[PC/PS3/360/WiiU] Mass Effect 3

[synaesthetic]

Well, my Shepard became Mecha-Cthulhu Goddess, fixed the mass relays and went somewhere quiet for a while to watch over the galaxy. Reapers aren't going to be strolling down the avenue, you know.

Also if you watch the end cutscenes closely, the Reaper ground forces all die. After all, the Reapers don't need them anymore.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Key Board

.

Reapers are Terminators
Reapers are Borg

.

Not necessarily disagreeing or agreeing with the main portion of your post, but your two examples are quite bad. In both cases, the big bad was eventually humanized and became sympathetic. Whether it be Arnold who was the hero in 2 of the 3 films, or the billions of innocents who are forcibly converted to the Borg hive mind but can still be changed back, both examples eventually lead to peace (of a sort) after they are humanized (synthesized ).

Next time, go with the Cybermen. You'll get better traction...even if they aren't true synthetics.

[synaesthetic]

The Reapers are supposed to evoke a more Lovecraftian image than anything--hell, in ME2 during the Derelict Reaper mission, one of the audio logs left by the dead/indoctrinated scientists actually says something similar to the iconic line, "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The Reapers are supposed to evoke a more Lovecraftian image than anything--hell, in ME2 during the Derelict Reaper mission, one of the audio logs left by the dead/indoctrinated scientists actually says something similar to the iconic line, "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."

"Chandana said the ship was dead. We trusted him. He was right. But even a dead god can dream."

[Eragon]

This line from the AI, "Reapers are my creation. I control them.", throws a wrench in any judgement we may want to form of the Reapers. I mean, how much control does the AI have over them(from the Control ending, it seems it would have had a whole lot of it)? Do the Reapers have an independent will? In which case, what is it?

I don't think we are ever given an explicit answer to that. I liked Sovereign's version, "We are each a nation, independent...." So, was Sovereign an exception or was he bull-shitting about all that?

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not necessarily disagreeing or agreeing with the main portion of your post, but your two examples are quite bad. In both cases, the big bad was eventually humanized and became sympathetic. Whether it be Arnold who was the hero in 2 of the 3 films, or the billions of innocents who are forcibly converted to the Borg hive mind but can still be changed back, both examples eventually lead to peace (of a sort) after they are humanized (synthesized ).

Next time, go with the Cybermen. You'll get better traction...even if they aren't true synthetics.

Noted

But my point is that while you can attempt to rehabilitate their victims, these are factions that you can not reach an understanding, reach an agreement and settle down with.

The Federation destroyed the borg
The humans destroyed the machines (sometimes more than once because of time loops)

These are not like the bugs from Ender's Game where everything is just a cultural misunderstanding.
Nor they are like Geth which share some common ground and mindset with organics, and hence we can empathize with them.

..

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Eragon

I don't think we are ever given an explicit answer to that. I liked Sovereign's version, "We are each a nation, independent...." So, was Sovereign an exception or was he bull-shitting about all that?

RETCON.

But yeah, the Reapers, Sovereign and Harbinger... they worked better when they were mysterious monstrosities, like the Lovecraftian horrors that Synae brought up. Revealing the motivations for such beings is a crapshoot that more often than not falls flat. Tiresias put it best.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Hey Sovereign, why are the Reapers doing this?

Puny mortals, our motives are beyond your understanding.

Hey Harbinger, why are the Reapers doing this?

Puny mortals, our motives are beyond your understanding.

Hey Reaper Destroyer on Rannoch, why are the Reapers doing this?

Puny mortals, our motives are beyond your understanding.

Hey you last-minute-blue-kid-thingy, why are the Reapers doing this?

Dood, that's so easy, even primitive monkeys like you will get it - synthetics will always kill organics, so we will kill you before your creation does that. Got it?

[Key Board]

Sovereign and Harbinger clearly had an ego

there were not simply just doing their job

they loved it

..

[Eragon]

Control ending actually becomes more viable since, the Reapers were controlled before and did pretty much everything the AI wanted, its pretty logical to assume that it would work when you control them as well.

The introduction of the AI just brought the Reapers down to the level of tools.

[synaesthetic]

Honestly I liked the simple explanation given in ME2 during the suicide mission--the "harvest" is the Reaper method of reproduction.

That just makes it even more chilling. Leave everything else unexplained--why are they here, why are they destroying advanced civilizations and consuming them?

