2012-04-06, 11:30 | Link #28321 |
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And just so I can triple post, some other points to consider:
1. Thinking of how much effort we put into solving the games, even if Ep 4 Ange's adventures are bogus, that does not mean we shouldn't put some effort into solving her scenario. If it IS a fiction then it is even more likely we can pinpoint a sensible culprit, WITH all the internal logic that would require. 2. Referring to the heart of Beato's games (at least 1 and 2 and possibly 3 and 4) as all the truths we learn about Yasu and her motivations, it sort of makes it less likely that her stories were written post event to cover culprit X. The only way this would work is if culprit X ties into her heart, otherwise we didn't even come close to any gut tearing. 3. Just because the truth in the book of single truths causes Angie to commit suicide (or likely, the translation of the interview gets a little hazy around this section), it doesn't mean it is necessarily a culprit statement. Couldn't Angie reading that "you/no-one will ever know the truth" or something like that also have a similar effect? The only problem here is it has to be a truth that Eva would keep from her, but that could be as simple as "Battler's actions (sin) lead to the death of everyone". It is even possible it contained confirmation that everyone bar Eva had died, taking away the hope that keeps Angie living. That last one is a little dubious, but interesting to think about. |
2012-04-06, 11:47 | Link #28322 | |||
Goat
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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RK07's interview comments should always be kept in context. In that particular interview Keiya guided a lot of the discussion, so I think RK07 was in part answering to Keiya's particular line of reasoning. Unfortunately, I think people tend to give Keiya too much credit and don't pay enough attention to exactly how RK07 responds to Keiya.
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So, to put it simply, I think it's best to be very careful about drawing conclusions from these interviews and to keep in mind the circumstances in which RK07 says what he says. I think he doesn't like to narrow the spectrum of interpretation of Umineko too much, so he often avoids refuting ideas even if they are somewhat off the mark. Quote:
We've had considerable discussion on this forum as to what EP4 1998 Ange really is. Ultimately I think that EP4 Ange is fictional; she is Touya imagining (possibly with Ikuko's help) what things are like for the real Ange. The question is whether the elements such as Maria's diary, the multiple Sakutarous, and the mysteriously delivered bank cards were things Touya knew about and exposed in the story, or whether he just made them up. I just mentioned how the above "wanting to be stopped" comment should be looked at in context. But to go further, I will contend that sending out money beforehand works with the murder game theory (as a reward for cooperation in an innocent murder game). I don't accept Yasu as being so twisted as to think that money would be any kind of compensation for murder. And even supposing she did think that way, why send a letter to Ange? Assuming Eva died too (as this cruel version of Yasu almost certainly would intend) Ange would inherit everything, so sending her a compensation bank card would have little meaning even in terms of money. Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-04-06 at 12:03. |
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2012-04-06, 20:31 | Link #28324 | |||||||
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Of course it can be said that Will is merely an existence similar to Dlanor, a personification of the 20 wedges however Will seems to differ from Dlanor so I like to think at him as to an alterego of Battler/Toya. It might be just me though. Yasu might have been willing... the general argument against this is: would she ever be capable? Not just capable to make it work (and this in itself is already a hard task) but also capable to... simply do it. Because it's really easy to say 'I hate that person so I'll kill him' and, although less easy, a plan can be made to accomplish this but, once you found yourself about to end a life... well, unless you've a really low moral sense it's not so easy. Also in the interview there's no clear distinction between PieceShannon/Yasu and Prime Shannon/Yasu. We know Yasu was the culprit in the gameboard and Ryukishi confirmed this. What is not so clear is if she was also the culprit for Rokkenjima Prime. Yasu had no reason to protect Ange. If Yasu survived (it's still up to debate if she became Ikuko) and wrote about the witch it was to 'find someone who would solve her mystery/understand her'. Quote:
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But let's assume he was speaking about Prime. As something 'mysterious' would have happened even if Battler weren't to come back it's also possible that Yasu planned to leave/disappear/commit suicide. This would be more fitting with her personality while at the same time might involve a wish to be stopped. Quote:
Ep 8 is mostly Ange's inner battle until she finds her own truth in which to believe. Quote:
In Prime Ange likely disappeared short after Eva's death and EP 4 proposed 2 possible solutions for this: one is the fantasy one, where she was killed trying to help Battler (which can be a metaphor for how Ange suffered), the other... let's call it the mystery one as she's likely killed during the shooting. General belief is that both those two solutions are what Toya thought had happened to Ange after he started to recover his memory, refused to meet her and heard she disappeared short after. Theoretically it's also possible that Ange's adventures in Ep 4 were something that she made up in her mind (her past being the only true thing... even though the 'magic' parts were obviously fantasy). Quote:
So evidently the truth was a little more unpleasant than just 'you don't get to know a thing about it' though the book might have not contained all the truth but just the unpleasant part of it. Quote:
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2012-04-06, 20:50 | Link #28325 |
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These are some very good points, though there are some holes that can be mentioned. First thing that came to my mind was that if everyone had died then there wouldn't have been that much for Ange to inherit to begin with, remember Eva had to go about rebuilding the fortune by selling off whatever was not blown to smithereens.
