Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

They own the series in its entirety, so yes, it probably did.

If that's your position, then I make the same request to you that I made to Bri - Show me the pertinent sales figures, please.

I'm not saying they're perfect. I'm saying that you should stop demanding they do what you want.

I'm not "demanding" anything. Please link me to a post where I demanded something of KyoAni.

I've simply voiced criticism of them, and questioned some of their decisions.

[hinode]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Because they're a business. They're a company. With customers.

Good companies try to keep existing customers happy, imo. There's nothing wrong with also trying to expand the customer-base, of course, but I do think there's valid criticism to be made of a company that basically abandons loyal, existing customers.

Kadokawa is the one who has to worry about keeping the Haruhi fanbase (and the much less prolific FMP fanbase, for whatever that's worth) happy. Kyoto Animation's customer in this context is Kadokawa themselves. Aside from shows where they own the IP themselves like Chuunibyou, the revenue they generate is determined by the contract they sign with Kadokawa. It's entirely possible that their fee is determinely upfront with no correlation to later disc or merchandising sales; for all we know, KyoAni might've earned more revenue making Nichijou than Haruhi 2k6, since they were a bigger brand with a stronger negotiation position when they made the former.

Business-to-business transactions are less frequent than business-to-consumer ones and generally involve complicated negotiations with two legal teams involved at every step. There's no public evidence that Kadokawa is dissatisfied with their relationship with Kyoto Animation, and certainly none that they are demanding specific series be made that KyoAni is resisting. A more likely issue to complicate their relationship in the future is Kyoto ramping up their own Light Novel division and using anime productions to promote it; they are setting themselves up as a competitor to Kadokawa right now, in the latter's primary business. That's much likely to cause a strain in their working relationship than the lack of Haruhi S3, and any complications in that particular corporate relationship would still be purely speculative at this point.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If that's your position, then I make the same request to you that I made to Bri - Show me the pertinent sales figures, please.

It honestly doesn't even matter if Tamaket's promotional material did particularly well. The post above mine explains why.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Listing Gonzo works like Strike Witches and Saki is rather cheap given what happened to that studio. KyoAni is obviously not like Gonzo in that regard.

Just like Gonzo temporarily went under, KyoAni has fallen into a situation where it is unable to animate more of a certain franchise, by focusing on its own IPs. They're obviously booked to the brim at the moment. This is a decent excuse to hand over Haruhi elsewhere, although I doubt that we'll see more Haruhi regardless.

[Archon_Wing]

Okay. Let me try to summarize the sentiment from a casual viewer.

I thought Haruhi is a good series. Not particularly a masterpiece but incredibly enjoyable and impacted the way I viewed anime since it encouraged me to seek out more modern anime. So it's only reasonable to treat it as a landmark. I mean Yuki is cool, Kyon is snarky, Haruhi has a nice ass, and Mikuru is umm... I'll get back to you later on it.

So the first season was great though it left behind some mystery due to the peculiar narrative. So when 2009 came and the new airing came out I was expecting for some payoff of what was built up.

Oh dear. So apparently Endless Eight is more appreciable if you were into the novels, but I just got shut out, and this alleged "trolling"... well trolling is only fun if you're the one doing the trolling. Still, I was wondering why the fuck they'd redraw everything with such subtle changes. Surely there must be a point to the series. But I guess not. I was stuck looking at that other 2009 blockbuster about cats and staples, but it really wasn't the same. It wasn't.

So everyone told me that it'd be all answered in Disappearance. Now Disappearance was a fine movie with good development for Yuki, Kyon, and Haruhi who had an amazing look that remains the most alluring version of her to date. And there were a few things here and there. But I must admit it wasn't really the holy grail the fans that would make this story a enlightening experience. So what was the point of all this? It's fun, but eh, as each day passes, I just got the feeling that the content being released so slowly was because in reality the writing was just full of crap and there really wasn't a payoff.

Still, I guess what I'm saying is that it did manage to hold my intrigue for about 2 years and whenever it aired back. However it this point I feel so distant, and if a new season aired right now, I felt the enthusiasm has died down. Though part of it is due to me changing too, with my preferences. It's to the point where if you told me there was a new Kiss x Sis OVA, I'd probably be more awake. Is there a point to this? No, not really. It's just that the priority for that particular series has dropped to the point and am I the only one to think like this?

