link #6
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 32
I have little sympathy for a faction that has engaged in a war of aggression, is enslaving the citizens of its cluster through mind control, treats them as disposable cannon fodder, and outright has genocide as its stated objective.

I really find it hard to understand why there are people supporting Windermere in this.
__________________
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 22:13   Link #7
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 43
Same here. There isn't much to add to what you said, but Windermere and its supporters find fresh ways to piss me off every week.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 22:46   Link #8
AkitoW013
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Same here. There isn't much to add to what you said, but Windermere and its supporters find fresh ways to piss me off every week.
Try to ignore them, that's what I do every week.

They have little to no sympathy from me, unless we see something that can forgive them, everything are pretty much against them.
with the mind control and KILL THEM ALL from Keith, I won't feel any sympathy for them when they will fall (except a big smile on my face).

Last edited by Kotohono; 2016-06-22 at 20:00. Reason: that word choice is a going a bit too far.
AkitoW013 is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 22:50   Link #9
Darthtabby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Given the way they've been billed, I'm inclined to think the Windermereans are intended to be sympathetic antagonists. As such, I'm inclined to question many of the assumptions people make about them. Like mass mind control enslavement of the entire cluster being their end game objective, or that "we will annihilate the earthlings and those allied with them" should be assumed to mean genocide instead of "we'll crush their military." It's possible people's assumptions are correct and I'm wrong, but why should I rush to a conclusion when the series hasn't finished yet?

The "true heirs to the protoculture belief" is troubling, but frankly up until Gramia mentioned it last episode Roid was the only Windermerean who talked like that. The knights seem more concerned with the WMD that destroyed one of their cities and messed up their planet. Keith outright thinks the idea that Windermereans are the true heirs of the protoculture is bs. I suspect if Windermere had the weapons they have now at their disposal back then, they would have driven the NUG/NUNS out of the cluster right then and there rather than waiting seven years.

(And yes, their methods are bad, but I find it kind of hard not to sympathize with a group that's been hurt that badly. I suspect having your people mass murdered with a WMD that scarred your planet to the point where you can literally feel it is the kind of thing that can trample moral qualms about retaliatory methods into the dust.)

As for the NUN, I wish the NUN rep had been portrayed as cold and ruthlessly pragmatic rather than as an over the top smirking douchebag. I think NUNS has to take the threat Windermere poses to the cluster seriously, and I can see a certain logic in the NUNS plan to destroy the ruins since they're so important to the Windermerean plan. On the other hand, these off worlders are making a decision that could jeopardize the lives and environment of the Ragnans rather than leaving that decision to the Ragnans themselves. Which kind of backs up the Windermerean assertion that NUNS doesn't deal with the locals on equal terms.

I don't agree with everything Thess argues, but I do think she made a good point when she said that Chaos are the good guys in this series, not NUNS.
Darthtabby is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 22:54   Link #10
LoweGear
Secret Society BLANKET
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
To kick things off, and add some levity to this discussion...



So... who's Team Cap, and who's Team Iron Man?
Actually, both Tony and Cap would be all for going up against Windermere at this point, they're not the type to agree to mind control afterall

This would be more accurate:

__________________

On Flying: "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
LoweGear is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 23:09   Link #11
Triple_R
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 37
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Actually, both Tony and Cap would be all for going up against Windermere at this point, they're not the type to agree to mind control afterall
You're probably right, but of the two, I can more easily imagine Tony sympathizing with Windermere. Or at least sympathizing with Roid. Since Roid is a scientist conducting research on the protoculture ruins, which a scientist/inventor like Tony would probably see value in. For much the same reason, I think Tony would dislike the idea of NUNs blowing up Ragna's protoculture ruins without first thoroughly studying them.

Basically, yeah, both Cap and Tony would be against Windermere, but if you have to pick one to champion the "Windermere are sympathetic antagonists" side, Tony is the right pick, imo.


Quote:

This would be more accurate:

Yeah, that definitely fits. Well-done.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2016-06-21, 23:38   Link #12
Mistyclear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Did anyone ever notice that if it's the protagonist(s) that are doing the whole revenge or brainwashing thing then so many fans find it completely acceptable and in fact encourage said protagonist(s)... (Dearest Lelouch one of the more popular (famous) anime characters and he's infamous for brainwashing/ manipulating quite a lot of people (for often tragic results) grant it maybe not millions (at least I don't think so...)and don't even get me started on Light)
Then again I'm not saying what Windermere is doing is correct (hell by my own morals I dislike it a lot) I'm just saying fans can be a little uh morally ambiguous in concerns to certain protagonists actions.
Mistyclear is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 00:38   Link #13
kuromitsu
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
^Personally I have a sneaking suspicion that if the main Windermere cast was made up of pretty girls and not pretty boys this conversation either wouldn't be happening, or there would be way less vitriol, and people would be a lot more understanding toward the Wind faction. :P
kuromitsu is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 00:42   Link #14
Tenzen12
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You're probably right, but of the two, I can more easily imagine Tony sympathizing with Windermere. Or at least sympathizing with Roid. Since Roid is a scientist conducting research on the protoculture ruins, which a scientist/inventor like Tony would probably see value in. For much the same reason, I think Tony would dislike the idea of NUNs blowing up Ragna's protoculture ruins without first thoroughly studying them.