So creepy. So, so creepy.

Explaining the Reapers--especially in such a cavalier fashion, with infodump exposition--really put Villain Decay into full overdrive.

Though Leviathan kinda saves it from the scrappy heap by essentially explaining that the Intelligence is basically logic-bombed and insane. That brings back a little of that creeping hopelessness from when they were Mecha-Cthulhu. Just a little.

[Rising Dragon]

Maybe, but it came too little, too late. The damage had already been done to the franchise's story as a whole.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I dont know about that. Uplifting has been a strong scifi concept in the series, its even used extensively by the Protheans and has been used by many of the Council races. Even the Reapers use a form of uplifting, only turning organic into synthetic. Synthesis is, arguably, just a galaxy wide uplifting process (using preexisting code already found in the Reapers). Looking at it from that perspective the only details needed are power (which all the mass relays should be able to provide) and computational power needed to analyze and decipher how to uplift each species (which all the Reapers combined should have). So, using the magic of the series that already exists, we can change the galaxy.

(Its changing complete synthetics like EDI and the Geth to something biological that I find puzzling, but I imagine the creators would simply say they use a reverse process for creating Husks in order to introduce the organic to the synthetic.)

The thing is.

If Mass Effect 3 was a standalone your points are sensible.

The problem is where in Mass Effect 1 and 2 was the theme all about Synthetics vs. Organics?

In ME1 the Geth were just there attacking, end of story.

In ME2 you find out that not all Geth are bad and that they want to co-exist in peace. You also come across EDI and despite being an unshackled AI she protects you.

In ME3 everything about the Geth and EDI are thrown out the window as it bogs down into a Synthetic vs Organics which makes zero sense. It doesn't matter what the Geth and EDI have done as the argument goes that eventually they will destroy organics.

The stupid thing is that animals FIGHT and destroy each other every hour and day so why doesn't anybody look to stop that? Why does it start with synthetics?

When did ME get down to Synthetics vs Organics?

Why couldn't they just keep the story simple and made it that the Reapers simply harvest every 50,000 year to reproduce and not out of some silly war between synthetics and organics that doesn't come until the 3rd part of the trilogy?

I mean if ME1 had that theme then I'd think ME3 would stand better because it'd be consistent.

[james0246]

^I've never really regarded "synthetic vs. organic" as a theme per see in any of the games, even the third with it's final choices. It's more an aspect of the evolving storyline rather than the subject or topic of the story. Rather, it is the theme of cycles and how we deal with them that I found to be more central to the entire storyline, and synthetic vs. organic is just one of many different cycles being shown (in some respects it is the core cycle the Catalyst is concerned with, but while it is the emphasis of the literal discussion, the subtext is not truly focused on synthetics alone, but rather a look at the human race as a whole and just how we will continue to evolve (if we will continue to evolve)).

That being said, I think several are misunderstanding the flow of the storyline concerning synthetics vs. organics. There is no sudden leap to this dilemma, rather it is a constantly evolving storyline starting from the first game and concluding with the Catalyst.

To put it in perspective, Shepard from ME1 would have gladly chosen Destruction immediately without question. At the time, he/she had only known the "evils" of synthetics (from the Geth killing innocent civilians, to the Husks, Saren being taken over and ultimately Sovereign itself). It is only in the second game that this basic storyline changes as Shepard learns new negative details concerning Synthetics (they change organics into Reapers, not just servant classes or Husks), but he/she is also introduced to positive details as the role of the Geth expands and we learn of their growing "individuality" of EDI. Finally, with the third game, the role of the Reapers expands greatly (from their core details, to the rise of new slave classes created from the conversion of organic to synthetic), but the role of the Geth and EDI reaches it's zenith as their very "souls" become central to the growing sub-dilemma of what to do about synthetics. Finally, the Catalysts introduces several distinct choices that all seek to eliminate the potential threat of this repeated dilemma of synthetic vs. organic. The choices, in turn, can only be decided based on how you played the game up to this point (whether you followed the continued evolution of the synthetic storyline, or you chose to only continue to see them as Shepard did in ME1), and it becomes your core beliefs concerning these characters that facilitate the discussion of the synthetics as well as organics.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, I think several are misunderstanding the flow of the storyline concerning synthetics vs. organics. There is no sudden leap to this dilemma, rather it is a constantly evolving storyline starting from the first game and concluding with the Catalyst.