[ultimatemegax]

The KyoAni Shops and affiliated bookstores do not report to Oricon, so we will not have any "sales estimates." Merchandise is not tracked at all by anyone in a similar manner like disc sales, so we cannot give you any numbers.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Okay. Let me try to summarize the sentiment from a casual viewer.

I thought Haruhi is a good series. Not particularly a masterpiece but incredibly enjoyable and impacted the way I viewed anime since it encouraged me to seek out more modern anime. So it's only reasonable to treat it as a landmark. I mean Yuki is cool, Kyon is snarky, Haruhi has a nice ass, and Mikuru is umm... I'll get back to you later on it.

So the first season was great though it left behind some mystery due to the peculiar narrative. So when 2009 came and the new airing came out I was expecting for some payoff of what was built up.

Oh dear. So apparently Endless Eight is more appreciable if you were into the novels, but I just got shut out, and this alleged "trolling"... well trolling is only fun if you're the one doing the trolling. Still, I was wondering why the fuck they'd redraw everything with such subtle changes. Surely there must be a point to the series. But I guess not. I was stuck looking at that other 2009 blockbuster about cats and staples, but it really wasn't the same. It wasn't.

So everyone told me that it'd be all answered in Disappearance. Now Disappearance was a fine movie with good development for Yuki, Kyon, and Haruhi who had an amazing look that remains the most alluring version of her to date. And there were a few things here and there. But I must admit it wasn't really the holy grail the fans that would make this story a enlightening experience. So what was the point of all this? It's fun, but eh, as each day passes, I just got the feeling that the content being released so slowly was because in reality the writing was just full of crap and there really wasn't a payoff.

Still, I guess what I'm saying is that it did manage to hold my intrigue for about 2 years and whenever it aired back. However it this point I feel so distant, and if a new season aired right now, I felt the enthusiasm has died down. Though part of it is due to me changing too, with my preferences. It's to the point where if you told me there was a new Kiss x Sis OVA, I'd probably be more awake. Is there a point to this? No, not really. It's just that the priority for that particular series has dropped to the point and am I the only one to think like this?

Most fans don't understand the point that a "second season" was cancelled and replaced with Sigh/Endless Eight/Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody on TV and a movie. Anyone who says "you'll understand why by watching the movie" is looking for an artistic reason to a business decision made to maximize profits by having revenue from two sources for the most popular Haruhi story.

The real problem with the Haruhi franchise as a whole isn't anything KyoAni did, it's Tanigawa not being able to write novels reliably. They can't promote the series via an anime without anything to actually promote. With it taking at least a year to come up with stories/episodes/character designs/etc, you can't trust that Tanigawa will have something for you to release. To me, KyoAni moving to their own franchises and strengthening their own business means little in comparison to the other problems the franchise had.

[Archon_Wing]

Thanks ultimatemegax, I did feel the whole thing was a bit cynical, even though I do understand that making profit is needed to run things.

Well, I've always been suspicious that the writer just wasn't that good and really had nothing up his sleeve. Hmm... I wouldn't call him a hack yet, but I don't know.

[Goggen]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, I've always been suspicious that the writer just wasn't that good and really had nothing up his sleeve. Hmm... I wouldn't call him a hack yet, but I don't know.

...it's probably not so much that he isn't good as it is that it takes him forever to come out with new material these days?

[4Tran]

Kyoto Animation is deciding to tackle properties that they control with the possibility of garnering better financial rewards from merchandising. They'll also have more creative freedom whilst doing so; up to and including changing whatever they want out of the source material. There's not all that much downside to this, especially on the creative level. While it means that they probably won't be going back to the older franchises that fans may like, this seems to be a much better deal for the studio on the whole than being hired guns to work on shows.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Because they're a business. They're a company. With customers.

Good companies try to keep existing customers happy, imo. There's nothing wrong with also trying to expand the customer-base, of course, but I do think there's valid criticism to be made of a company that basically abandons loyal, existing customers.