Basically, yeah, both Cap and Tony would be against Windermere, but if you have to pick one to champion the "Windermere are sympathetic antagonists" side, Tony is the right pick, imo.




Yeah, that definitely fits. Well-done.
Nah, knowing Tony he would side with NUNS regarding ruins.

Quote:
Cap: Tony you can't blow up ruins, it's historical heritage! And you might destroy half of Ragna!

Tony: Who you think I am? I am telling you I am genius. Protoculture artifacts are piece of cake for me. Nothing can go wrong when it's me who blows them up.


cap: This is insanity! I will call Mr.F

Tony: Suite yourself he already approved it lol
And this is how Ragna became uninhabitable, regardless out of remaining 30 percent of survivors all of them agreed it was still better option than listen stupid scoutboy opinions.

But yeah Tony is definitely in Mirage camp that much is clear.
__________________
"I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)
Tenzen12 is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 00:51   Link #15
Mistyclear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
^Personally I have a sneaking suspicion that if the main Windermere cast was made up of pretty girls and not pretty boys this conversation either wouldn't be happening, or there would be way less vitriol, and people would be a lot more understanding toward the Wind faction. :P
That's unfortunately probably true.... I can think of a certain yandere girl, if she were male I'm quite certain many would want her to die painfully... But because she's female she has quite the large fan base
Mistyclear is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 00:51   Link #16
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
Did anyone ever notice that if it's the protagonist(s) that are doing the whole revenge or brainwashing thing then so many fans find it completely acceptable and in fact encourage said protagonist(s)... (Dearest Lelouch one of the more popular (famous) anime characters and he's infamous for brainwashing/ manipulating quite a lot of people (for often tragic results) grant it maybe not millions (at least I don't think so...)and don't even get me started on Light)
Then again I'm not saying what Windermere is doing is correct (hell by my own morals I dislike it a lot) I'm just saying fans can be a little uh morally ambiguous in concerns to certain protagonists actions.
There's a reason why I habitually call him Ledouche. No, I did not find his actions morally acceptable at all and was glad it bit him in the ass so often.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 01:01   Link #17
Mistyclear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
There's a reason why I habitually call him Ledouche. No, I did not find his actions morally acceptable at all and was glad it bit him in the ass so often.
Wasn't criticizing you personally though
And congrats to you for sticking to your morals even in anime (and it's multitude of characters) (NOT sarcasm)
Mistyclear is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 01:16   Link #18
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
Wasn't criticizing you personally though
And congrats to you for sticking to your morals even in anime (and it's multitude of characters) (NOT sarcasm)
I wasn't taking it as personal criticism, however I found it important to clear up where I stand personally. Morally reprehensible behaviour stays morally reprehensible, no matter how good looking the character (male or female).
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 01:52   Link #19
Tempester
Japanese Culture Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
^Personally I have a sneaking suspicion that if the main Windermere cast was made up of pretty girls and not pretty boys this conversation either wouldn't be happening, or there would be way less vitriol, and people would be a lot more understanding toward the Wind faction. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
That's unfortunately probably true.... I can think of a certain yandere girl, if she were male I'm quite certain many would want her to die painfully... But because she's female she has quite the large fan base
Can't speak for others but I can certainly say that it is possible for me to feel strong hatred and vitriol towards female characters and antagonists who are attempted to be portrayed in a sympathetic manner. (Read: Futaki Kanata) So I doubt my position on the Aerial Knights and Windermerean powers would change much if they were gender-swapped. Besides, even I can appreciate how fabulous the knights are.
Tempester is offline  
Old 2016-06-22, 04:39   Link #20
LoweGear
Secret Society BLANKET
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
There's a reason why I habitually call him Ledouche. No, I did not find his actions morally acceptable at all and was glad it bit him in the ass so often.
In the case of Lelouche, we at least know of his motivations, and that it isn't rooted in him being a spoiled, arrogant brat with self-entitlement issues. Lelouche is more "Make a better world for Nunnaly and get revenge against his father", which are more understandable motives than "they tainted our wind!".

I don't think anybody thinks that Lelouche was totally a good guy though, and that's actually one of the things about him, is that he's upfront amoral, and knows it. He's not trying to be a completely self-righteous douche like the Windermerians are being, nor does he try to justify his actions beneath the cloak of nobility. He doesn't convince himself that he's the good guy, and even when he's using the mantle of Zero he knows that it's only really a means to an end. This is quite unlike the Windermerians, who try to justify their actions as liberating the worlds from NUNS, even though they themselves are putting the people of said worlds under heel through mind control. Basically, Lelouche is more likeable simply because, as far as his moral stance is concerned, he knows that what he's doing is evil, whereas with the Windermerians they're so thoroughly convinced that they are right and just despite the means they use in their crusade.

The Windermerians also lose to Lelouche for not having the latter's FABULOUSNESS and sheer awesome charisma
__________________

On Flying: "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
LoweGear is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.