(L) 5-Toubun no Hanayome

[elior]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

It's codependenyy indeed, especially with Fuutarou's confession speech. If he can't help a girl all the time, his existence is questioned. If the girl can stand on her own, she is not a candidate in his eyes. I thought at least he understands that there is nothing wrong with not needing help all the time, but guess I was wrong.

why his existence will be questioned if he cant help a girl? also just because yotsuba can stand on her own and being supportive and helping I don't think his existence should be questioned. she is the first one to accept him and help him.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by elior

to put it simple for me it not love. Yotsuba always supported him and been by his side and he wants it to continue. He even said on this chapter himself that he wants her always to stay by his side and support him

Yes Yotsuba has enough merit to win, barely (and certainly less then other two) but still enough. Negi could have pull it off in wholesome and satisfying manner. Problem isn't her winning, but retconing whole story and making it her victory even before she earned enough brownie points and not giving it even basic amount of foreshadowing from Fuutarou side.

That said when it come to supporting alone, it's not like she was even one that did it most or even got close to it. That would be Miku.

If you look back through this thread you can see I often defended Fuu x Yotsuba viability, so it's not like I am against idea itself, even if it isn't preferable one.

You wanted hear my answer so I hope this is satisfying enough for you.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Lex79

The implication he wasn't going to accept their confessions is pretty clear.

You say it was "pretty clear" but don't ever give any proper examples, it's easy to believe your own words when you say a lot but never show any proof.

[Lex79]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

You say it was "pretty clear" but don't ever give any proper examples, it's easy to believe your own words when you say a lot but never show any proof.

Chapter 71, Fuutarou started to answer to Nino's confession. It's then that she made him wait because she knew it wasn't going to end well for her and asked for more time. He didn't even deny her when she said "I know you don't like me". Chapter 86, Miku confesses and Fuutarou's answer is "Yeah, I know, but" and then the pattern repeats, Miku stops him because she knows the answer isn't going to be what dhe hopes for, so she plays the confession as a joke to buy time.
So, yeah, Fuutarou was going to turn down the both of them, and Negi would had to show how and why he has a change of heart if one of them was the winner.

[WingedAccelerator]

Originally Posted by elior

why his existence will be questioned if he cant help a girl? also just because yotsuba can stand on her own and being supportive and helping I don't think his existence should be questioned. she is the first one to accept him and help him.

Chapter 41-42: The whole "They don't need me, I'm not necessary" thought process.
Chapter 57: Itsuki tells him that they should have tried the "everyone is a tutor" method way before Fuutarou. Fuutarou's response: "Are you trying to say you don't need me anymore?
Chapter 62: Fake Itsuki (Miku) wants to end the student-tutor relationship, because Fuutarou stopped visiting them, and only cares about visiting them as his students. Fuutarou instantly backpedals that it doesn't make sense, he wants an explanation, even though he is the one, who casually just said that he has no reason to visit them anymore --> He is not needed.
Chapter 75: Itsuki talks about how she tries to increase her academic skills under Shimoda-san. Fuutarou: " Am I not good enough?" --> He is not needed.
Chapter 98: Fuutarou talks about how Miku becoming his best student from the beginning gave him the motivation to continue tutoring. The moment Miku reveals that she knows what she wants to do, and it has nothing to do with studying, she died for Fuutarou. Miku also has dream --> He is not needed.
Chapter 108: Takebayashi's speech to Yotsuba. It highlights how Fuutarou's life goal is about being necessary for someone, just like Yotsuba wants to do the same.
Chapter 111: Fuutarou wants to interfere in the Mudou business, gets told he is not needed, they will handle it.