It can be argued that, as long as they're making properties owned by other companies, Kyoto Animation's actual customer are the licensing companies. Generally speaking, they'd get paid a set sum to make the show, and will get little from DVD/Blu-ray sales or from other merchandising.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And their recent works, which they own almost entirely, have most probably made them more money than working for Kadokawa or Visualarts ever did.
As it is Kadokawa who owns the rights to Haruhi, it is Kadokawa that should be concerned about the franchise, not KyoAni, and like Warm Mist said, they might not even care. Haruhi certainly isn't their only big franchise.
My advice to you? Move on.

If Kyoto Animation had a significant portion of the K-On pie, then they'd probably never have to worry about money again. As it's unlikely that they'd garner too much royalties from this and other franchises they don't control, it's likely that the most profitable show for them has been Chuunibyou.

I suspect that the only old franchise that Kyoto Animation is interested in making more of is K-On.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Oh dear. So apparently Endless Eight is more appreciable if you were into the novels, but I just got shut out, and this alleged "trolling"... well trolling is only fun if you're the one doing the trolling. Still, I was wondering why the fuck they'd redraw everything with such subtle changes. Surely there must be a point to the series. But I guess not. I was stuck looking at that other 2009 blockbuster about cats and staples, but it really wasn't the same. It wasn't.

I'm pretty sure that Kyoto Animation doesn't want to be forced to make a repeat of Endless Eight, and it's probably played a role in their desire to be more independent.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Lucky Star (no, I'm not even kidding about this one).

I don't even care if a different studio does it anymore. If we get a Haruhi continuation and the staff isn't butt-stupid, it'll be great.

Hmm, Yutaka Yamamoto doing the Lucky Star spin off, that's pretty neat. The series really suffered when Kyoani removed him.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hinode

Kadokawa is the one who has to worry about keeping the Haruhi fanbase (and the much less prolific FMP fanbase, for whatever that's worth) happy. Kyoto Animation's customer in this context is Kadokawa themselves. Aside from shows where they own the IP themselves like Chuunibyou, the revenue they generate is determined by the contract they sign with Kadokawa. It's entirely possible that their fee is determinely upfront with no correlation to later disc or merchandising sales; for all we know, KyoAni might've earned more revenue making Nichijou than Haruhi 2k6, since they were a bigger brand with a stronger negotiation position when they made the former.

Business-to-business transactions are less frequent than business-to-consumer ones and generally involve complicated negotiations with two legal teams involved at every step. There's no public evidence that Kadokawa is dissatisfied with their relationship with Kyoto Animation, and certainly none that they are demanding specific series be made that KyoAni is resisting. A more likely issue to complicate their relationship in the future is Kyoto ramping up their own Light Novel division and using anime productions to promote it; they are setting themselves up as a competitor to Kadokawa right now, in the latter's primary business. That's much likely to cause a strain in their working relationship than the lack of Haruhi S3, and any complications in that particular corporate relationship would still be purely speculative at this point.

Thank you a lot for this informative and interesting post.

But I have to say - I find it a bit amusing given some of the arguments people made defending KyoAni in the past.

"KyoAni would be foolish to risk displeasing Kadokawa." For awhile, this was more or less a central argument that many KyoAni fans made for why KyoAni supposedly couldn't push for more Haruhi.

And yet, here we are with KyoAni now making itself a direct competitor of Kadokawa. So much for KyoAni not wanting to displease Kadokawa. I would imagine that's going to strain KyoAni's relationship with Kadokawa more than asking to do more Haruhi would have.

Originally Posted by Tempester

Just like Gonzo temporarily went under, KyoAni has fallen into a situation where it is unable to animate more of a certain franchise, by focusing on its own IPs.

Focusing on its own IPs is a choice. Its not a choice that they absolutely had to make. So arguing that they were "unable" to animate more of a certain franchise is simply false.

Look, if some people here think that KyoAni are making good decisions, then fine. Say so. At least then we have an actual discussion going on. But this way of wording things like KyoAni just can't help anything that it does is honestly infuriating.

They are a company making choices. People can agree or disagree with their choices just like people can agree or disagree with the choices of any other company.

They're obviously booked to the brim at the moment. This is a decent excuse to hand over Haruhi elsewhere, although I doubt that we'll see more Haruhi regardless.

