This Ugly and Beautiful World [Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai]

[Shift_]

KareKano was good, followed the manga REALLY REALLY closely, but they probally ran out of money to do the rest. Kare Kano is still being published isn't it?

[CorneredAngel]

OK, so, episode 3 - thoughts and impressions.

1. Rain motif - probably a *direct* cue/reference to the way rain and the "concept" of rain is used in Eva, in particular in episode 26. And if that wasn't enough, the song Hikari hums in episode 2 (and sort of does here) is, if you listen closely, Kanon d Dur - the same piece that the Children practice in Evangelion. (...of course, Eva music is also used in one of the Abenobashi episodes...just for the fuck of it, and for a knowing chuckle...)

2. Not sure how you can argue otherwise after this episode: Gainax *is* the only anime studio out there that consistently tries to do *more* with animation than anyone thinks is possible. Sure, Ghibli films look great, but in terms of either cinematography (as films) or animation, they aren't remarkable: the reason why everyone is wowed is because people frankly don't expect much from animation, and since Ghibli gets the stories right, that's better than nothing. But Gainax goes a *lot* further. The cinematography here is absolutely remarkable. The use of still shots and negative space is pretty much a Gainax hallmark, but that doesn't mean it's getting old. Also, notice in how many shots the "action" is kept far in the background while the camera focuses on some seemingly pointless object in the foreground. Which simultaneously makes us pay much more attention to what's going on in the back, out of focus, *and* wonder about the significance - if any - of those little things. Like, say, a snail...Another thing I noticed is the use of "set" backgrounds that the characters come back to several times, for example, the lakeside pier, the bench by the side of it...And of course the great thing is the contrast between the two relatively somber/quiet set pieces on either half of the episode - and the EXTREMELY kinetic (both in terms of the story and in terms of the actual cinematography/animation) interlude with Kwan - *especially* the thing with the cat!. Which it's all too easy to just throw off as comic relief...except what it really does is reiterate the contrast and the expectation of Very Bad Things...

3. We could sort of see this in the last episode, but I think Takeru is actually going to be the truly dangerous one here. Hikari has destructive potential, but he has both destructive potential, plus loneliness and dissatisfaction with everything, *plus* selfishness: notice how angry he got at even the thought of losing Hikari.

4. Also, looks like the real conflict that is going to develop *will* be between Takeru and Ryou, or rather, between their worldviews: Takeru has pretty much lost faith in the world, as shown by his opening couple of lines ("A war is going on somewhere far away...No on tries to stop it, as usual."); whereas Ryou hasn't. Yet. One of them will be proven right, the other wrong. Which one will be which? Well, that's gonna be the fun part.

So, yeah. Call it either over-analyzing, or just taking the time to stop and think about this, rather than just impulsively hitting the send button on a rant.

---

Also, I may be wrong on this, but I remember Yamaga going on the record in an interview and stating that *only* Evangelion actually made money. And even then, mostly in merchandising and DVD sales. Which, of course, brings to mind the math problem to end all math problems: "how many new Ayanami Red bandage/bondage figures need to be released before Gainax can splurge on another FLCL?" ^_^

[Melazoma]

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

3. We could sort of see this in the last episode, but I think Takeru is actually going to be the truly dangerous one here. Hikari has destructive potential, but he has both destructive potential, plus loneliness and dissatisfaction with everything, *plus* selfishness: notice how angry he got at even the thought of losing Hikari.

4. Also, looks like the real conflict that is going to develop *will* be between Takeru and Ryou, or rather, between their worldviews: Takeru has pretty much lost faith in the world, as shown by his opening couple of lines ("A war is going on somewhere far away...No on tries to stop it, as usual."); whereas Ryou hasn't. Yet. One of them will be proven right, the other wrong. Which one will be which? Well, that's gonna be the fun part.

