Shin High School Volume 1 Discussion

[Hakai]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

And Issei couldn't handle the full power of DxD G and the second time he used it he would have died had Ophis not taking most of the drawback from Issei using DxD G. So now Issei puts a limit on the form itself as Issei has slightly changed the chant to go into Pseudo DxD, which is a nerfed DxD G. But then again 'nerfed' doesm' t mean it has a power decrease as Issei's Infinity Blaster seems as powerful as it did before in DxD G.

When the headcanon is too strong that you start ignoring direct clear-cut statements and start abandoning common sense.

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by XFire

Yeah, no. It's something Issei recieved as a result of his actions. And you keep shifting the goalposts around to try and salvage your point, just to make things worse on yourself.

First, it being a fusion means it literally isnt that persons power and is something they themselves can't achieve. Second, Sairong and Vidar didnt train for theirs, and we're shown none of Rias' so by your logic its irrelevant.

Your point was made, dissected, and discarded as fatally flawed. Glad you've moved on though.

Oh no, the divine drink helped him overcome the divine seal keeping Ddraig locked in the SG. The seal that's been gradually unlocking this whole time as Issei develops. People were speculating about Ddraig coming out as far back as the Trihexia fight.

Issei saving Ophis resulted in him getting a new body but not a direct result of getting DxD. From volume 12 to volume 20, he did nothing to try to unlock his potential. Ophis just happened to unlock it for him which is why it's a handout.

This doesn't even begin to make sense. So you're saying that Rias fusing with Gasper is something they could do from the getgo without any work to actually make the technique? Because Volume 24 proves you wrong, since it straight up states they developed the technique. They had to put work, thought and intent to develop it, they didn't get it as a handout just because, like how Issei got Triaina, DxD G, PDxD, PDxD time extension and the Ddraig summon.

There nothing stated about Ddraig's seal beginning to be unlocked. Also This might have been right if Issei's survival was dependent on something he had to do, but it wasn't. I am not ignoring Amrita's risk, but Issei didn't actually do anything to survive the Amrita. He just survived it out of dumb luck or because it couldn't kill him in the first place, both of which are not even resembling actual merit.

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by Hakai

When the headcanon is too strong that you start ignoring direct clear-cut statements and start abandoning common sense.

Just saying that it could have been nerfed in other ways like the time limit.

Honestly I'm just looking at the times when he used DxD G and Pseudo DxD and simply see no difference in their power levels.

And I just think Ishibumi made statements about DxD G being nerfed before he actually thought about how it would be nerfed in the first place.

Wouldn't be the first time something was stated in the light novel that Ishibumi decided to change afterwards.

[TommyG]

I can kind of see where Lucidrago is coming from since in terms of feats True DxD took out a heavenly dragon while Pseudo DxD took down Vidar who, with boots and Armour was top 10 iirc (though that may not be the best example since the Vidar fight was after he had gotten the amirita from Indra) but at the same time it has been said in the volumes that the power has been reduced so it just seems like a reasonable conclusion that pseudo is weaker than true.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

Issei saving Ophis resulted in him getting a new body but not a direct result of getting DxD. From volume 12 to volume 20, he did nothing to try to unlock his potential. Ophis just happened to unlock it for him which is why it's a handout.

DxD is literally the power of his new body being unlocked by Ophis. Who explicitly says Issei's finally reached a point he can use it in the Rizeviem fight. It's a power he received because of his actions, as opposed to something he got for being born special like Vali or Cao Cao.

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

This doesn't even begin to make sense. So you're saying that Rias fusing with Gasper is something they could do from the getgo without any work to actually make the technique? Because Volume 24 proves you wrong, since it straight up states they developed the technique. They had to put work, thought and intent to develop it, they didn't get it as a handout just because, like how Issei got Triaina, DxD G, PDxD, PDxD time extension and the Ddraig summon.

Except we didn't see it so according to you it doesnt matter, since it didnt have any permanent negative consequences.

And if you think that's silly, that's the point, I'm mocking the ridiculousness of your argument about the Amirita.

Triana was the result of Issei conversing with the previous hosts, unlocking his potential. DxD is as stated the direct result of his death and rebirth through Ophis and GR. PDxD is literally a reduced DxD, it's a nerf not a power-up. The Amirita nearly killed him and by enduring it he earned the boost.

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

There nothing stated about Ddraig's seal beginning to be unlocked. Also This might have been right if Issei's survival was dependent on something he had to do, but it wasn't. I am not ignoring Amrita's risk, but Issei didn't actually do anything to survive the Amrita. He just survived it out of dumb luck or because it couldn't kill him in the first place, both of which are not even resembling actual merit.

Lol what. God's seal on Ddraig has been mentioned to be unlocking several times as they developed, which is why things like Penetrate and the super flames became available.

Issei survived Amirita by sheer force of will. He endured it and thus recieved the benefits. This line of reasoning is so nonsensical it basically invalidates all training and hard work in the entire series if taken at face value.

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by XFire

DxD is literally the power of his new body being unlocked by Ophis. Who explicitly says Issei's finally reached a point he can use it in the Rizeviem fight. It's a power he received because of his actions, as opposed to something he got for being born special like Vali or Cao Cao.



