2007-05-20, 12:45 | Link #22 | |
Rawr
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
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People like that scare me because their way of thinking is totaly incomprehensible to me. They might as well be tripod aliens. |
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2007-05-20, 13:37 | Link #23 |
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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It's quite simple christianity stands for freedom, harmony peace to all human kind. When something like the theory of evolution came about the uproar wasn't caused because the theory opposed the bible, but because it denied it. And no, I do not mean it in the sense that the theory itself denied it... but human idiots did.
All the people that have read the bible and either have been schooled in religion will tell you that it doesn't matter if x y z happened 400 years ago 401 years ago 1mil years ago or if it happened at all. The important part is that the teaching be remembered. The human idiots went against the teachings, in a literal fashion, as in saying line this that and that are invalid. So really the problem was never weather either is true or false. (they might as well both be false or both be true) I won't bable any further in the goods and wrongs done because its meaningless to the discussion.. ----- Moving along.. Can one believe in god and the big bang evolution? Yes.. it's hard to phrase but basically the bible isn't a science, it is a teaching. God isn't a dude with a hammer and wrench.. not even the word thing applies. You could say that god created the big bang etc. (but if I don't yell METHAFOR in your face then people will make the same mistake again and again) The bible's teachings are of peace understanding and harmony. To go around looking down on people, cursing people, judging people is not only non-conformant to the bible, but totally against it's teachings.. to spell it out they are sins. (and sorry but these are hard written in the commandments, and there's no metaphor for the specific ones in question) I myself don't believe in what the majority know as christianity. I don't really care.. be it as is that the part I believe in has lost its name, it means nothing to me. If christianity will become a name for persecution then fine you people can keep it, I don't need a name or pieces of paper for something to believe in it.
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2007-05-20, 19:09 | Link #24 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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As many state here.... "creationism" and "intelligent design" have very little to do with actual christianity as a spiritual belief system and more to do with spin-off cults and sects who over-focus on particular pieces of the Old Testament (which by not even Jews subscribe to literally in most instances) -- which I find to be a riot when the focus of Christianity is supposed to be on what Christ said - aka New Testament writings).
Its anti-intellectualism at its worst and turns many off to the positive aspects of religious spirituality ("Follow the Shoe!!! -- Life of Bryan). Any further comments would just be quoting Richard Dawkins (or even Billy Graham, whom I think gets what is important about his belief system).
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2007-05-20, 19:22 | Link #26 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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And I'll pose a new question to the American community: What's the state of its influence in public education? I've heard of cases where schools actually did not teach or mention the theory of evolution at all. I haven't heard whether they predicated the creationist science doctrine or not, but yet... not talking about something as important as Darwin's theory on evolution seems so alien to me... Then, I look back at my own country, and I weep for my people. Someone (I think Crovax) has asked me whether this situation was like this in Argentina--not only there are lots of people who have no idea what the theory of evolution is, but most of people don't even bring up the question about the origin of the universe to themselves, not even in an extremely superficial fashion. The things are less grim in the capital, where I live, but when you go to the inland provinces, you start seeing all sorts of creepy stuff.
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2007-05-20, 20:46 | Link #27 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I honestly believe people who don't support evolution don't know what evolution is. Proponents of creationism don't argue against evolution, but rather a parody of it. Unfortunately, their followers who are not versed in evolution see that parody as the actual position. I'm convinced if they were shown what evolution really says they wouldn't be quite so hostile to it. Sure a strict fundamentilist most likely will never accept human evolution, but I can't see any reason they wouldn't support evolution in other life forms.
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2007-05-21, 00:20 | Link #29 | |
9wiki
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The biggest problem here is that people on both sides of the debate for some reason cannot separate the concepts of evolution with the specific beliefs that all life has a common ancestor--or, more generally, that humans and apes have a common ancestor. THAT is what the real hubbub is about: Semantics. Heck, our first understanding of modern genetics was laid out by a Roman Catholic priest. We can observe evolution happening all around us. There is zero conflict between evolution and Christianity/Judaisim. There can be a conflict between those religions and "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" (as opposed to merely the basic theories of evolution that he described in proposing his ultimate conclusions), depending on how the Bible is interpreted, but that's a much smaller issue. The fossil record between ape ancestors and humans isn't at all conclusive. It's barely suggestive. Now, that fact doesn't in itself mean it isn't true! It just means that 90% of this whole debate could be solved by the word "if": If a person does not believe that the world created by an intelligent designer, of course it makes sense to assume that humans and apes, being so similar, have a common ancestor, but to a person whose religious belief inclines them to believe that humans were created as a separate species, it would take a more conclusive fossil record for them to believe God created humans as ape descendants. The whole debate could end there. But so many Christians panic and believe they have to argue 100% in the opposite direction, and so many people who have pursued science in an attempt to disprove religion (somehow mistakenly believing that the two were opposed) egg on the debates by treating hypothesis as fact. Both sides end up building their support bases by convincing impressionable people that they are right and the other side is evil for thinking differently. Somehow, along the way, each side adopted the severely mischaracterized arguments they were (formerly falsely) accused of having. And the much, much more minor debate about the actual age of the earth? I couldn't care any less. The research that places the earth at 6,000 years old is flawed. Then again, so is the traditionally trusted research that places it as so much older. The sad fact is that "most scientists aren't". I expect we'll eventually find that our land mass floating in space has been around for millions of years, but life itself as we know it is far younger than we've been taught. Suffice to say that I'm already separately ashamed of both my brethren in both the Christian and scientific community... and this debate only highlights why. |
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2007-05-21, 00:27 | Link #30 | ||
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2007-05-21, 02:30 | Link #31 |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Some Christians have latched onto the idea that science can support biblical things. The basic idea is that everything is so complex and yet works so perfectly that it can't be a coincidence, some higher power had to be behind it. It's a thought process that tries to discredit any notion that things are coincidental, and that everything was planned to happen. Intelligent design fits that process.