To put it in perspective, Shepard from ME1 would have gladly chosen Destruction immediately without question. At the time, he/she had only known the "evils" of synthetics (from the Geth killing innocent civilians, to the Husks, Saren being taken over and ultimately Sovereign itself). It is only in the second game that this basic storyline changes as Shepard learns new negative details concerning Synthetics (they change organics into Reapers, not just servant classes or Husks), but he/she is also introduced to positive details as the role of the Geth expands and we learn of their growing "individuality" of EDI. Finally, with the third game, the role of the Reapers expands greatly (from their core details, to the rise of new slave classes created from the conversion of organic to synthetic), but the role of the Geth and EDI reaches it's zenith as their very "souls" become central to the growing sub-dilemma of what to do about synthetics. Finally, the Catalysts introduces several distinct choices that all seek to eliminate the potential threat of this repeated dilemma of synthetic vs. organic. The choices, in turn, can only be decided based on how you played the game up to this point (whether you followed the continued evolution of the synthetic storyline, or you chose to only continue to see them as Shepard did in ME1), and it becomes your core beliefs concerning these characters that facilitate the discussion of the synthetics as well as organics.

Except none of it matters because the Reapers are "correct" in that eventually synthetics will destroy all organics. There is NO discussion to be had and it was a waste of time through ME2 and ME3 to even bother with it.

All those conversations and work you did to get EDI to value organic life and the Geth and Quarians to work together is irrelevant and its those things that pisses off a lot of people.

If those options weren't there to begin with then I'd understand Shepard choosing destroy/control.

The fact is that Shepard through sheer will and reputation is capable of getting the Quarians and Geth to come to terms with each other and to work together. Shepard didn't need any space magic to do it but through his own capabilities. For EDI you could encourage her to have a relationship with Jeff and once the ball gets rolling both of them have no doubts about it despite being synthetic and organic. By the end there's no doubt about it. Jeff doesn't say anything like, "I wish Edi and I could have kids or so......" and the Geth/Quarians don't mention any "doubt" about working together again.

The fact that Synthesis is a way of forcing everyone to be the same just goes against that. No matter how hard Shepard works he still needs space magic despite the evidence that goes to show that it can work. The Geth never outright wanted to destroy organics and immediately settled down once the Quarians lowered their guns and in Javik's cycle his organics were winning the war against the Synthetics and you have EDI that acts like an organic. If the Quarians were still fighting the Geth by the time Shepard chooses Synthesis THEN I'd understand but they're not and there's nothing to indicate that they're willing to fight again.

It's like Javik who again Casey stated has nothing to do with the story but he does. No matter how hard you work to broker peace he keeps repeating the phrase, "Machines cannot be trusted and that Synthetics will always destroys Organics". You want to prove him wrong but then the Catalyst at the end "says" that he's right and you need space magic to achieve peace.

Again everything that you did since ME1 doesn't matter in ME3.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

All those conversations and work you did to get EDI to value organic life and the Geth and Quarians to work together is irrelevant and its those things that pisses off a lot of people.

The third ending is only possible if you do all of this work (especially the Geth and Quarian alliance). (Note, I divorce the silly online points from the story content.) Consequently, those discussions and understandings do matter.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The fact is that Shepard through sheer will and reputation is capable of getting the Quarians and Geth to come to terms with each other and to work together. Shepard didn't need any space magic to do it but through his own capabilities.

Aye, but what happens when the next synthetic life is created and it rebels (for whatever reason) against it's organic masters and there is no Shepard to save the day. For the two cycles we know of a synthetic threat has risen. With the Geth (and a Shepard) a peace was brokered, but the Protheans were still fighting their synthetic uprising when the Reapers struck, and presumably many other cycles have had the same problem.

Just because peace was established in this instance doesn't mean peace would always be achievable or even desired. Maybe the Geth/Quarian peace or the EDI/Joker romance are just outliers? There is no way for the player character to know...save for the eons old VI that tells you point blank they are outliers (which, really wouldn't have any reason to lie)...

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Geth/Quarians don't mention any "doubt" about working together again.

To be fair, besides the Geth (who would automatically be unanimous), there is some slight surprise concerning the inclusion of the Geth. Simply because peace was established, doesn't mean it is the end-all-be-all peace and no possibility of war would ever exist again. At the end, the Geth are still the great other amongst the alliance of species, and it is extremely hard to combat the fear of the other. I expect everyone would have been able to work out their differences in time, but that is just with the Geth.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The fact that Synthesis is a way of forcing everyone to be the same just goes against that.