Secondly, I still feel that if Ep4 Ange is a fictional one then it should be possible to construct a working theory for how her world went, because while Ryu does play vague context games (that interview must be heavily edited unless he is just that well prepared/quick on his feet to come up with such carefully worded word games), he did state there was a truth you could arrive at with investigation. Even if this only applies to Ep4 Angie's scenario, I feel there is an answer that should be met with more certainty. Furthermore, if you state that her "imagining an incident" refers to constructing the stories of the message bottles, then so too must "carrying out the incident". I'll agree that the context is vague, but hopefully it is consistent. Finally, while the murder game scenario does have a lot of reasonable points (despite going against my confession's direct interpretation (which is fine)) and it IS possible one of the pre-warned adults hijacked it all, it does leave a few points that annoy me. 1. If the game was so innocent, why send the money to the relatives of the players? Especially when one of them was 6 years old. If she decided to do them all this way then how was she going to pay those who had no off-island family, and if she was just going to pay everyone then the adults wouldn't have been so money stricken anyway. 2. Why send them as if they were sent from the relatives when the letters would likely have arrived after they had returned home safely and all answers had been revealed/solved. 3. While money isn't enough to make up for the murder of a family (just ask Lamba about this one), could it not equally be interpreted that if she knew the whole island was going up she knew the wealth needed dispersal as payment before the game began? 4. Would Yasu pay them off twice? In her forgeries it was sort of implied that she did a big reveal of her plans while on the island, unless this is a load of croc she probably would have had to do the paying while there. Also what did she plan to do with all the gold? If she was going to divide it, why send out payment beforehand when NONE OF THE PEOPLE PRESENT could really confirm it had been sent except by her word? 5. Would everyone go in with that idea anyway? I believe one of the episodes addressed everyone agreeing to sell off the family name for money, and this is asking everyone to scare their family half to death. Unless it was meant to be played as a pure game, in which case it should have become evident after TW1 that it was NOT. (It interested me that they always referred to the red gory parts on people as makeup in the games, but come on, it is pretty hard to 'make up' holes in people's faces. I'd like to think even gameboard accomplices must have picked up on this and stayed silent for other reasons, which become more difficult if everyone is equally involved in the scheme). I realise this is all possibly only relevant to Ep4 Ange, but I still want to know her story.... And some further questions: 1. Did anyone else ever wonder exactly when Kumisawa solved the epitaph? It seems likely she did from her possessions, and why would Ryu bother showing this to us? 2. Did anyone else notice that if you use the phrase "I wouldn't put it past Ryu" from the logic of Umineko you are basically stating that you are believing in a reason or circumstance that is simply untrue? Phew that was a lot of typing, I should get a job writing meta-dialogue for the seven stakes. |
2012-04-06, 21:13 | Link #28326 |
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Just as nitpicking, I am pretty sure telling Ange she wouldn't know a thing about it was Eva's last shot to her, which if we take her metaphorical journey to search for the truth as being what keeps her from stepping off the ledge, is probably not as weak an insult as you think.