Evolution tends to favor the lucky/coincidental. In looking at the rest of the animal kingdom, only humans are different. While we still have the same instincts to hunt, protect, breed, we also have higher thought that gives birth to things like art, technology, and an innate curiosity to wonder things like "why is the sky blue" "what happens if I do this" "how did the universe come into being" and other such questions. I'm not entirely sure we evolved from apes, but the resemblance is rather striking. We have many things in common with apes. However the fossil record is incomplete and we're still scratching our heads wondering how man actually evolved higher brain functions while other animals have not. We still know very little about the brain even with our "modern" technology. The beauty of god based faith is that it fills in for absence of evidence. When you can't explain something rationally, you simply say god did it, it was his will. Such an easy answer allows people to get on with thier lives without questioning how things really work. Science is not a religion, just a process of figuring out a hypothesis. Those ideas, theories, and how they are worked out are changing all the time. It's rather comical to look back at old "science" and laugh at how people used to think. However, a poor scientist is one who finds an answer and does not question it. A good scientist questions everything, no matter how conclusive the findings are. In any case, neither evolution or creationism/intelligent design are right answers. We know relatively little about how things work, no matter how good our guesses are. Eventually, we'll probably know the answers to a great many things beyond what we know now, but the curiosity will never end and I doubt any human will be satisfied with the answers. I don't think Intelligent Design or Creationism should be taught in science class. There is no scientific proof or method that can show either theory has merit. There is plenty of evidence to support evolution and natural selection however. I don't think a mention of those ideas and how and why they oppose evolution, and discussion on the subject is unhealthy. However, teaching it as scientific fact when it is not such is completely against the point of a science class in the first place. I'm rather sick of people trying to force religion into schools and government establishments. Keep that stuff in the church and home. The constitution allows you to practice any religion you like, but it does not give you the right to force it upon others. By disguising things like Creationism as Intelligent Design under the pretense of science, people with religious agendas are pushing poor information and personal moral beliefs onto impressionable minds. And this might end up sounding inflammatory so I apologise in advance, but the Bible is awful moral teaching. It advocates violence, prejudice, bigotry, cruelty, intolerance...people like to pick and choose what to follow from the bible and what to ignore. It can't work like that. If the bible is really the "word of god", then you must follow all of it. But any intelligent person who reads the bible can tell you straight up that you can't take it literally or metaphorically. In fact, the bible hardly makes any sense trying to read it from cover to cover. It was written by many men, editted over many years by men, and the faith it is based on has committed many atrocities in the name of God and the words of the Bible. Does this mean that the bible teaches nothing but bad? No. There is some good, but it's all common sense. Don't lie to others, don't kill them, don't steal from them, don't break a bond of marriage by commiting adultery. Certainly nothing to form a religion over. You don't need a God to become a better person, all change begins with taking responsibility for your own actions and learning from your mistakes. Personal belief here. There is nothing wrong with faith. Faith in yourself, in others, it can help pull you through some bad times. There is certainly nothing wrong with prayer to a higher power. But the blind following of a religion or a book /writing to give yourself moral code is a poor excuse for not thinking for yourself. You should never say that something is bad because the bible says it is. You should be saying it's bad because YOU feel it is. You should be understanding that not everyone feels the same as you, and that it is better to compromise than to be forceful in your objections due to your moral center. Peace, love, and understanding don't require heaven, god, or religion. They just require some common sense, compassion, and a little faith that things always work out no matter how bad they seem at the time.
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Last edited by Solace; 2007-05-21 at 02:31. Reason: The novel needed more pages. Blame the publisher. |
2007-05-21, 04:07 | Link #32 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Certainly if you look at it from human perspective. But that is why the Bible has a different standard for "good" and "bad". Human morality is not even really the main point of it all.