In terms of selfishness, though, I found Ryou to be just as, if not more selfish than Takeru. The Ryou-Akari exchange at the roofed bench was what really, really got me. "There's still places to go, and people to see..." "Fun places? with nice people?"--Ryou's answer to that question was a sugar-coated "not really." Yet he insists on taking Akari out of her comfort zone just so that he can be closer to her, or, just so that Akari will become dependent on Ryou--all the while knowing that she can, nay, will be hurt. I do not know how this decision of Ryou's will play out, but I suppose it may be a factor in the "final evalution" in which the character who scores last gets the eternal torment of this show, GAINAX style

[JediNight]

Good points again Cornered. I had forgotten about the differing worldviews of Takeru and Ryou. And I think you hit the nail on the head -- many leechers take a very surface-level view of series and don't try to see what the studio is REALLY trying to say. Granted it depends on the studio, alot of studios never "say" anything =) But since its Gainax they should know better.

Paying attention to the little things and backdrops was a good point too. I think the scene with the cicada eating the bit of watermelon on Ryou's hand shows he is very empathetic to all life. Which as you said is the opposite of Takeru's view (again the stressing of duality). Kuon is also very funny ... they managed to get alot of expression despite it having no limbs. Funniest part was him cutting the watermelon offscreen ... I was like 0_o from the giant hacking sound ... where did he get the knife from LOL. (Btw its Kuon -- I assume Kwan was what Aone/Onigiri used?)

[Shift_]

Originally Posted by Melazoma

In terms of selfishness, though, I found Ryou to be just as, if not more selfish than Takeru. The Ryou-Akari exchange at the roofed bench was what really, really got me. "There's still places to go, and people to see..." "Fun places? with nice people?"--Ryou's answer to that question was a sugar-coated "not really." Yet he insists on taking Akari out of her comfort zone just so that he can be closer to her, or, just so that Akari will become dependent on Ryou--all the while knowing that she can, nay, will be hurt. I do not know how this decision of Ryou's will play out, but I suppose it may be a factor in the "final evalution" in which the character who scores last gets the eternal torment of this show, GAINAX style

As long as they don't run out of money and kill everyone at the end it's all good.

But Gainax.

[AkihaTohno]

Well, not kill EVERYONE, but some death is good. but the series seems to light hearted for it anyway.

But I'm like Kono. The characters, the animation, even the story. It's just something different for me. I've never seen Mahoromatic, and I don't think I want to, but I like this series so far.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Shigan

...Gainax is one of the better if not the *best* studios out there, the three shows by them I've watched have strenghtened that belief...

GAINAX is all too happy to tell people how "wild" and "far out" they are. When Anno was still writing and directing for them they certainly were capable of excellent anime. I can name 3 very good titles from GAINAX; so can anyone - but they haven't done anything for me lately.

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

...Gainax *is* the only anime studio out there that consistently tries to do *more* with animation than anyone thinks is possible...

They used to do things with anime as a storytelling medium... I wouldn't say that their best titles had incredible animation.

Originally Posted by abubo

...I think GAINAX can't be viewed as a normal animation firm...

Why not? At this point they are neither a tiny 'boutique" studio with a short track record nor a huge one with a bloated resume. Their body of work taken as a whole doesn't stand for anything special, despite their claims to the contrary.

Why not compare them to Madhouse, for example? Madhouse would have done a better job with the characterization in this series.

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

They used to do things with anime as a storytelling medium... I wouldn't say that their best titles had incredible animation.

Before I saw the Utena film, I had KareKano down as the best animation I'd ever seen. Animation isn't just about meticulously imitating reality, it doesn't even have to be consistently animated. It's about what it can convey. GAINAX may not have as much money to spend on their animation as some, but they are so clever at spending it, they utilise so many tricks and techniques that most animators don't seem aware of the existence of.

Why not? At this point they are neither a tiny 'boutique" studio with a short track record nor a huge one with a bloated resume. Their body of work taken as a whole doesn't stand for anything special, despite their claims to the contrary.