Also you make a good point about her resolve, though I did mention the whole willing and able to carry out context, here is some food for thought: Do you think it would be equally within her character to set up a scenario where others might kill? It is a bit like having the bomb set and waiting for someone to turn it off (which flipping the switch is arguably a passive way to kill everybody, especially as she leaves it to fate whether or not it is switched back). We know she likes leaving things to fate, so I wonder if she could have merely placed all the pieces to the murders in everyone's hands, and then sat back and let fate decide what went on? Also, this could be completely wrong, but I always assumed the incident that would have happened had he not come back would have been the death of either Shannon or (more likely, come on) Kannon. More importantly, not only would it be a little harsh of Ryu have likened her to a culprit forewarning of his crimes if she really wanted to be stopped from leaving or disappearing, but if we take that idea to be true, when she was understood by her messages, those things still would have happened. Though she would have accepted anyone, she WANTED Battler to solve it, which would have killed off Kannon at least anyway. So we know it had to be something that would have been stopped had it been solved, which could be her suicide, except that would not have been very mysterious. |
2012-04-06, 22:28 | Link #28327 | |||||||||||||||
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Ergo someone older was supposed to receive the letter. Also the letter was addressed to Rudolf and not to Ange. Plus Yasuda couldn't know Ange would have fallen sick. If Ange too had been there and died there would have been no point in sending her the letter as no one would be there to receive it. Quote:
If you're talking about which end she met it's pretty clear that on Rokkenjima she ended up being shoot, possibly/likely by Amakusa as heavily implied by EP 7/8. Quote:
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If it's a game/believed to be a game people might accept to play... if it's the real thing I doubt it unless seriously threatened. And even if that was the case many Ushiromiya might think to attack her as they're strong enough to deal with a girl. Quote:
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Saying she purposely set up a scenario where other would kill to me is like saying she killed by proxy. It's easier than doing it personally but much more risky and harder to control. We don't even know if she was the one who flipped the switch or someone else did so and, as long as you plan to switch off the switch there's no murdering intention (though it'll be hard to prove it in front of a jury). In short the problem many have is that yes, Yasu might have planned a mass murder and then done it but it just wouldn't fit with her character or with what Umineko implied. Quote:
In short they would both disappear and since they're the only real faces Yasu have, Yasu would disappear. It is however debatable if Yasu would disappear throuh suicide or throuh faking it. If she managed to build up the Ikuko's identity she might have considered leaving. If she planned to die she might have considered dragging George and Jessica with herself as well in a love suicide. We'll never know unless more material is released... Quote:
If Battler weren't to return she would likely have no one to whom ask to stop her as her messages in the games were target made for Battler. Of course here we're assuming that Prime Yasu had in mind to kill everyone and herself... and we don't know if that's true... |
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2012-04-07, 00:27 | Link #28329 | ||||||||||||
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Basically as to who the culprit really was in that whole layer of her world.
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2. Assuming the hope of learning something was what was keeping her alive, finding there was no hope of learning anything might just cause her to go over the edge. It seemed like she planned to kill herself at the end of her journey unless she found some reason not to along the way anyway. I could easily speculate her reaction at reading the book was her despair over having to finally give up any hope of learning more about the day, and having that last "what if" crushed. We know despite her cool demeanor, her piece at least still held onto a lot of these little hopes. Quote:
Furthermore, isn't a risky and hard to control situation exactly what Shannon's character would like? The romance of leaving the outcome to fate, with all the risk being able to be taken by passively waiting around to see the outcome? Quote:
Of course, I can't deny she was just about to throw it all in and kill off all of her personalities, sort of Ep 4 style. Quote:
I know I originally had more points, especially regarding the bit about dividing the fortune, but this is all I can remember for now..... |
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2012-04-07, 00:56 | Link #28330 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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One thing I'm sure everyone can agree on is that whatever Yasu did, it was some kind of cry for attention. Quote:
1. To elaborate on what has already been brought up, the letter that Ange got with the bank card had a bogus send-to address and the return address of her father. So there's no reason to assume she was the intended recipient unless you believe that the sender knew Rudolf would be dead by the time it got to his house. Also since it's the return address method, the mailing trick could have worked on the Rokkenjima mansion's address just the same as any other address (assuming the mansion's destruction wasn't intended ). 2. I don't know. It could have been an additional award Yasu was giving without any announcement; like, she had already planned to give all the money away but didn't want to give it away before the game or else she wouldn't have all the leverage she might need to gain everyone's participation. She may have used blackmail or threats to get peoples' cooperation, too. 3. Sure. But if she knew the island was going to blow up, she's pretty evil. And if she's that evil, why the good deed of dispersing the money? 4. See answer to 2. 5. I agree that people going along with the murder game is kind of hard to swallow, but I'd like to point out that going along with real murders is even harder to swallow. Let's also keep in mind there could be ulterior motives to participation, like what we see in End where pretty much everyone participates in a fake murder scenario to corner Natsuhi. The first Twilights of Legend and Turn do seem like they couldn't have been faked, but honestly I just have to resort to hand-waving those parts because everything fits so well if they are somehow fake anyway, despite their description. I don't remember this about her possessions, but in any case I wouldn't find it strange if she was in on it from the beginning, like Genji. Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-04-07 at 02:30. |
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2012-04-07, 05:14 | Link #28331 | |||
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Fatigued from reading pages and pages of posts.