Not really.

Reapers are just tools (even if driven slightly made) to "preserve" the galaxy's organic life. As I said previously, there has obviously been enough conflict for the Reapers creation to be necessary. Their method, however brutal, worked (well, it worked for their basic purpose of preserving organic life). The method would work again if Shepard and company had not been able to build the crucible in time. The Catalyst shows, though, that this method does not really work any longer, and it knows this specifically do to your actions concerning the Geth and the Quarians (again, ignoring the non-story online points).

So, we are offered two choices initially: Stay in the cycle and become a new harbinger, creating a new peace but most probably needing to start the cycles over again in the future; Destroy the cycle entirely, but seemingly only delay dooming the galaxy years down the line when a new synthetic life emerges that can't be quelled with diplomacy (something like the Cybermen ). Neither choice is particularly good, especially for anyone who just wanted to "win" the game, but they are both understandable (and I think they both correspond quite well with certain gameplay strategies). But, there is still a third choice, only unlocked after brokering peace with the Quarians and the Geth.

In the third option, you are able to eliminate the distinction between synthetic and organic. Personally, I do not see it really as a distinction between synthetic and organic, but rather a distinction between created and creator. The synthetic, no matter their disposition, are always created. Consequently, they are always, at least at first, considered lesser beings. Sadly, this seems to always lead to war (at least from the Catalysts words it does), which in turn can lead to annihilation of one or both species. The Reapers were created to protect the against this annihilation. This cycle is also shown amongst organics: The Krogan were uplifted (created) to fight Rachni; When they finished, they attempted to rebel against those that uplifted them (created them). This is seemingly a fundamental cycle of the ME universe.

Consequently, Synthesis eliminates the boundaries of creator and createe. There is no "master" or "slave". Everyone is now equal (arguably, both are possibly improved as well). Individuality is retained (much the same as Shepard was half synthetic by the end of the series, so to are all organic life, in fact all life is now based on his/her equilibrium) so conflict can still exist - Vorcha are still Vorcha after all, and the Batarians are still Batarians, etc. What happens next is unknown, and in many respects inconsequential.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

The third ending is only possible if you do all of this work (especially the Geth and Quarian alliance). (Note, I divorce the silly online points from the story content.) Consequently, those discussions and understandings do matter.

No actually you don't.

You just go on MP and get a very high EMS score or do all the assets.

Aye, but what happens when the next synthetic life is created and it rebels (for whatever reason) against it's organic masters and there is no Shepard to save the day. For the two cycles we know of a synthetic threat has risen. With the Geth (and a Shepard) a peace was brokered, but the Protheans were still fighting their synthetic uprising when the Reapers struck, and presumably many other cycles have had the same problem.

Just because peace was established in this instance doesn't mean peace would always be achievable or even desired. Maybe the Geth/Quarian peace or the EDI/Joker romance are just outliers? There is no way for the player character to know...save for the eons old VI that tells you point blank they are outliers (which, really wouldn't have any reason to lie)...

The only thing I have against that argument is in regards to the Genophage project.

A common element in these stories is that the protagonists always will choose the "Freedom" over the "False peace" because it's the right thing and people have the right to choose what they want. The future should be their's to control.

For the Krogan you are told that if you cure them they'll go back to their warlike ways even with Wrex and Bakara around. However Shepard can argue back saying the Krogan earned it and that they deserve a chance for redemption. By your argument then we shouldn't have cured the Genophage.

So my question is if we argue that why are you arguing that the Geth or other future synthetics will rebel? Shepard is willing to put faith and hope in the new Krogan but he shouldn't for the Synthetics because there aren't any? The difference between this and the Geth is that even Garrus mentions that they should do all they can to protect Wrex.

And like I said then they should've explored more rather than just bluntly state it against you.

It would've been better if you talk to Tali or the Geth Prime and they note some "issues" are starting to arise and such or Joker mentioning some uneasieness about EDI. Then that would've further justified the Synthesis as being the "Final" key to solving the issue. By the time you reach the catalyst there isn't any doubt for the synthetics.