That's so far away from my perceptions of them it's unreal. Everything they've ever done (Ebichu and some strange series on animenfo that nobody seems to know anything about excepted) has had something really quite special in it for me, (not necessarily consistently, there are lots of episodes of Mahoromatic I'd quite happily throw away, but equally there are moments that are indelibly burned onto my memory), and everything is so different to what the rest of the market is offering, differing on many levels. GAINAX just have an approach to making anime which is utterly unlike any other studio.

[abubo]

Originally Posted by Lambda

Before I saw the Utena film, I had KareKano down as the best animation I'd ever seen. Animation isn't just about meticulously imitating reality, it doesn't even have to be consistently animated. It's about what it can convey. GAINAX may not have as much money to spend on their animation as some, but they are so clever at spending it, they utilise so many tricks and techniques that most animators don't seem aware of the existence of.



That's so far away from my perceptions of them it's unreal. Everything they've ever done (Ebichu and some strange series on animenfo that nobody seems to know anything about excepted) has had something really quite special in it for me, (not necessarily consistently, there are lots of episodes of Mahoromatic I'd quite happily throw away, but equally there are moments that are indelibly burned onto my memory), and everything is so different to what the rest of the market is offering, differing on many levels. GAINAX just have an approach to making anime which is utterly unlike any other studio.

Althought I didn't make the original comment about how "abnormal" they are, I must say I still hold GAINAX to a different standard. I don't know if other animation houses would take that much risk just to make a artistic point. Look at EVA; how did THAT project ever get funded? Who would have thought it would have been that successful?

In the beginning, animation Houses existed primarily to create animated version of manga titles (except Toei); it takes guts and risk-taking to create your own project without any sort of marketing test before. Animation Houses usually only have a minor (or no) financial stake in the anime they produce (manga publisher/TV stations and/or mangaka usually take the brunt of the cost). To develop and fund your own project is extremely risky and potentially bankrupting proposition, unless it's a safe,marketable bet like the Gundam francise.

Gainax took a HUGE risk of creating/funding basically Anno's art-house-style project aimed at subverting the cash cow giant robo anime, which nobody at the time, if the knew the ending, would think would sell. It's only their luck and the depth (or the wackiness) of Japanese fans that EVA took off like it did, or else EVA would have just been another money-loosing disaster for a small-ish anime house. I don't know any other anime house would do the same. GONZO and Madhouse has slick animation skills, but I won't say they are at the same level artisitcally as GAINAX. However, it doesn't mean they don't make crap (Gunbuster) or won't create an anime faithful to the mangaka's work like a good little animation contractor (Karekano).

I don't expect a FLCL everytime from GAINAX, but I do hold them at a little higher artistic standard than, say, Toei or Sunrise (toys, toys, toys!). Even GONZO, which I think has the best animation techniques anywhere, produced a good but utterly uncontroversial anime called "Last Exile" with its own money last time around. And currently, much as I love BakuTen's eye candies, I ain't expecting GONZO to break any shonen anime convention or stereotypes anytime soon.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Lambda

...Animation isn't just about meticulously imitating reality, it doesn't even have to be consistently animated. It's about what it can convey. GAINAX may not have as much money to spend on their animation as some, but they are so clever at spending it, they utilise so many tricks and techniques that most animators don't seem aware of the existence of...

That's not anything different from what I said, except I haven't seen any special "tricks" from GAINAX. Innovative or interesting storytelling is not their exclusive domain.

Originally Posted by Lambda

That's so far away from my perceptions of them it's unreal.

A rather unfortunate choice of phrase.

Originally Posted by Lambda

Everything they've ever done (Ebichu and some strange series on animenfo that nobody seems to know anything about excepted) has had something really quite special in it for me, (not necessarily consistently, there are lots of episodes of Mahoromatic I'd quite happily throw away, but equally there are moments that are indelibly burned onto my memory), and everything is so different to what the rest of the market is offering, differing on many levels. GAINAX just have an approach to making anime which is utterly unlike any other studio.

Every studio's approach to making anime is very unlike any other, as can be seen by perusing lists of the various studios' body of works. As for the rest of this, it says nothing concrete except that you have an opinion - it certainly doesn't bolster any argument such as the concluding sentence.

