2011-07-08, 08:21 | Link #23121 | |
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Also, yes, Yasu doesn't seem to hate Natsuhi. In fact, alot of things hint that she's actually very sympathetic to all of the Ushiromiya's little ... emotional problems and quirks. However, taking Shkanon as the default solution to the first four games, Yasu isn't always known for doing things that make ... ... sense. <_< |
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2011-07-08, 08:36 | Link #23123 |
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That's pretty much the problem. Whoever killed Krauss was basically intentionally tormenting Natsuhi. Killing Krauss for other ends would be one thing; it'd hurt Natsuhi, but you could have some other objective in mind for which her upset is an unfortunate side effect.
But having him call his wife, only to kill him shortly thereafter? I can only see it playing out in a couple ways:
It's a needless form of cruelty that doesn't match up with what Beatrice is actually trying to do, even in scenarios where she is the culprit. Add to that, in ep5 Beatrice's motive is apparently extracted anyway. I really can't conclude anything else but that there's somebody else at work, but that person's style is distinctly different from the styles of the proposed culprits we've seen (Yasu and Kyrie). Yasu is stealthy, tricky, and clean. Kyrie goes in shooting. Who is this kidnapper who allows for phone calls?
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2011-07-08, 13:52 | Link #23125 |
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I'd say it depends on whether the kidnapper is the murderer.
If the kidnapper isn't, then making it part of a ploy to pressure Natsuhi might make sense. Problem is... Krauss knows too, right? You have him presumably as your prisoner. Why can't you put pressure on him? If the kidnapper is the murderer, they gain little from killing Krauss and less from letting Natsuhi believe he's alive. You don't make demands and then kill the hostage before they've been met. Natsuhi hasn't cracked on Kinzo yet, so even if you planned to kill off Krauss in the end, you'd want to wait until he's no longer necessary.
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2011-07-08, 15:20 | Link #23126 |
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What if Krauss was kidnapped, but he was too difficult to retain, so he had to be killed for necessity or self-preservation and the kidnapper/murderer had to roll with the lie that he was alive?
BTW further proof that Beatrice isn't involved here: The stakes comment that the magic circles and stuff are all wrong and way too crude.
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2011-07-08, 15:36 | Link #23127 | |
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Last edited by rogerpepitone; 2011-07-08 at 15:47. |
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2011-07-08, 17:14 | Link #23128 |
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There is no difference between Yasu and Beatrice, they're different names for the same person. They're not seperate entities like Shannon & Kanon(though I still refuse to accept Shkannontrice for a number of reasons), they never appear together separately, unless you count Lion & Beatrice meeting(Lion being yet another name for Yasu/Beatrice).
There is no "delusional witch part", that's just Yasu being a delusional witch. There isn't a seperate character in Miyamae Kanako's head when she has her Sapphic fantasies. It's just one of those things that bothers me. I especially hate that "Yasu" has supplanted Beatrice when it was never even her real name anyway. Episode 8 seemed to drive home the fact there was a "real" Beatrice after all; not just a figment of someone's imagination or people acting out her role, there really was someone who went around claiming to be a witch seriously dressed like that. I hate to sound like R07 but people are really starting to remind me of the "Without love" types. Reading Episode 7 and actually paying attention also makes it clear Yasu "Becomes" Beatrice, not "Invents" her like with Gaap. |
2011-07-08, 17:23 | Link #23129 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Food for thought, it might inspire a few...
Coins must have two sides. Isn't it foolish to insist one of the side is the "true side" and the other is a "false side"? The truth of a coin is neither of it's sides, it is the coin itself. The sides exists only for the sake of the coin. Your only real choice is which side you decide to look at, which to put in the back. |
2011-07-08, 18:55 | Link #23130 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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RoseWeave, wasn't most of that stuff already all obvious? Plus, wasn't the ''love'' part based on interpretation?(within a few boundaries), You weren't too clear I don't get what you're trying to say. |
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2011-07-08, 21:13 | Link #23132 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-07-08, 22:57 | Link #23133 | ||
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Of course, as has been debated before, I doubt Yasu has any "true, medical DID" - she's a singular person who can make her own damn choices, and the loveless interpretation is that she just indulges in emotional flights of fancy via fake friends to cope and justify herself. |
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2011-07-08, 23:50 | Link #23134 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I also don't agree on Yasu and Beatrice being exactly the same. Whilst Beatrice was indeed born from some aspects of Yasu's - basically, pranks and "magic" - I think Beatrice, just like the first Shannon is mainly an ideal Yasu aspired to become. At first, Beatrice was an imaginary friend Yasu used to excuse herself for her clumsiness and being forgetful, but eventually she turned that illusion into a projection of herself as a witch who ruled over Rokkenjima, was free from any binding, could do magic, was beautiful, elegant and had a strong personality. After her meeting with Battler, she changed some things, like the physical form (fit to be Battler's ideal woman) and also added to Beatrice the feelings she had for Battler.