To be fair, besides the Geth (who would automatically be unanimous), there is some slight surprise concerning the inclusion of the Geth. Simply because peace was established, doesn't mean it is the end-all-be-all peace and no possibility of war would ever exist again. At the end, the Geth are still the great other amongst the alliance of species, and it is extremely hard to combat the fear of the other. I expect everyone would have been able to work out their differences in time, but that is just with the Geth.

Again same thing with Genophage. Since we're giving the Krogan a chance why not the Geth as well? What gives the Krogan more rights than the Geth?

Reapers are just tools (even if driven slightly made) to "preserve" the galaxy's organic life. As I said previously, there has obviously been enough conflict for the Reapers creation to be necessary. Their method, however brutal, worked (well, it worked for their basic purpose of preserving organic life). The method would work again if Shepard and company had not been able to build the crucible in time. The Catalyst shows, though, that this method does not really work any longer, and it knows this specifically do to your actions concerning the Geth and the Quarians (again, ignoring the non-story online points).

No it doesn't because it still says that conflict will happen regardless.

The only difference is that Shepard is the first organic to actually reach the Catalyst and that has changed things.

So, we are offered two choices initially: Stay in the cycle and become a new harbinger, creating a new peace but most probably needing to start the cycles over again in the future; Destroy the cycle entirely, but seemingly only delay dooming the galaxy years down the line when a new synthetic life emerges that can't be quelled with diplomacy (something like the Cybermen ). Neither choice is particularly good, especially for anyone who just wanted to "win" the game, but they are both understandable (and I think they both correspond quite well with certain gameplay strategies). But, there is still a third choice, only unlocked after brokering peace with the Quarians and the Geth.

In the third option, you are able to eliminate the distinction between synthetic and organic. Personally, I do not see it really as a distinction between synthetic and organic, but rather a distinction between created and creator. The synthetic, no matter their disposition, are always created. Consequently, they are always, at least at first, considered lesser beings. Sadly, this seems to always lead to war (at least from the Catalysts words it does), which in turn can lead to annihilation of one or both species. The Reapers were created to protect the against this annihilation. This cycle is also shown amongst organics: The Krogan were uplifted (created) to fight Rachni; When they finished, they attempted to rebel against those that uplifted them (created them). This is seemingly a fundamental cycle of the ME universe.

Consequently, Synthesis eliminates the boundaries of creator and createe. There is no "master" or "slave". Everyone is now equal (arguably, both are possibly improved as well). Individuality is retained (much the same as Shepard was half synthetic by the end of the series, so to are all organic life, in fact all life is now based on his/her equilibrium) so conflict can still exist - Vorcha are still Vorcha after all, and the Batarians are still Batarians, etc. What happens next is unknown, and in many respects inconsequential.

I'm going to have to look again but synthesis is only possible with a very high EMS score and is irrelevant to the Geth/Quarians.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

No actually you don't.

You just go on MP and get a very high EMS score or do all the assets.

Yes, online play completely ruins the story. That's why I explicitly stated that I was not counting the points gained from non-Shepard story related materials.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

However Shepard can argue back saying the Krogan earned it and that they deserve a chance for redemption. By your argument then we shouldn't have cured the Genophage.

Not really. Shepard can have faith in people like Legion, Wrex, and EDI without having faith that future generations will necessarily follow their example, or if they do that there won't be other unknown species that will not. The Catalyst states quite explicitly that this conflict has repeated itself ad nauseum for a billion years. Considering it is an amoral entity that has no need (or potentially ability) to lie, there is no reason to doubt it's conclusion. Shepard may be the first person to change the galaxy enough to the point where the Crucible is actually relevant, but that doesn't mean future generations would have the same mettle or abilities.

To put things in perspective, the Protheans were close to completing the Crucible during their cycle. Can you imagine what would happen if a Prothean like Javik were given the choice 50,000 years ago? He would have easily, and quickly, chosen Destroy, and 50,000 years later the Geth would appear, only this time without outside interference (Shepard), they would be forced to destroy the Quarians (since the Quarians only stop their genocidal campaign due to the Reaper threat and Shepard's involvement), and from there war would probably develop between the Council Races and the Geth (but even if it doesn't, the Quarians would still be dead).

The Reapers were built for a purpose. You may find their purpose monstrous (it is), but based on the Catalysts words it is relevant for the prevention of organic extinction (up to this point). Shepard may have created true peace with the Krogan, Rachni, and Geth, but there are still the Vorcha, Batarians (in smaller numbers), and whatever the hell Mr. Shadowbroker was, not to mention eventually emerging species or simply fools playing with things they do not understand 5000 years down the line. No matter what, some one at some point would attempt to create a servitor race only for the slaves to rebel.