Except we didn't see it so according to you it doesnt matter, since it didnt have any permanent negative consequences.

And if you think that's silly, that's the point, I'm mocking the ridiculousness of your argument about the Amirita.

Triana was the result of Issei conversing with the previous hosts, unlocking his potential. DxD is as stated the direct result of his death and rebirth through Ophis and GR. PDxD is literally a reduced DxD, it's a nerf not a power-up. The Amirita nearly killed him and by enduring it he earned the boost.



Lol what. God's seal on Ddraig has been mentioned to be unlocking several times as they developed, which is why things like Penetrate and the super flames became available.

Issei survived Amirita by sheer force of will. He endured it and thus recieved the benefits. This line of reasoning is so nonsensical it basically invalidates all training and hard work in the entire series if taken at face value.

She never said such a thing. About the closest she said to something like that is that Issei is now "satisfied". Not even that he satisfied a condition, which would have been fine, but that he himself is "satisfied". And it's not even explained.

Regarding Rias Balor form. I don't have a problem at all with people developing techniques offscreen, so long as it's made clear that they actually had to work toward them. And I also never asked for permanent negative consequences provided they actually work for their abilities. It's only when they get handouts that I think they should at least have a permanent or repeated negative consequence for its usage.

You're wrong about Triana. Issei conversing with the past host resulted in him getting CxC. Prior to having CxC the past host didn't even respond to him when he had Triana.

Regarding Amrita, such a thing was never stated, lmao. It was never implied, hinted or stated that Issei survived Amrita due to his force of will. Risk alone does not warrant a reward, it's action that warrants a reward. And Issei literally did not perform any actions to survive Amrita. He didn't even know it could damage him, let alone have a risk of death. If Issei explicitly knew Amrita had a high risk of killing him and yet he decided to brave it out and still drink it to get his additional power, then that would have been ok even if not perfect. However, that's not what happened.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

She never said such a thing. About the closest she said to something like that is that Issei is now "satisfied". Not even that he satisfied a condition, which would have been fine, but that he himself is "satisfied". And it's not even explained.

She said the conditions are satisfied. Do you understand the context of that or do I need to write it out for you with diagrams as well?

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

Regarding Rias Balor form. I don't have a problem at all with people developing techniques offscreen, so long as it's made clear that they actually had to work toward them. And I also never asked for permanent negative consequences provided they actually work for their abilities. It's only when they get handouts that I think they should at least have a permanent or repeated negative consequence for its usage.

-> survives a deadly holy poison ripping his body apart

-> didnt work for it

Yeah, this handout thing of yours is BS and you know it.

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

You're wrong about Triana. Issei conversing with the past host resulted in him getting CxC. Prior to having CxC the past host didn't even respond to him when he had Triana.

Wut.

Triana is a result of the box opening while talking to the two previous hosts at the beginning of Kyoto. Did you actually read this?

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

Regarding Amrita, such a thing was never stated, lmao. It was never implied, hinted or stated that Issei survived Amrita due to his force of will. Risk alone does not warrant a reward, it's action that warrants a reward. And Issei literally did not perform any actions to survive Amrita. He didn't even know it could damage him, let alone have a risk of death. If Issei explicitly knew Amrita had a high risk of killing him and yet he decided to brave it out and still drink it to get his additional power, then that would have been ok even if not perfect. However, that's not what happened.

Kek.

Yeah, the poison that drove Issei unconscious, who endured the poison of the Dragon Killer while maintaining consciousness, was not at all dangerous to him in any way.

Indra tells him to surpass it and Cao Cao even says he's surprised at how quick Issei woke up. Issei had to fight past it to get back up.


Seriously, this hangup of yours isn't even petty anymore, it's nonsensical. You're arguing that something that nearly killed Issei is less legitamite then off-screen training, that a fusion technique is a better sign of growth than unlocking your own potential, and that the things Issei gets as direct consequences of his actions going back a dozen volumes are "handouts" while other people who were literally just born special somehow earned theirs.

And that's ignoring the numerous factual errors you've built this theory around, like Ddraig's seal, Issei's power, Triana and so on.

Stop digging yourself deeper.

[vietthai96]

Nah Issei drink a mixed Amrita, not "pure" Amrita or he will die

[shadowarc]

Hasn't it been stated from the beginning that Sacred Gears use their owners thoughts, needs, and feelings to gain new abilities? I think that was said to be the source of Balance Breakers. His feelings towards his parents was shown from the beginning in his first fight with Vali (although his oppai power caused a bigger power boost) so it's a no brainer that something would happen again when they're involved. Whether it's Vali or Issei, when Ophis unlocked their DxD forms it also had to do with their mental state (Issei and his parents; Vali and his mother/step-siblings).

I agree the part with Pseudo Amrita felt a bit short but Indra stated that he was just providing a way for Issei to breakthrough that "wall" he's was facing i.e drinking his equivalent to lethal poison that even reached Ddraig. I'd rather not have to read a detailed 2-3 pages of "my body is being torn to shreds" even Dragon Ball didn't do that for Kid Goku.

I don't see how else you can expect a guy whose base specs are ordinary trash to compare to and level up the same as those geniuses who have been training and fighting longer than he has. It's only been 1-2 years since he was a normal high school student.