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SaintessHeart · 2011-05-01, 07:07

Honesty got me into plenty of trouble in the military (got a letter of verbal warning and 8 extras to prove it). And it got me sacked from a job once.

I don't believe in honesty, but I do believe that integrity is important for yourself. Sometimes if I wonder if the value of honesty is negative because not many like to hear anything bad about themselves.

Ronin Aquila · 2011-05-01, 07:41

As a prime example of the double standards that dictate notions of justice in modern popular culture

DonQuigleone · 2011-05-01, 08:35

I think Honesty is definetely the best policy, particularly as Vexx says, in a *qualified* manner.

I say this from experience of playing Diplomacy. As a game it's super competitive, and in the long run you have to lie at some point. But actually those who lie all the time in it fail utterly. Telling the truth, or different forms of the truth, is how you win. Outright lying doesn't work, and it doesn't work in real life either. For a lie to work people have to think you're telling the truth, and if you don't tell the truth most of the time people will always think you're lying.

So basically, telling the truth 100% of the time works better then lying all the time. But lying in the crucial 5% is better then either. But you have to lie with subtlety. You don't conceal the facts, just your intentions.

You have to lie in such a manner that the people you lied to never know about it. The real way to lie with success is to tell the truth creatively.

Outright lying just doesn't work. It's a very noob error to make.

As an example, I wanted to occupy a space X in diplomacy, he was occupying a space next to it, and didn't want me to occupy it. Another player occupied another space next to his. In diplomacy if two players attempt to occupy the same space neither move. So I told him "we'll both move into X and both of us will bounce, this is best for security."

Then I told a third player that to tell the first player that the second player was going to move into his space while I let him occupy the other space, causing him a great loss if he was to do as I proposed.

In the end he got cold feet, and didn't move, I got to move into the space in question. And I didn't lie once, I did exactly as I said I would, and he gave me the benefit of the doubt and just assumed the other guy got some faulty information.

This is how you tell the truth creatively.

HasuMasu · 2011-05-01, 08:52

in my life, i met a genius

this genius revealed to me the true "golden rule"

"wag tanga"

which roughly translates to "don't be stupid"

THAT is the #1 rule that you MUST follow

synaesthetic · 2011-05-02, 19:01

The problem with lies is that they have to make sense. Truth, in its naive innocence, is not bound by the rules of common sense. The truth can be completely nonsensical and utterly unbelievable--and still be true.

Prevarication, however, almost always fails if used in such a manner. It must be believable and logical, and the teller of lies must take care not to become tangled in her own web of deception.

Many a liar, con-man, cheat or scam artist has been crushed under the weight of their own lies.

yezhanquan · 2011-05-03, 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think Honesty is definetely the best policy, particularly as Vexx says, in a *qualified* manner.

I say this from experience of playing Diplomacy. As a game it's super competitive, and in the long run you have to lie at some point. But actually those who lie all the time in it fail utterly. Telling the truth, or different forms of the truth, is how you win. Outright lying doesn't work, and it doesn't work in real life either. For a lie to work people have to think you're telling the truth, and if you don't tell the truth most of the time people will always think you're lying.

So basically, telling the truth 100% of the time works better then lying all the time. But lying in the crucial 5% is better then either. But you have to lie with subtlety. You don't conceal the facts, just your intentions.

You have to lie in such a manner that the people you lied to never know about it. The real way to lie with success is to tell the truth creatively.

Outright lying just doesn't work. It's a very noob error to make.

As an example, I wanted to occupy a space X in diplomacy, he was occupying a space next to it, and didn't want me to occupy it. Another player occupied another space next to his. In diplomacy if two players attempt to occupy the same space neither move. So I told him "we'll both move into X and both of us will bounce, this is best for security."

Then I told a third player that to tell the first player that the second player was going to move into his space while I let him occupy the other space, causing him a great loss if he was to do as I proposed.

In the end he got cold feet, and didn't move, I got to move into the space in question. And I didn't lie once, I did exactly as I said I would, and he gave me the benefit of the doubt and just assumed the other guy got some faulty information.

This is how you tell the truth creatively.

QFT.

Great leaders need and value honesty. You screw up without honesty in the mix, there is no way to set it right. It's the same with addiction: first step is to be honest and admit you have a problem.

The day honesty is not valued, things are going to go down. Hard.

2011-05-01, 07:07	Link #21
SaintessHeart NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~ Join Date: Nov 2007 Age: 35	Honesty got me into plenty of trouble in the military (got a letter of verbal warning and 8 extras to prove it). And it got me sacked from a job once. I don't believe in honesty, but I do believe that integrity is important for yourself. Sometimes if I wonder if the value of honesty is negative because not many like to hear anything bad about themselves. __________________ When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus. Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

2011-05-01, 08:52	Link #24
HasuMasu Senior Member Artist Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: The Middle Way	in my life, i met a genius this genius revealed to me the true "golden rule" "wag tanga" which roughly translates to "don't be stupid" THAT is the #1 rule that you MUST follow __________________

2011-05-02, 19:01	Link #25
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 40	The problem with lies is that they have to make sense. Truth, in its naive innocence, is not bound by the rules of common sense. The truth can be completely nonsensical and utterly unbelievable--and still be true. Prevarication, however, almost always fails if used in such a manner. It must be believable and logical, and the teller of lies must take care not to become tangled in her own web of deception. Many a liar, con-man, cheat or scam artist has been crushed under the weight of their own lies. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2011-05-01, 07:41	Link #22
Ronin Aquila Sky Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jedi Temple, Coruscant Age: 43	As a prime example of the double standards that dictate notions of justice in modern popular culture

2011-05-01, 08:35	Link #23
DonQuigleone Knight Errant Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dublin, Ireland Age: 35	I think Honesty is definetely the best policy, particularly as Vexx says, in a qualified manner. I say this from experience of playing Diplomacy. As a game it's super competitive, and in the long run you have to lie at some point. But actually those who lie all the time in it fail utterly. Telling the truth, or different forms of the truth, is how you win. Outright lying doesn't work, and it doesn't work in real life either. For a lie to work people have to think you're telling the truth, and if you don't tell the truth most of the time people will always think you're lying. So basically, telling the truth 100% of the time works better then lying all the time. But lying in the crucial 5% is better then either. But you have to lie with subtlety. You don't conceal the facts, just your intentions. You have to lie in such a manner that the people you lied to never know about it. The real way to lie with success is to tell the truth creatively. Outright lying just doesn't work. It's a very noob error to make. As an example, I wanted to occupy a space X in diplomacy, he was occupying a space next to it, and didn't want me to occupy it. Another player occupied another space next to his. In diplomacy if two players attempt to occupy the same space neither move. So I told him "we'll both move into X and both of us will bounce, this is best for security." Then I told a third player that to tell the first player that the second player was going to move into his space while I let him occupy the other space, causing him a great loss if he was to do as I proposed. In the end he got cold feet, and didn't move, I got to move into the space in question. And I didn't lie once, I did exactly as I said I would, and he gave me the benefit of the doubt and just assumed the other guy got some faulty information. This is how you tell the truth creatively.