Shepard may not be able to eliminate war between individuals (nor would he/she want to), but he/she can sure as hell prevent future generations from reliving the same cycles of synthetic vs. organic that the Reapers were created to prevent.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

Yes, online play completely ruins the story. That's why I explicitly stated that I was not counting the points gained from non-Shepard story related materials.

Yeah well it's there unfortunately.

Not really. Shepard can have faith in people like Legion, Wrex, and EDI without having faith that future generations will necessarily follow their example, or if they do that there won't be other unknown species that will not. The Catalyst states quite explicitly that this conflict has repeated itself ad nauseum for a billion years. Considering it is an amoral entity that has no need (or potentially ability) to lie, there is no reason to doubt it's conclusion. Shepard may be the first person to change the galaxy enough to the point where the Crucible is actually relevant, but that doesn't mean future generations would have the same mettle or abilities.

Again why do the Krogan get the benefit of the doubt and not the Geth? We can say Shepard doomed the entire galaxy to being overrun with Krogan even if the Reapers were destroyed.

To put things in perspective, the Protheans were close to completing the Crucible during their cycle. Can you imagine what would happen if a Prothean like Javik were given the choice 50,000 years ago? He would have easily, and quickly, chosen Destroy, and 50,000 years later the Geth would appear, only this time without outside interference (Shepard), they would be forced to destroy the Quarians (since the Quarians only stop their genocidal campaign due to the Reaper threat and Shepard's involvement), and from there war would probably develop between the Council Races and the Geth (but even if it doesn't, the Quarians would still be dead).

Flaw in your analogy.

The Geth rebelled without Reaper Intereference and once they chased the Quarians away they sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy.

And the Quarians were well on their way destroying the Geth in ME3 had it not been for the Reaper's intereference.

And given the Protheans' philosophy I find it hard for them to have allowed anyone to produce synthetics and without reaper influence they were well on their way to defeating synthetics.

It's also demonstrated that the Reapers have had a hand in encouraging synthetics to rebel according to Javik.

The Reapers were built for a purpose. You may find their purpose monstrous (it is), but based on the Catalysts words it is relevant for the prevention of organic extinction (up to this point). Shepard may have created true peace with the Krogan, Rachni, and Geth, but there are still the Vorcha, Batarians (in smaller numbers), and whatever the hell Mr. Shadowbroker was, not to mention eventually emerging species or simply fools playing with things they do not understand 5000 years down the line. No matter what, some one at some point would attempt to create a servitor race only for the slaves to rebel.

Shepard may not be able to eliminate war between individuals (nor would he/she want to), but he/she can sure as hell prevent future generations from reliving the same cycles of synthetic vs. organic that the Reapers were created to prevent.

But that's the flaw with the Reapers.

So it's okay for Organics to fight Organics but it's not okay for Synthetics? Why are we putting the Geth in a completely different camp from the likes of the Krogan and the Rachni?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Yeah well it's there unfortunately.

Not for anyone that has never played and will never play the online content added after the fact.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Again why do the Krogan get the benefit of the doubt and not the Geth? We can say Shepard doomed the entire galaxy to being overrun with Krogan even if the Reapers were destroyed.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Yes, the Krogan could destroy the galaxy I guess. If your argument is about Shepard's faith, then I fully agree. Shepard had faith in the Krogan just the same as the Geth. Synthesis has nothing to say against that faith.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The Geth rebelled without Reaper Intereference and once they chased the Quarians away they sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy.

I never disputed that. The geth did not seek war with the Quarians. They would have been content to be left alone for eternity.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

And the Quarians were well on their way destroying the Geth in ME3 had it not been for the Reaper's intereference.

Were they? I know they pushed the war to their home planet, but I do not recall the Quarians winning (they were only attacking, and the Geth fearing for their lives allied with the Reapers) until the moment at the very end when the Reaper is defeated and the Geth ships go silent. That's the moment you get to choose whether the Geth or the Quarians live or die.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

And given the Protheans' philosophy I find it hard for them to have allowed anyone to produce synthetics and without reaper influence they were well on their way to defeating synthetics.

