2008-06-22, 03:44 | Link #1261 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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The other half of this is that causal loops are decidedly not the simplest explanations for things, and yet we have at least three of those, if one counts carefully.. My point is that in the haruhiverse, an explanation involving alternate timelines and causal loops isn't actually as big a leap as, for example, using a similar theory to explain why my clock runs fast in our world, because we know that such things actually exist. Occam's razor favors the simplest explanation which fits the evidence. Your theory seems to suggest the existence of a time travel group actively seeking to destroy/replace their own timeline, and everyone within it. Yes, crazy people/groups exist, but it makes it that much more unlikely. It's not just a matter of saying "Occam's Razor" and making it go away; I just don't think it's that clear. (I think we can all agree, however, that the current known goals of various groups range from morally ambiguous to good. While Kuyoh and Fujiwara seem to ooze evil, at least in Kyon's eyes, we don't know what they want, so they may not necessarily be evil (Kyon is biased); it's just that the goals of the sos-dan members, assuming we know the truth about them, are known to be innocuous, so we question them less). |
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2008-06-22, 07:56 | Link #1263 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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Why would you create a time travel agency to ensure the future happens, when you understand perfectly well that history can't be changed? Bossman:so...you want me to give you a hundred billion megacreds a year, to create a time traveling organization to ensure that things that have already happened, will always happen, and cannot be kept from happening, happen? Mook:Yep Bossman: NO Mook: Aw... ...Of course, A time travel is fundamentally a weird concept. You basically have events happening...because they happen. It seems to take the concept of cause and effect, and beat it bluntly on the head to death. You have a never ending loop of events, that seem to have started for no logical reason. It might seem somewhat consistent when you're speaking about actions, but there are certain similiar time travel stories working on the same principal of "It happened because it happened". The story "All you zombies" by Robert Heinlen, features a character that has sex with himself, impregnates himself, and then gives birth to himself (Intersexual with working male/female parts). The basics for the causation at first hand seems to be explainable by the standard time travel "It happened because it happened", but a more fundemental problem comes into being when you think of the lineage more carefully. What is it's lineage? This individual has no blood relation with the rest of the human race. It has no plausible relation to any human ancestor, all the way down to the vertebrates that first crawled out of the sea. Logically speaking, this thing shouldn't even exist. It's almost as if the universe itself hiccuped, and out spawned this individual stuck in a time loop. While seemingly unrelated to destiny time travel stories, it is still fundamentally related. where as in All you zombies, the major visible paradox is within the biology, it can still be applied to actions and causation. The actions or events of absolute time travel seem to have be stuck in a loop that has no apparent start (Which doesn't have allot of meaning, seeing how you've bypassed the 4th dimension). |
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2008-06-22, 12:17 | Link #1265 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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As long as the past wasn't changed, we don't have a universe-shattering paradox. ...I really don't see what your problem is... Quote:
My point in bringing up the possibility that one could be destroyed was to point out that, were that to occur, the time travelers would never have existed and thus could never have traveled back in time. So Fujiwara probably isn't from an alternate timeline. We have no evidence to suggest this. Which is why I invoked the Razor. Quote:
As for how the Time Agency was created, I imagine someone came from the far future to the future and said "Hey guys, you need to create a time travel agency so our future can exist." Quote:
Why this happens I don't know, but the only logical explanation is that anything involved in an ontological paradox is made from the timestream itself. |
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2008-06-22, 13:01 | Link #1266 |
Kneel Before Your King!
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While yes, their actions in the past were a direct cause of their traveling back to actually do it... their actions in the past are what cause them to even exist in the first place. In other words, they came into being out of nowhere. There is absolutely no logical reason for any of them to exist.
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2008-06-22, 13:01 | Link #1267 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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2008-06-22, 13:07 | Link #1268 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Kyon traveled back in time to ensure his own existence and finish the loop, and I still don't see what you find wrong with that other than the normal paradox in such situations. Quote:
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2008-06-22, 13:34 | Link #1273 |
Kneel Before Your King!
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Except that there was no point in the future for them to travel back from if... forget it. This just isn't worth it. I've already done what you asked and provided a paradox that is neither a predestination paradox nor a time loop(as I've stated, it's an ontological paradox), despite its existence being intertwined with one of each.
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2008-06-22, 19:18 | Link #1275 | |||||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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...this is actually a pretty good arguement for Koizumi's theory that Time Travelers and the IDE only came into existence because of Haruhi. Quote:
Given this particular universe, that actually explains allot. Quote:
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The events that set the ball rolling for the time travel come out of nowhere, but are very deliberately crafted. Lets look at this scenario to elaborate how truly confusing getting a paradox started is... 2 mortal enemies are fighting each other on a deserted island over a time machine. They are evenly matched. One of them suddenly realizes that he can win, if his future selves use their newly acquired time machine periodically go back in time (once every year for the next 6-8 years) to reinforce their past self in his hour of need, and secure the time machine for themselves. Of course this requires him to actually survive the encounter...witch is also guaranteed by his future reinforcements. However, the same arguement could be used that the other guy could use his temporal clones to ensure his victory. In short, this scenario cannot proceed logically this way. The continuity gets screwy as to who would actually win this in this kind of scenario. The only way you can get even a somewhat rational explanation, would be for some higher power not bound by the 4th dimension (or logic for that matter...) to covertly interfere with events. |
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2008-06-22, 21:07 | Link #1276 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Do you see what I'm getting at here? The future had already happened. Also, everyone, please stop discussing time travel. It makes my head hurt and throwing around theories is going nowhere. |
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2008-06-22, 21:10 | Link #1277 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
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Pretty much every story that I have seen or read involving Time Travel involves some kind of paradox. Even "The Terminator." Sarah Conner's son is the leader of the human resistance in the future. He sends a friend back to protect his mother from the Terminator knowing that that friend will become his father. Or another story where a Time Traveler came back and was trying to kill everyone who had made Time Travel possible. He had hired guards for a Farmer, which tipped the opposition off to the fact that this farmer was his ancestor. One of them assassinated the farmer, and was killed by the guards, but the Time Traveler vanished at the instant the farmer died, leaving one researcher into Time Travel alive.
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2008-06-23, 04:32 | Link #1279 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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We were arguing how closely Haruhi follows this a page ago, I think. One way to think about it is to have a game where there's two boxes, one with a million dollars, and you can choose either box. The catch is that beforehand, the host looks through a time machine and sees which box you pick. He then announces to you which box you will pick, and makes clear the money is in the other box. Try to untangle this in your head. Novikov's principle, of course, would deny that such a game could even happen. Rather, any attempts to set up such a game will be burned down by fires etc. |
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2008-06-23, 07:36 | Link #1280 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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How exactly does the Novikov theory "prevent" an event from occurring in the past? That's another thing I've always found weird about time travel dealing with paradoxes, is how exactly the universe prevents a paradox from taking place?
There are things that a time traveler could do to prevent the titanic form sinking, or at least change the history of that episode. He could transport of a hundred of his friends all dressed out in futuristic gear on board the titanic, walk up to the captain while exposing himself to the entire crew, and have all his friends sing a musical number about the fate of the Titanic, and when it will happen. When someone tries to do this, does the universe manifest in the form of Yotsuba, and kick them all in the nades before they can depart to the past? |
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shounen, sneaker bunko, seinen, light novels, manga |
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