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

Every studio's approach to making anime is very unlike any other,

Descriptive terms are relative.

As for the rest of this, it says nothing concrete except that you have an opinion

And how exactly do you avoid judgements on the quality, interesting or exceptional nature of titles being opinions? Your opinions are merely opinions too.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Lambda

.And how exactly do you avoid judgements on the quality, interesting or exceptional nature of titles being opinions? Your opinions are merely opinions too.

I thought babbito2k was referring to what you said about Gainax's approach being utterly different from that of other studios.

Originally Posted by lambda

...everything is so different to what the rest of the market is offering, differing on many levels.

Hi no Tori is "different." Monster is different. Heaven knows that Paranoia Agent is different.

This Ugly and Beautiful World? .... Not so much.

[dreamless]

I think Gainax shows are more like "weird" than "different"

[CorneredAngel]

Originally Posted by dreamless

I think Gainax shows are more like "weird" than "different"

Give me one thing about Nadia - or Wings of Honneamise - or Gunbuster - or Puchi Puri Yucie - that is "weird". But "different" - plenty. (...although maybe not *quite* so much Nadia as the others...)

And like I keep saying, what Gainax does is they manage to achieve the full potential of using the combination of image, cinematography *and* story. Whereas with most other studios, even if the animation is brilliant, the story is nothing out of the ordinary - and, for that matter, the animation is well-crafted, but no different from the animation in a dozen other shows.

Notice, for example, how nobody will ever actually mention things like camera angles, shot composition, pacing and use of music when talking about anime that isn't Gainax...

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Lambda

And how exactly do you avoid judgements on the quality, interesting or exceptional nature of titles being opinions? Your opinions are merely opinions too.

You don't say what you find special or how GAINAX is different, or in what way GAINAX is different. I said before that I didn't think GAINAX or its anime had any special attributes; you chose to refute my remarks but you don't provide any criteria on which to evaluate your argument.

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

And like I keep saying, what Gainax does is they manage to achieve the full potential of using the combination of image, cinematography *and* story.

I think it was more a matter of very good writing, very good music and an overall interest in getting a story told that distinguished GAINAX's crowning achievements. But I think that without Anno the studio is seriously lacking in the writing department.

Kare Kano was a seriously underanimated feature, using far fewer cels per episode than the average series at the time it was made. The story was disrupted by recap episodes. I greatly admire the show but I cannot consider it to be groundbreaking in terms of its animation; as a story it relied very heavily on the excellent manga it was adapted from.

And I can't seriously consider GAINAX to have any monopoly on good storytelling; I do not find that an unusual trait.

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

Whereas with most other studios, even if the animation is brilliant, the story is nothing out of the ordinary - and, for that matter, the animation is well-crafted, but no different from the animation in a dozen other shows.

Notice, for example, how nobody will ever actually mention things like camera angles, shot composition, pacing and use of music when talking about anime that isn't Gainax...

I think that depends on who is discussing what and what they come away with after seeing any given series. Azumanga Daioh, for example, is visually quite distinctive and uses its score very expressively. The voice acting was also of a quality rarely equalled. Because the characters are so memorable and well-rendered, though, most of the discussion of that series tends to focus on them and technical aspects get less attention.

Azumanga's story may not seem like much but it allowed for the development and expression of a large cast of characters and appealed to a very large cross-section of fans.

[the_marshal]

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

Notice, for example, how nobody will ever actually mention things like camera angles, shot composition, pacing and use of music when talking about anime that isn't Gainax...

I do like most of the gainax work I saw so far and I am also expecting "Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai" to become more and more interessting and dark as the serie goes on...

Well to go back to the quote.... I like gainax but I realy can't agree with your comment !

use of music..., yes somme of gainax work are great (eva !) but I would personnaly mention anime like Cowboy bebop (!!), Noir, Hack sign, Haibane Renmei or Rahxephon....
And for camera angle, shot composition.... imo some of the anime I mentionned are also quiet interessting (well not hack sign but Noir do great shot composition... imo)

And Gainax did take great risk producing some anime but for ex. "Serial experiment lain" should have been very risky as well as it realy isn't anything conventional...

