Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Random Wanderer]

We don't really need to get into spoilers about the nature of Saber vs the nature of other Servants, but what made her special shouldn't have affected the physical body and the equipment that were manifested for her. Those would be only as real as the throne of heroes could make them, which is to say very very very very good copies.

[Unknown Soldier]

Saber is unusual compared to the other Heroic Spirits but that makes the fact that the one in the card can't be the real one even more glaring regarding her specifically.

[Lender]

Rather than compare which excalibur is stronger (Alter Saber or Illyas fake/copy) i would like to know how Illya was able to use excalibur "fatality/super power/noble phantasm". In Fate/Zero she says that the power to cast the Excaliburs "fatality" resides on her left arm as she could not use it until Lancer break the curse on Sabers left arm.

So...how was Illya able to cast it ? Archer can copy any weapon but not noble phantasms of other heroes.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Lender

Rather than compare which excalibur is stronger (Alter Saber or Illyas fake/copy) i would like to know how Illya was able to use excalibur "fatality/super power/noble phantasm". In Fate/Zero she says that the power to cast the Excaliburs "fatality" resides on her left arm as she could not use it until Lancer break the curse on Sabers left arm.

That is a completely different case. In Zero, Saber's left arm was wounded and naturally could not use both her arms to channel the prana for Excaliblasting.

Originally Posted by Lender

So...how was Illya able to cast it ? Archer can copy any weapon but not noble phantasms of other heroes.

It was never stated that Ilya recreated the genuine article. Archer can create unauthentic imitation, and that's exactly what Ilya did.

[Lender]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That is a completely different case. In Zero, Saber's left arm was wounded and naturally could not use both her arms to channel the prana for Excaliblasting.



It was never stated that Ilya recreated the genuine article. Archer can create unauthentic imitation, and that's exactly what Ilya did.

Unauthentic imitation of weapons, not noble phantasms. Archer never copied magic in any Fate anime (don't know about the games/VN). He would be overpower if he could copy the noble phantasm of other heroes (He could copy Gilgamesh noble phantasm and easily destroy the other heroes with it).

[GDB]

Gilgamesh's noble phantasm isn't a sword. Excalibur is. That's the difference between the two. And he's copied Rule Breaker and used its noble phantasm effect before, so there's no reason why he couldn't copy the noble phantasm effect of any other sword that he could otherwise copy. He even alludes to doing such in UBW when fighting Saber, saying he'd just blow them all up if need be.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Lender

Unauthentic imitation of weapons, not noble phantasms. Archer never copied magic in any Fate anime (don't know about the games/VN). He would be overpower if he could copy the noble phantasm of other heroes (He could copy Gilgamesh noble phantasm and easily destroy the other heroes with it).

DEEN's Fate anime aren't exactly good adaptations of the source material.

Archer can copy Noble Phantasms. He just can't make a perfect copy of divine constructs like Excalibur and Ea.

[GDB]

Originally, he wasn't even able to make bad copies of them, because they contained materials not of this world. But as time went on, Nasu decided to retcon that and allow him to make even further degraded versions of at least Excalibur. He probably still cannot trace any form of Ea, and the reasoning for Excalibur is likely just his innate connection to Saber making up for the material weakness.

[Shadow5YA]

No one ever said Archer's Excalibur Image was made of the same materials as the real deal (in fact, his version is spelled with different kanji). It's very possible that he just replaced the materials he couldn't replicate with something else in his reality marble.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No one ever said Archer's Excalibur Image was made of the same materials as the real deal (in fact, his version is spelled with different kanji). It's very possible that he just replaced the materials he couldn't replicate with something else in his reality marble.

I'd say that it's certain that he did. But those divine elements are part of Excalibur for a reason, and I doubt any materials Archer can think of from Earth will truly be able to take their place. So it's another reason why a traced Excalibur would, ordinarily, not be as good as a real one, aside from the fact that tracing by definition forms an imperfect copy.

All of that doesn't override the original point of this discussion, though. There are still valid reasons why Illya won, despite the fact that her sword should have been and probably was inferior.

[Dengar]

I thought the reason Ea couldn't be traced was because Shirou was unable to analyze Ea properly in the first place due to how alien the thing is, and the reason Excalibur couldn't be traced was due to the incredibly steep mana requirment.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I thought the reason Ea couldn't be traced was because Shirou was unable to analyze Ea properly in the first place due to how alien the thing is, and the reason Excalibur couldn't be traced was due to the incredibly steep mana requirment.

Wasn't the correct way to trace a sword pulling the image from their reality marble/sword origin instead of trying to copy on sight? That's why Shirou messed up so often.

[Dengar]

Unlimited Blade Works contains all the pre-traced swords that Archer was able to analyze AND reproduce. Neither Ea nor Excalibur actually fit in there.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Wasn't the correct way to trace a sword pulling the image from their reality marble/sword origin instead of trying to copy on sight? That's why Shirou messed up so often.

UBW is the place where the sword is getting constructed in the projecting process.