Yotsuba keeps screwing up over and over again, so Fuutarou feels vindicated in helping her to fuel his necessary complex. Yotsuba is the same. And once again, she is the first one to accept him thanks to prior knowledge and meeting him. Let's not talk about how Ichika forgetting him was essential for this. Rigged game. If Yotsuba would have won with not knowing who Fuutarou was until both of them developed feelings for each other, that would have been the best for this route. But the result is that she held back, concentrated on forcing the normie life on him, Fuutarou was against that most of the time, only for Negi to pull the opposite in the last few chapters. And she gets rewarded for that, and it even stomps on anything that others have tried, because Yotsuba was already in Fuutarou mind after her "fake confession" even if Fuutarou taking the step to accept that love came later. Be it romantic approaches or help, it didn't amount to anything for the rest. But Yotsuba gets away with causing problems left and right.

[elior]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yes Yotsuba has enough merit to win, barely (and certainly less then other two) but still enough. Negi could have pull it off in wholesome and satisfying manner. Problem isn't her winning, but retconing whole story and making it her victory even before she earned enough brownie points and not giving it even basic amount of foreshadowing from Fuutarou side.

That said when it come to supporting alone, it's not like she was even one that did it most or even got close to it. That would be Miku.

If you look back through this thread you can see I often defended Fuu x Yotsuba viability, so it's not like I am against idea itself, even if it isn't preferable one.

You wanted hear my answer so I hope this is satisfying enough for you.

yes thank you I got the answer I needed. I just felt that in miku case it was most of her falling love. I didn't seen much support from her. in my opinion at the beginning it was lot of supportive manner from her but as it continued it was love and nothing more then that.

[elior]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Chapter 41-42: The whole "They don't need me, I'm not necessary" thought process.
Chapter 57: Itsuki tells him that they should have tried the "everyone is a tutor" method way before Fuutarou. Fuutarou's response: "Are you trying to say you don't need me anymore?
Chapter 62: Fake Itsuki (Miku) wants to end the student-tutor relationship, because Fuutarou stopped visiting them, and only cares about visiting them as his students. Fuutarou instantly backpedals that it doesn't make sense, he wants an explanation, even though he is the one, who casually just said that he has no reason to visit them anymore --> He is not needed.
Chapter 75: Itsuki talks about how she tries to increase her academic skills under Shimoda-san. Fuutarou: " Am I not good enough?" --> He is not needed.
Chapter 98: Fuutarou talks about how Miku becoming his best student from the beginning gave him the motivation to continue tutoring. The moment Miku reveals that she knows what she wants to do, and it has nothing to do with studying, she died for Fuutarou. Miku also has dream --> He is not needed.
Chapter 108: Takebayashi's speech to Yotsuba. It highlights how Fuutarou's life goal is about being necessary for someone, just like Yotsuba wants to do the same.
Chapter 111: Fuutarou wants to interfere in the Mudou business, gets told he is not needed, they will handle it.

Yotsuba keeps screwing up over and over again, so Fuutarou feels vindicated in helping her to fuel his necessary complex. Yotsuba is the same. And once again, she is the first one to accept him thanks to prior knowledge and meeting him. Let's not talk about how Ichika forgetting him was essential for this. Rigged game. If Yotsuba would have won with not knowing who Fuutarou was until both of them developed feelings for each other, that would have been the best for this route. But the result is that she held back, concentrated on forcing the normie life on him, Fuutarou was against that most of the time, only for Negi to pull the opposite in the last few chapters. And she gets rewarded for that, and it even stomps on anything that others have tried, because Yotsuba was already in Fuutarou mind after her "fake confession" even if Fuutarou taking the step to accept that love came later. Be it romantic approaches or help, it didn't amount to anything for the rest. But Yotsuba gets away with causing problems left and right.

ok thank you for explain it to me

[devil_slayer]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

No, all he had to do was reply to Nino and Miku because he never turned them down, not once, all that happened was that Nino told him that she didn't need to hear his reply yet and Miku just told him that it's his turn to reply to them, you are literally making up things that never happened.

Have you not noticed that all you Yotsuba defenders can do to excuse this is to make stuff up, and flip flop from "but support though" and "well she was the safe girl so it's ok"? That alone says a lot about how badly Yotsuba was handled.