Well I do agree some Gainax works have something special but there is more that just gainax imo

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

Notice, for example, how nobody will ever actually mention things like camera angles, shot composition, pacing and use of music when talking about anime that isn't Gainax...

Are you kidding? This is the silliest statement I've read all week.

Try discussing Haibane-Renmei, RahXephon, Texhnolyze, Boogiepop Phantom, Kino's Journey or Revolutionary Girl Utena and not end up talking about the things you listed above. I don't care how much you like Gainax; obviously this is a matter of personal taste and you're perfectly entitled to praise them to the heavens. But claiming that non-Gainax series lack a certain finesse, artistry or sophistication is breathtakingly ignorant.

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

You don't say what you find special or how GAINAX is different, or in what way GAINAX is different. I said before that I didn't think GAINAX or its anime had any special attributes; you chose to refute my remarks but you don't provide any criteria on which to evaluate your argument.

Well, it's all very well to ask that, but it's not exactly something that can be described easily. I've already made a basic description that they make use of so many levels that most studios don't even seem aware of the existence of, but other than that I'm not sure what you can do except give examples. What is more, a lot of their techniques are successful in that they manage to conceal from the viewer how they work, and since I use my subconscious a lot in interpreting anime anyway, a great deal becomes impossible to describe in detail. I don't know what it is about a scene in Gunbuster where the mothership passes in front of a sun and a bulge partially obscures it, than allows it to shine more again before the main body of the ship conceals it that is striking, I'm not even really sure in what way it's striking, but I know my brain is doing a lot with the image, and that I strongly remember it.

So I think the best I can do in furtherance of this is actually to give an example by addressing one of your later points:

Kare Kano was a seriously underanimated feature, using far fewer cels per episode than the average series at the time it was made. The story was disrupted by recap episodes. I greatly admire the show but I cannot consider it to be groundbreaking in terms of its animation;

KareKano has many different animation styles, switching between them depending on the mood it's aiming for.

It makes great use of onscreen text to fill in extra information, where it seems the best way of doing so.

It uses deliberately still scenes or images from the manga to give feelings, a sense of importance and/or a sense of being a statement to images.

When they decided they couldn't do any more recapping but still didn't have any money, they brought out an episode using cardboard cutouts, and actually made it work, adapting the way it was done so cleverly.

They step outside normal boundaries every so often, to put in a nuclear explosion or the like, regularly with things like the taps or the traffic lights. And just look at all the things the opening sequence is doing!

Some extremely clever use of colour, of choice of shot, and so on.

How can you say that animation with all those features breaks no new ground?

(Sorry for the scanty details, I've only seen it once and that was a while ago.)

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by Magus IX

But claiming that non-Gainax series lack a certain finesse, artistry or sophistication is breathtakingly ignorant.

Indeed. I think it would be more appropriate to claim that Gainax are the only big studio (not including individual talents) who make this sort of material consistently.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by CorneredAngel

Give me one thing about Nadia - or Wings of Honneamise - or Gunbuster - or Puchi Puri Yucie - that is "weird". But "different" - plenty. (...although maybe not *quite* so much Nadia as the others...)

And like I keep saying, what Gainax does is they manage to achieve the full potential of using the combination of image, cinematography *and* story. Whereas with most other studios, even if the animation is brilliant, the story is nothing out of the ordinary - and, for that matter, the animation is well-crafted, but no different from the animation in a dozen other shows.

Notice, for example, how nobody will ever actually mention things like camera angles, shot composition, pacing and use of music when talking about anime that isn't Gainax...

Wings of Honneamise has the weirdest and crappiest ending ever. Gunbuster's whole concept is quite weird, like making Jupiter explode, destroyed the center of Galaxy, girls destroying billions of aliens. Nadia... well, it's not that weird, but it's not that different neither...