I'd honestly be fine with Haruhi being handed over to P.A. Works. Nonetheless, its tiresome how this KyoAni exceptionalism persists.

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

The KyoAni Shops and affiliated bookstores do not report to Oricon, so we will not have any "sales estimates." Merchandise is not tracked at all by anyone in a similar manner like disc sales, so we cannot give you any numbers.

I see. So on what basis would anybody claim that Tamako Market made more money for KyoAni than Haruhi did?

Most fans don't understand the point that a "second season" was cancelled and replaced with Sigh/Endless Eight/Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody on TV and a movie. Anyone who says "you'll understand why by watching the movie" is looking for an artistic reason to a business decision made to maximize profits by having revenue from two sources for the most popular Haruhi story.

Doing a Disappearance movie was largely/entirely a commercial decision, I agree.

The real problem with the Haruhi franchise as a whole isn't anything KyoAni did, it's Tanigawa not being able to write novels reliably. They can't promote the series via an anime without anything to actually promote. With it taking at least a year to come up with stories/episodes/character designs/etc, you can't trust that Tanigawa will have something for you to release. To me, KyoAni moving to their own franchises and strengthening their own business means little in comparison to the other problems the franchise had.

If Haruhi only had a novel's worth of content left to be adapted, I could understand and agree with this argument. But there's loads of Haruhi novel content left to be adapted.

A new 13-episode Haruhi anime would likely still leave a fair chunk of Haruhi novel content left to be adapted.

I agree that the biggest problem facing the Haruhi franchise as a whole is Tanigawa's struggles in continuing/completing the story. But I doubt this would be the main reason for there not being more Haruhi
anime since the Disappearance movie.


Edit:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Kyoto Animation is deciding to tackle properties that they control with the possibility of garnering better financial rewards from merchandising.

And the possibility of enduring greater financial loses if those properties fail entirely.

They'll also have more creative freedom whilst doing so; up to and including changing whatever they want out of the source material.

Many anime studios make radical changes when adapting source material into anime as it is.

There's not all that much downside to this, especially on the creative level. While it means that they probably won't be going back to the older franchises that fans may like, this seems to be a much better deal for the studio on the whole than being hired guns to work on shows.

This seems like pure speculation to me.

I'm honestly amazed that those supporting KyoAni's new direction have yet to put out a single hard sales number to support their position. It's honestly startling to me how some here can be so confident that KyoAni's new direction is the best direction it could take given the lack of such supporting data.

It can be argued that, as long as they're making properties owned by other companies, Kyoto Animation's actual customer are the licensing companies.

Their customers are both the licensing companies, and the people who buy the DVDs/Blu-Rays. If they're not benefiting directly from the DVD/Blu-Ray customers, then I would imagine that the licensing companies are (who else would?), so high DVD/Blu-Ray sales would make the licensing companies happy.

[Goggen]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If Haruhi only had a novel's worth of content left to be adapted, I could understand and agree with this argument. But there's loads of Haruhi novel content left to be adapted.

I think the point being made is not that there is reason to not make more Haruhi anime, but that there is little reason to make more Haruhi anime with no new novels on the horizon for which the anime would serve as promotion.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I see. So on what basis would anybody claim that Tamako Market made more money for KyoAni than Haruhi did?

No one does, but we have to allow for the possibility that it did. As it would explain why the 4 latest projects are all based on their own IP. Wouldn't make much business sense of they moved on to a less profitable ventures after Haruhi and K-on.

I do know from the Macross legal fiasco that Japanese law awards nearly all economic exploitation rights to the copyright holder. That is a massive advantage to have over subcontract status.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Focusing on its own IPs is a choice. Its not a choice that they absolutely had to make. So arguing that they were "unable" to animate more of a certain franchise is simply false.

Look, if some people here think that KyoAni are making good decisions, then fine. Say so. At least then we have an actual discussion going on. But this way of wording things like KyoAni just can't help anything that it does is honestly infuriating.

They are a company making choices. People can agree or disagree with their choices just like people can agree or disagree with the choices of any other company.

I do agree with you that I worded that in a poor and incorrect way. I apologize. It is KyoAni's choice to focus on its own IPs, and by doing so, that limits (but doesn't eliminate) the chance of them continuing work on franchises owned by Kadokawa.