But, anyways, to the subject at hand: While I won't necessarily ignore the idea of evolution (at least, my physics teacher told me that the different dog breeds is a result of microevolution, but whatever) it doesn't necessarily mean it's what happened in the past. For example, an adult comes from a child, which in turn comes from a baby. But it doesn't mean that's what happened to Adam. So now this brings me to my point that people (who believe in creationism, at least, the Christian version) shouldn't have to try to use science as a support for their belief, although I have yet (with my limited knowledge) know of any scientific theory that truly contradicts the Bible beyond the shadow of a doubt, and this includes evolution (see my reasoning above). I mean, when you look at it, what is the theory of evolution really? (Correct me if I'm wrong or missing some vital part, but) doesn't it basically describe what seem to have possibly happened with life on Earth and how based on the variations and similarities among different species that Darwin and other scientists may have noted as well as our understanding on how genes (and therefore traits) are passed on? So going back to my point, the rules (laws of physics, chemistry, etc.) may be there (and according to Christian belief, it would have to be made by God), and since it is made by God, He has the choice of when and at what stage to implement them. Therefore, the only thing I'm worried about are the fanatics that try so hard to use science to support their creationist belief (which is I believe what the opening post is about?) to such extreme that it may ended up giving people the wrong idea. At the worst case possible, they may end up trying to use the Bible to justify their own sets of belief: (I just remember the geocentric view). (I'm 99.99% sure the world is round, ) On the other hand, I'm also weary with people who says evolution proves Genesis, and the whole Bible by extension, wrong. I mean, it's like seeing a curve with a slope of 1 at around the point (90, 90) and concluding that the curve must pass through the origin. Who knows, it might be a piecewise function and the curve never even get near the origin. But you can't see that because you're only seeing a part of the curve. P.S. I agree on someone's opinion that creationism shouldn't be taught in a science class (as most people understand it today, science class that is). |
2007-05-21, 14:21 | Link #33 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Bananas: proof that God exists and shaped the universe.
Hopefully the guy's not serious and this is a parody video, but sadly I don't think it is... Quote:
And, for yet another spin on things -- I recently read Deepak Chopra's Life After Death (very possibly where I heard about the above scientist belief) and he said something about us and our understanding of the universe that went like: Imagine you're an ant, inside a television. You see these pixels flying around, some red, some blue, some green. When you're right next to the tube, the patterns appear random, senseless. There is no order to it, each one appearing to be spontaneous. However, when you step back, step out of the frame of reference you're used to...you begin to see shapes. Those patterns that seemed so random and senseless, begin to form lines. Step back further. Now you see faces, now you see things, and you realize those pixels that seemed so random, really weren't... |
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2007-05-21, 15:13 | Link #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis MO
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I would like people to consider this...
science and religon seem to be locked in a battle agianst one another. Maybe we interpret the bible to literaly. In theory God created the everything, but does the bible specify how? Perhaps the "days" they speak of are really thousands of years. Perhaps the animals god created included dinosaurs. I am not a very religous person, but when people are closed minded and decide that dinosaur fossils are fakes, sent to test our faith, it disturbs me. In school they never mentioned anything to us about evolution they simply didn't mention it. (I guess they didn't want to create controversy) |
2007-05-21, 16:22 | Link #35 | ||
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2007-05-21, 21:37 | Link #37 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I am mildly surprised that no one has yet brought up mention of the august Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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2007-05-21, 21:40 | Link #38 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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The problem is, we can't (yet) have an account of every single element of a system, and that's why most of things can't be fully explained scientifically. To dig further into the topic, there's the Theory of the Eternal Return (not too sure of the title or where did I get it from, maybe I'm talking about something else...), which understands the universe as a perpetual coming and going of the same--the Big Bang explodes, the universe expands, gets to a standstill and starts contracting again, till we get to a single point where all the mass and energy of the universe is concentrated. Then the Big Bang occurs again, and every single element reorganizes itself exactly the same way as before--so we'd get the same results, the same history of humankind, the same evolution of species, everything. For a (kind of) applied determinism -on society-, read some Marx, which helped me build most of my background theoretic corpus.
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2007-05-21, 23:13 | Link #39 |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 35
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I am now going to specifically state now that I'm not going to get involved in this debate aside from giving my opinion:
I believe God created the heavens and the earth, and that God gifted humans with the power of analysis to determine the properties upon which He created the Universe and lets it run. The chances of life spontaneously forming and then evolving, even over tens of millions of years, is statistically ridiculous. After all, how can one explain the more-or-less perfect conditions for living on the planet in terms of perfect distance from the sun, gravity, composition of the atmosphere, etc. with mere science. Whatever we think we might know about the universe is substantially greater (and, IMHO, will always be) that what we actually do know.
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2007-05-21, 23:31 | Link #40 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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