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I think in EP7, it was almost exactly said just as you say here, I'm pretty sure it was something like "There definitely would have been a 'strange incident' on Rokkenjima in October 1986, but without Battler it would have been rather small." The impression I get is that it would've been a "strange thing that happened, once", that the family would occasionally bring up at dinner for years to come. Ha, maybe it was George announcing his engagement on the same day that Kanon flipped his little stripey-socked lid and loudly quit in front of everybody after cursing Natsuhi out or something. |
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2012-04-07, 05:16 | Link #28332 | |
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The first twilight of Legend doesn't seem that hard to fake. The only real wounds were on the faces, right? It could have been done with 'bloody make-up', heck, they even use the word 'make-up' repeatedly during that section to hint it. I'm sure if someone had tried actually touching the faces it would have become clear that they weren't really damaged.
For Turn, the candies could have been covering the supposed openings in their stomachs, right? Wasn't the only one who actually saw their stomachs sliced open Rosa, who's an accomplice? It would be difficult, but I don't think it's impossible. Quote:
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2012-04-07, 05:35 | Link #28333 |
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Amongst the possessions Angie was shown from Kumisawa's son was a picture of the chapel with the writing translated, to which he mentioned she liked solving puzzles and tried the epitaph. If she got that far, she probably knew the answer (I maybe should have spoiler tagged something here....)
And what I was referring to with the windows, was if it was said in game there was a way to escape the room not using the windows I would be very interested to hear theories on it, if it were said on these boards there is less onus for it to be true. |
2012-04-07, 05:39 | Link #28334 |
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And the thing I was trying to say about Bern's puzzle is the white narration (which HAS to be true) said that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", which if we follow to the letter means that George's "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" false by default. Unless this is a translation error in the patch it is a logic error in the game for George NOT to be lying, hence why I chose him over Battler.
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2012-04-07, 05:49 | Link #28335 |
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Also, I would say that the puzzle of why she sent out the money is an important one, because it is one the characters in metaworld dangled in front of us (for me sort of implying it was something Battler was on a personal level trying to figure out, supporting its real occurrence). If it was to pay people for a murder game, she wouldn't be able to prove she had done it, sort of invalidating its purpose. However if she were just mad enough to leave the possibility of the island blowing up to chance, but not quite mean spirited enough not to send out some money, this could fit with her wanting to be stopped (therefore feeling guilt). This would also fit with what Ryu may have been saying regarding her determination.
However despite what I argue in my devil's advocate way, I too feel that there must be some way she isn't wholly responsible for what went on, as I felt Battler at least believed she was acting as a scapegoat (or Ange depending on whose Meta world it was). Either that or Japanese cultural guilt practices make it ok for him to feel like since he drove her to do it, it was his fault in the first place. If he looks at it from the point of the torture he put her through, it is a possible emotion I guess (from what I have glimpsed in a few movies, Japanese culture treats guilt and its ramifications slightly differently, though this is very vaguely skimmed hearsay) Meanwhile, it seems my (not actually typed in the colour of but in the spirit of) blue truths regarding Ange were effective. |
2012-04-07, 06:40 | Link #28336 |
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Was thinking about theories like George culprit (within the arcs) of Chrono.