That brings us back to the Gonzo comparison. While KyoAni may be alive and well, the production nature of their franchises has shifted drastically. For old franchises from another "era" of KyoAni such as Haruhi and Full Metal Panic, KyoAni might just be considered dead like Gonzo almost was.

I'd also like to add that I don't support KyoAni's new direction, but I don't oppose it either. I want to see more from them, especially the upcoming Kyoukai no Kanata, before I form an opinion.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Most fans don't understand the point that a "second season" was cancelled and replaced with Sigh/Endless Eight/Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody on TV and a movie.

Wait, really? So the second season was originally intended to be something different than what we got? (Which was some weird borderline vaporware thing with Endless Eight comprising about 60 percent of the new episodes) Well, that's interesting.

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Wait, really? So the second season was originally intended to be something different than what we got? (Which was some weird borderline vaporware thing with Endless Eight comprising about 60 percent of the new episodes) Well, that's interesting.

Yes, in interviews/bonus footage on Disappearance, they reveal that the scriptwriters were far along the process for putting it into 7 episodes before the decision was made to make it into a movie. Thus they had 7 episodes to spare and... you know what happened.

[Dr. Casey]

Very interesting.

So those traumatic two months... the many lives that were lost in the Endless Eight War... those dark times could have been avoided altogether.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Goggen

I think the point being made is not that there is reason to not make more Haruhi anime, but that there is little reason to make more Haruhi anime with no new novels on the horizon for which the anime would serve as promotion.

Ok, I get this point. That makes sense.

Originally Posted by Bri

No one does, but we have to allow for the possibility that it did. As it would explain why the 4 latest projects are all based on their own IP. Wouldn't make much business sense of they moved on to a less profitable ventures after Haruhi and K-on.

Hyouka wasn't their own IP. They've only had two projects since Hyouka - Chuunibyou and Tamako Market.

Chuunibyou was definitely a success. It may have even been the most profitable venture for KyoAni itself. I certainly agree that, at least commercially speaking, Chuunibyou was a good choice for KyoAni.

But it seems like Tamako Market is pure speculation, though we do know it didn't sell that well on DVD/Blu-Ray (so there's reason to question how well it sold as a LN and through merchandise).

Originally Posted by Tempester

I do agree with you that I worded that in a poor and incorrect way. I apologize. It is KyoAni's choice to focus on its own IPs, and by doing so, that limits (but doesn't eliminate) the chance of them continuing work on franchises owned by Kadokawa.

That brings us back to the Gonzo comparison. While KyoAni may be alive and well, the production nature of their franchises has shifted drastically. For old franchises from another "era" of KyoAni such as Haruhi and Full Metal Panic, KyoAni might just be considered dead like Gonzo almost was.

Apology accepted.

If I heard tomorrow that more Haruhi was being done by P.A. Works, or maybe A-1 Pictures or Production I.G., I'd be happy with that. Perhaps that's the best hope for us Haruhi fans.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Hyouka wasn't their own IP. They've only had two projects since Hyouka - Chuunibyou and Tamako Market.

I was talking about Chuunibyou, Tamako Market, Free and Kyōkai no Kanata.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Very interesting.

So those traumatic two months... the many lives that were lost in the Endless Eight War... those dark times could have been avoided altogether.

To be fair. It could have been easily avoided if fans had had a little patience at the time instead of going mental. All the content from the canceled second season was eventually released. A bit more even as the movie was well above TV-standards. Although if the announcement of the movie had been done a bit earlier the problem would have been solved as well.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bri

I was talking about Chuunibyou, Tamako Market, Free and Kyōkai no Kanata.

Ok, but in any event, none of this means that Tamako Market was a commercial success.

KyoAni decides to take a risk in pursuing its own IPs.

They hit a homerun with Chuunibyou.

With Tamako Market, they may have struck-out, but decided that it was worth continuing the new direction (hence Free and Kyoukai no Kanata) based on how Chuunibyou paid off. This seems possible to me.

It's possible that Tamako Market was a commercial success, but really, it seems to be mostly a matter of guesswork for either side to be.