Spoiler for Unlimited Blade Work Spoilers:

Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Gradation_Air#Projection_.28Trace_Version.29

Shirou and Archer mentally divide the process of Tracing into seven steps, which include:

1. Judging the concept of creation
2. Hypothesizing the basic structure
3. Duplicating the composition material
4. Imitating the skill of its making
5. Sympathizing with the experience of its growth
6. Reproducing the accumulated years
7. Excelling every manufacturing process

Due to the extra effort, it is possible to produce incredibly stable ordinary items that can remain in the world for hours after their creation. Furthermore, whenever replicating mystical objects such as Noble Phantasms, it is possible to faithfully copy their special abilities and any skill that its owner performed are available for use. The reason this is possible is due to the nature of Unlimited Blade Works, which at a glance, records the history, composition, and design of what the user sees, and then provides the necessary materials needed to reproduce them. The actual reproduction happens within Unlimited Blade Works, and is then brought into the real world at need via Projection. If the image of the projection is interrupted in any way, the item will be physically weak and shatter upon physical impact. It is also possible to apply Reinforcement to objects recorded within Unlimited Blade Works, as demonstrated with Caladbolg II or Kanshou and Bakuya.

[Dengar]

Just to clarify, could you use that explanation to illustrate why Ea cannot be traced? I could try myself, but I might fall short.

Basically, for Ea, the process would run into an error as early as step 1. Even if it didn't, any of the other steps are also impossible for several reasons (which are hard for me to explain).

I think it's different for Excalibur though, where it's merely a manner of the mana cost to produce that thing being bigger than even Archer could produce.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Just to clarify, could you use that explanation to illustrate why Ea cannot be traced? I could try myself, but I might fall short.

Basically, for Ea, the process would run into an error as early as step 1. Even if it didn't, any of the other steps are also impossible for several reasons (which are hard for me to explain).

I think it's different for Excalibur though, where it's merely a manner of the mana cost to produce that thing being bigger than even Archer could produce.

Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works

Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ, p.130-136
Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

This means mana cost wouldn't be the issue with being able to replicate Excalibur. If Archer did try to replicate Excalibur he would just get something which looked like it, but was less powerful and wasn't Excalibur.

I think the reason why Ea isn't replicateable is because it is just too alien to Archer and Shirou.

Originally Posted by "http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ea"

It is something that was born before the appearance of the concept that the world calls a "sword", so it is not something that can truly be called a sword or have the shape of any known blade.

Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ea

↑ 2.0 2.1 Fate/Zero Animation Visual Guide II - Though it is wielded by Gilgamesh, who has the prototypes of every Noble Phantasm, the Sword of Rupture Ea is different from the other Noble Phantasms that can be possessed by other heroes. It alone is a completely unique existence that can only be possessed by Gilgamesh. Therefore, even with Unlimited Blade Works, it is impossible to reproduce it. (あらゆる宝具の原点をもつギルガメッシュだが、他の英雄がもち得る他の宝具とは違い、乖離剣エアだけは彼 の みがもち得る唯一無二の存在。そのため、「無限の剣製（アンリミテッドブレイドワークス）」でも複製するこ とはできない。)

I still think all these expectation make it needlessly complicated. It would have been much more streamlined if there weren't as many (strange) exceptions. Nasu should have just sicked to "divine constructs are non-replicable".

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Just to clarify, could you use that explanation to illustrate why Ea cannot be traced? I could try myself, but I might fall short.

Basically, for Ea, the process would run into an error as early as step 1. Even if it didn't, any of the other steps are also impossible for several reasons (which are hard for me to explain).

I think it's different for Excalibur though, where it's merely a manner of the mana cost to produce that thing being bigger than even Archer could produce.

I don't think Archer/Shirou can fulfill steps 3 or 4 for Excalibur either, because "divine constructs are non-replicable."

Trying to make Ea is just even worse because of reasons you already stated.

[Reckoner]

Painful. There are so many things wrong about the portrayal of this fight, it's not funny. This is just so inaccurate. Archer says in UBW that he wouldn't be able to trace excalibur 100%, so there's no way to straight up win a fight like that.

I dunno how other fate fans are enjoying this show at all. It's cringe worthy to me. I love Rin in fate/stay night, but she's portrayed really annoyingly here.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Painful. There are so many things wrong about the portrayal of this fight, it's not funny. This is just so inaccurate. Archer says in UBW that he wouldn't be able to trace excalibur 100%, so there's no way to straight up win a fight like that.

I dunno how other fate fans are enjoying this show at all. It's cringe worthy to me. I love Rin in fate/stay night, but she's portrayed really annoyingly here.

For one thing, this is an alternate universe, for another thing, this *IS* how things happened in the manga, and lastly, don't forget in FSN Ilya was able to do some crazy, CRAZY stuff with her abilities, it didn't get shown that often, but she could basically make anything happen.

Plus, didn't Nasu confirm that EMIYA has several swords that are similar to Excalibur? Including his own version of it?

I know he does in Fate/Extra

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

For one thing, this is an alternate universe, for another thing, this *IS* how things happened in the manga, and lastly, don't forget in FSN Ilya was able to do some crazy, CRAZY stuff with her abilities, it didn't get shown that often, but she could basically make anything happen.

Plus, didn't Nasu confirm that EMIYA has several swords that are similar to Excalibur? Including his own version of it?

I know he does in Fate/Extra

More of:
Prismaverse is Mahou Shoujoverse, so the powerlevel discussion basically boils down to "Whoever has the strongest love and friendship wins." Except for Bazett. She wrecks everyone.Then Gilgamesh wrecks her, cause his love is titanic and worldwide, like Ea.

Chaos: It's too alien, it's not a sword even though it's called one and probably because it's so old (in the beginning of time...)