That is alternate culprit theories beside Yasu culprit theories. I just don't see how they work. So I'd like to see if anyone has actually a way to deal with this major problem: What's the point for Yasu/Beatrice to write a story if the culprit in that story is someone else? Especially like, in George's case, she'd picture her bf as the culprit. It's nice and all to find alternative solutions, none likes those more then I do, but some answers ends up causing too much nonsense when it comes to fit in other solutions. That said, there might be something I don't see, this is why I'm posting this. |
2012-04-07, 08:22 | Link #28337 | |||||||||||||||
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If you talk about the murders on Rokkenjima in Ep 4 the culprit is always Yasu. It's the culprit in Prime that sadly is always up to debate. Quote:
Now, about imagining things... Imagining things it's easy and with no consequences and, if you're a planner, you generally will imagine in your mind everything regardless of you doing it or not and Yasu IS a planner so if she imagined something it's also possible it was something she mean to carry on. Now let's compare the two fantasies: - killing so many people can be easily imagined but it'll be really hard to carry on both pratically and emotionally. Even if she might have said 'I'm angry with them, I'll kill them all' it becomes hard to believe she had the determination, lack of moral/empathy, the skill and the luck to carry it out. A side of her is fond of those people, they're many, they'll fight back and so on. - killing/faking to kill herself (therefore causing both Shannon and Kanon to disappear) is technically much easier. As no one suspect it there's no one trying to stop her apart her sense of self preservation that would probably prompt her to search someone who would stop her. The island is big, she has access to weapons, all she has to do is to pull an EP 2 trick if she want to murder herself for real or simulate her murder and escape with the boat if she wants to just escape. But there's more. Even if we assume Yasu wanted to be stopped in Prime and that's why she orchestrated the games maybe all she wanted Battler to stop was her marriage with George. She might have thought in the end she would have worked enough courage to tell him the truth (or that she would have postponed the issue) but regardless of her telling him the truth or not, as soon as she leaves Rokkenjima Kanon disappear. The problem with Prime is we don't really have a Prime Yasu among the characters presented. Even EP 7 is the confession of Piece Yasu. Quote:
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Of all the siblings only Krauss said he knew how to convert it in money (and he might have lied) and likely he couldn't convert it all in just a blink. It's possible Genji too knew how to convert it in money, though it's also possible that the money he handed to Yasu was merely Kinzo's property and didn't come out of the gold. Quote:
The adults were disperate. If she sent them messages (instead of meeting them directly) in which she introduced herself as... let's say Beatrice and promised money if they were to do something apparently harmless it's possible the siblings would fall for it or think it was worth a try. In Ep 3 we have all the adults think that 'Beatrice' knows where the gold is and wants them to do something in exchange for the gold. Now, Yasu might have not hold her part of the bargain and not sent out the money... but she decided to do so anyway. Quote:
However if in Prime people didn't die for real the accomplices would still play along. Think at EP 5 or 6 in which people faked their deaths and continued to fake it for a while. Likely in EP 5 Jessica didn't realize she was giving her mother the scare of her life but thought she was merely playing a prank. The same hapens in EP 4 where likely she made the phone call under the impression that everything had been a prank and she fell for it... only in EP 4 she got killed for real afterward. Quote:
Also Kumasawa knew many of Kinzo's secrets, including the existence of Beato 2, Yasu and Kuwadorian. Like Genji she might have known how to reach the gold. Quote:
No, for Shannon and Kanon to exist Yasu needs accomplices among which surely was Genji, likely Kumasawa and Nanjo and possibly even Natsuhi and Krauss that wanted to make sure that, when the siblings were coming to visit, only trusted servants would be around. Quote:
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one was that someone was still alive the other was that Eva, or someone else that weren't her parents, was the culprit. She doesn't really want the TRUTH but a version of the truth she might like. Quote:
She wished/considered to die/disappear then heard of Battler's return and set up the mystery game. The mystery game went wrong and Rokkenjima blew up. Quote:
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For example if she were to leave around a blood stained knife or a ripped piece of her clothes or if someone where to see in the distance something that could look like someone attacking her and, once he were to reach the scene would find nothing. Actually she could even use Battler's trick in Ep 5 and let others think she fell from a window when she actually reached safely the ground and then escaped. For a fake murder there are really tons of tricks she could use... Quote:
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Though if the culprit were to be George I think Ange would have accepted that truth because it would remove suspicions from her parents (even though it was probably not as satisfing as the Eva culprit theory for her). In fact when Erika suggests it she has no complains against it. |