By the time the Protheans were at the point they could create the Crucible, they were already losing the war (as all races do), plus they didn't even have mass relays to use, and if they used the Crucible they would never be able to use the relays again.

So, I guess it is impossible to know what would happen. Sorry.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

It's also demonstrated that the Reapers have had a hand in encouraging synthetics to rebel according to Javik.

Yes they did. They also had a hand in encouraging organic rebellions over the years.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

So it's okay for Organics to fight Organics but it's not okay for Synthetics? Why are we putting the Geth in a completely different camp from the likes of the Krogan and the Rachni?

Who put the Geth in a separate "camp"? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

After Synthesis, the Geth or the Krogans or Humans or whomever would want to can fight a war with whichever group they wanted to. Synthesis doesn't create peace, or even understanding. Nothing has fundamentally changed about these individuals (at least, it is never stated the rewriting of their basic genetic code has in anyway changed the fundamental nature of the individual species). All Synthesis does is erase the distinction between synthetic and organic, and more importantly, creator and created. Wars will still be fought, hate will still exist, and undoubtedly species will be still go extinct for a variety of reasons. Synthesis simply eliminates one of the core barriers within the universe.

(Admittedly, this is all just looking at synthesis on a strict surface layer. It's real importance lies solely in the hands of Shepard and his/her ability to choice the potential ending of the cycle. Realistically, what happens after Shepard's choice doesn't really matter to the core story or how we as players created our Shepards.)

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Yes, the Krogan could destroy the galaxy I guess. If your argument is about Shepard's faith, then I fully agree. Shepard had faith in the Krogan just the same as the Geth. Synthesis has nothing to say against that faith.

Which again what was the whole point then? If you're going to argue that Shepard cannot place faith in the Geth why can he place faith in the Rachini and Krogan who have the capability of destroying the Galaxy?

Were they? I know they pushed the war to their home planet, but I do not recall the Quarians winning (they were only attacking, and the Geth fearing for their lives allied with the Reapers) until the moment at the very end when the Reaper is defeated and the Geth ships go silent. That's the moment you get to choose whether the Geth or the Quarians live or die.

They were. As Admiral Korris and Legion told Shepard that in their last death throes (when the Quarians had pushed them back to their homeworld), the Reapers stepped in and boosted the Geth. The Geth allied with the Reapers because they didn't want to "die"

By the time the Protheans were at the point they could create the Crucible, they were already losing the war (as all races do), plus they didn't even have mass relays to use, and if they used the Crucible they would never be able to use the relays again.

So, I guess it is impossible to know what would happen. Sorry.

I'm guessing you didn't had the From the Ashes DLC (which again contradict's Casey's defense that it would have no impact on the story whatsoever)

Javik pointed out that the Protheans encountered a synthentic race that assimilated their masters and were well on their way to dominating the Galaxy. The Protheans countered by uniting all under their flag and fighting back. Javik explains that they were close to victory but then the Reapers showed up and all was lost by that point so yes it's possible.

Who put the Geth in a separate "camp"? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

After Synthesis, the Geth or the Krogans or Humans or whomever would want to can fight a war with whichever group they wanted to. Synthesis doesn't create peace, or even understanding. Nothing has fundamentally changed about these individuals (at least, it is never stated the rewriting of their basic genetic code has in anyway changed the fundamental nature of the individual species). All Synthesis does is erase the distinction between synthetic and organic, and more importantly, creator and created. Wars will still be fought, hate will still exist, and undoubtedly species will be still go extinct for a variety of reasons. Synthesis simply eliminates one of the core barriers within the universe.

(Admittedly, this is all just looking at synthesis on a strict surface layer. It's real importance lies solely in the hands of Shepard and his/her ability to choice the potential ending of the cycle. Realistically, what happens after Shepard's choice doesn't really matter to the core story or how we as players created our Shepards.)

Again why do the Krogan and Rachini get special treatement and faith in that they'll hold their word and not the Geth?

If Shepard has faith in the Krogan and Rachini then the Geth should be no different.

The problem is that the Reapers continually state that it will never work despite the evidence and then presents synthesis which makes all of Shepard's efforts worthless to begin with regardless of how you choose sides between the Geth and Quarians. In fact it also cures the Genophage so there wasn't any need to have Mordin sacrifice himself!

The whole point of the journey is that after all that hard work you shouldn't be giving a button that uses space magic to fix everything right off the bat and make everything you did pointless.