So, it is really hard to say Yasu and Beatrice are the exact same person. Beatrice is what Yasu would like to be. This is why Beatrice is weak against mirrors, because it reminds Yasu who she really is.
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2011-07-09, 00:11 | Link #23135 | |
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Doesn't Beatrice(fantasy) lose her ''golden'' title when someone solves the epitaph? If a pro-magic person solves it(kid-Eva in EP 3), they succeed her and then become Beatrice themselves, if a non-believer solves it(Ep 7 gang), then either she reverts back into Yasu supposedly, or(because Ep 7's tea party might not be true), does something that we don't know yet. Furthermore, she gambled more than just her golden title, by offering herself to fate, she put her very existence as a witch on the line for this epitaph, otherwise her tragic determination would seem pointless, what I was saying was, when Battler solved the epitaph, the ''anti-magic'' scenario, or something of the sort happened, therefore Yasu was no longer ''Beatrice'', but back to Yasu's personality according to the rules she set for herself, and then her motive changed into ''Anti-Natsuhi''. But, as apparent, strong evidence is made clear that Yasu does not hold such grudges, I never would have learned this if I didn't say this. However, I refuse to accept the ''Hebrew circles suck'' argument, because if my scenario was correct, and Beatrice did revert back to Yasu, Yasu should only halfway know about the circles compared to Beatrice, ''Maria taught Beatrice'' how to draw them, ''Maria did not teach Yasu'', therefore it would be a contradiction if Yasu broke the rules and still made them expertly, because that admits that ''they are the same''. Yasu is professional and cannot break these rules, anyone who would abide by the rules of the scorpion charm on Natsuhi's door in EP 1 is clearly devoted to being professional. I refuse to be lectured on a view of love if you're just lashing out at my comment on ''delusional''. Ryu did not make this phrase for everyone who disagrees with any negative sounding theory to slash away at any thought, ideal, metaphor, or conception that there might be something wrong with the characters in this tale as if it was some sort of weapon. At least I hope not... I believe that the whole ''love'' approach meant more than just one thing, and that it needs to be interpreted differently for each person(of course, within reasonable boundaries, like, I can't say ''I love to see people die, therefore I see the loveless conclusion with love therefore it contradicts the idea'', so it's only natural that I would approach this in more ways than one. If you have read my thoughts and speculations these past few pages, you should realize that I am giving them with the purpose of having them proved wrong, so I can learn on the corrections and in the long run learn more than simply observing everything myself. What I personally got myself from the ''love'' approach, is that, while the answer my be completely humiliating or cruel, understanding it and not just saying ''Wow this girl is fucked up in the head''(or whatever the truth is'', is something that's extremely important, however that doesn't mean I can dismiss the opinions of characters like Erika and Bernkastel. It's like people who use Erika's cheese argument as a form of refuge to deny any ''bullcrap theory that twists logic'', ignoring the fact that ''Battler came to that conclusion as well'', only difference being that he didn't spend 30 minutes bragging about his superior intelligence to a piece of paper. Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-09 at 00:43. |
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2011-07-09, 04:35 | Link #23136 | |
The True Culprit
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No, someone is impersonating her.
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2011-07-09, 11:51 | Link #23137 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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On the subject of who killed Krauss, I noticed something interesting. Right before Krauss is killed, during the last phone call from the Man from 19 Years Ago, nearly everyone on the island has an alibi:
So we're left with Genji, Kumasawa, and Shannon unaccounted for at that moment. That probably makes Shannon!Yasu the one on the phone, but if we eliminate her as the murderer... The last place Kumasawa appeared was with Shannon, which puts her in murder range of Krauss. I seem to remember that there was a timeline problem with Kumasawa's movements. Didn't she end up making breakfast in the mansion without breaking the seal Erika put on her door overnight, so that she must have climbed out the window?
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2011-07-09, 12:33 | Link #23138 | |
Zero of the roulette
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Location: Finland
Age: 30
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2011-07-09, 14:03 | Link #23139 |
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My proposed reconstruction of Episode 5:
After Krauss & Natsuhi are called away, the other parents decided to fill him in on their suspicions about Kinzo. Shkanon also filled him in on what she had been planning. Somebody came up faking Shkannon's plan. When Rosa left at 1 AM, she told Jessica, George, and Maria about it in terms of "playing a prank on Erika". From 1 to a little before 3, the four of them were setting up the cousins' room. Erika was in on it, knowing that she was supposed to fake those deductions at the end ("At midnight, the living Kinzo did not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's bed."). Genji and Shkannon would accept the authority of Battler after he solved the epitaph. Gohda, Natsuhi, and possibly Kumasawa weren't involved. Krauss couldn't be convinced to join in a fake wilingly, so they had to kidnap him.
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