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2012-04-07, 09:25 | Link #28338 | |||||||||||||
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And some general thoughts: 1. Wasn't the whole mirror smashing (which happened arguably in all games) meant to represent Shannon giving into Baetrice's taunts about staying passive leading to everything staying the same forever? This could be seen as her finally taking action.... 2. There is the possibility she has shown resolve to hurt someone before. It is possible that the servant who disrespected Beatrice before falling down the stairs may have actually been a true story, and after all, we know Genji is good at quietly cleaning up the mess of his master....(we also suspect that Yasu apparently liked to make others believe in Beatrice, and post-mirror smash and post-Maria snapping, who know what she became capable of) 3. People always bring up that we know almost nothing about R-Prime, but Ryu himself stated he gave out enough clues to know what happened with pretty much absolute certainty. If this causes people to complain that the only clues we have pertain to events that happened in the games, then that must be where the clues to what happened on R-Prime lie. After all, Battler does know the truth, he just doesn't remember it all at once. 4. The problem with basing culprit theories solely off Ange's reaction, is that her family being the culprit isn't the only thing she could have read in that book she thought was terrible. A big theme in the games was the children's disgust over how their parents were acting over the money, maybe she read something about how her supposedly sinless parents let their greed take over all other morals, and got themselves and others killed in an otherwise avoidable manner. I have thrown around a few other theories about what she may have read in there, all I am saying is, YES we know she thought it was terrible, but what clues do we have about what the terrible thing actually was otherwise? The only problem here is a lot of Ryu's clues are more apparent once you know the answer, and the only way to distinguish them from the red herrings before that point is to look for one answer that ties everything together neatly (which he likes) and cross your fingers. |
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2012-04-07, 10:12 | Link #28339 | |||||||||||||||
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The sentences were said in different moments so taken in context the word can have different meanings and we don't know if the sentences referred solely to PieceYasu or also to PrimeYasu or one referred solely to PieceYasu while the other referred to both. Quote:
The dilemma with Yasu is that I think nearly all the fandom believes her capable to picture herself as committing the murders but only few see her as capable of actually carrying on her plan in Prime. Quote:
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I might be wrong but apparently Krauss didn't really control Kinzo's money that much, he just used Kinzo's name as insurance. Until Kinzo's death Kinzo controlled his own money. If after he died Krauss could have had access to Kinzo's money he could have paid his debts. Quote:
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At this point they should have panicked, realized it wasn't a game and they had been tricked and tattled out what they know. In Our Confession Yasu depicts everyone as pretty selfish so it's possible that on the gameboard Eva and Hideyoshi were willing to cooperate with a murderer but it's hard to think that the real Eva and Hideyoshi would do the same... unless Rokkenjima hosted quite a good group of monsters. Quote:
Technically Kumasawa was Yasu's teacher (same as Virgilia was for Beato) and as she might have behind some pranks and loved to spread rumors she might have represented the 'previous Beato'. "Beatrice" is just a title after all. Quote:
Plus remember Natsuhi tends to check the servants' work so if Shannon adn Kanon's schedule were to cross one of them wouldn't be able to do his job and she would notice. Quote:
However Eva's diary while containing the truth might not have contained the WHOLE truth. If Eva for example saw Kirye shooting at someone and wrote it in the diary this would be true but it wouldn't contain why Kirye shoot to that person. If Kirye did so because she believed that person was actually trying to kill her, regardless of this being true or false, Kirye wouldn't be an evil murderer, just someone who acted in what she believed was self defence. But Eva couldn't know what was in Kirye's mind so her diary can't contain Kirye's motivations just what she had seen. Quote:
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There are many, many theories about Prime but no one can pin one FOR SURE because there's not enough proofs to make it the only possible solution. Quote:
Ange at the time was plagued by the Battler's family culprit theory that used Rudolf's dirty business and Battler's sudden return in the family to say her parents and brother killed everyone. Likely it was this theory the one she wanted to rewrite with her 'death'. |
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2012-04-07, 10:15 | Link #28340 | ||
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Well, VERY technically speaking, you might say George could have killed Kanon, but her game seems to both acknowledge and disregard Kanon, and it's more like he goes poof as soon as Shannon dies rather than being killed outright. |
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