It's heavily implied that he wasn't gonna accept their feelings all the same. If anything Fuutarou growing feeling for Nino or Miku after avoiding them for so long is just as ridiculous.
===============================

I am lost here, why does everyone keep saying the game was rigged and Yostuba won before anyone had the chance to try? We still don't know exactly when Fuutarou fell for her and just because he had all those memories doesn't he fell for since chapter 21.

[WingedAccelerator]

Reread the part when he is talking with Rena in Chapter 42. Yotsuba is cooperative and helpful to have around, but she also worries him to most/gives him the most problems. (She validates his necessary complex) And (she is in love with me)... No, I'm just overthinking it. The only obscured part in his thoughts about the quints. (Panel at the end is her "fake confession" from Chapter 21.) It's really that simple. It came back in Chapter 114, both as a flashback and as a paralell to her real confession.

Originally Posted by elior

ok thank you for explain it to me

And to make it more insulting, the eventual winner couple talks about Fuutarou having feelings for Miku in Chapter 72, and his reaction is "What the hell are you smoking, Yotsuba?", then Fuutarou knowing Miku has feeling for him in Chapter 81 has to listen to Yotsuba talking about Miku making a lot of efforts, which Yotsuba ruined by running her mouth loud in the open, while deep down Fuutarou thinks ("Please, stop Yotsuba, I'm not gonna pick Miku, I'm gonna pick you, so I don't care at all that you have ruined her confession attempt")

[elior]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Reread the part when he is talking with Rena in Chapter 42. Yotsuba is cooperative and helpful to have around, but she also worries him to most/gives him the most problems. (She validates his necessary complex) And (she is in love with me)... No, I'm just overthinking it. The only obscured part in his thoughts about the quints. (Panel at the end is her "fake confession" from Chapter 21.) It's really that simple. It came back in Chapter 114, both as a flashback and as a paralell to her real confession.



And to make it more insulting, the eventual winner couple talks about Fuutarou having feelings for Miku in Chapter 72, and his reaction is "What the hell are you smoking, Yotsuba?", then Fuutarou knowing Miku has feeling for him in Chapter 81 has to listen to Yotsuba talking about Miku making a lot of efforts, which Yotsuba ruined by running her mouth loud in the open, while deep down Fuutarou thinks ("Please, stop Yotsuba, I'm not gonna pick Miku, I'm gonna pick you, so I don't care at all that you have ruined her confession attempt")

normally I would be fine with the author go for the safe option which in this case yotsuba but consider what you said it was foolish way to do it. I know there were few mangas that gone to the safe heroine ending and did it well and I was fine with this but here it not the way to do it at all. also I respect your opinion after I read your posts I understood this. also I surprised you remember every single chapter event even if it was pretty long ago

[Sixth]

Some people are just weird here and at 4chan. You guys hate the idea of Itsuki being a winner so much and now Itsuki is not the winner, and now people are trying to downplaying Yotsuba's victory.

[devil_slayer]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Reread the part when he is talking with Rena in Chapter 42. Yotsuba is cooperative and helpful to have around, but she also worries him to most/gives him the most problems. (She validates his necessary complex) And (she is in love with me)... No, I'm just overthinking it. The only obscured part in his thoughts about the quints. (Panel at the end is her "fake confession" from Chapter 21.) It's really that simple. It came back in Chapter 114, both as a flashback and as a paralell to her real confession.



And to make it more insulting, the eventual winner couple talks about Fuutarou having feelings for Miku in Chapter 72, and his reaction is "What the hell are you smoking, Yotsuba?", then Fuutarou knowing Miku has feeling for him in Chapter 81 has to listen to Yotsuba talking about Miku making a lot of efforts, which Yotsuba ruined by running her mouth loud in the open, while deep down Fuutarou thinks ("Please, stop Yotsuba, I'm not gonna pick Miku, I'm gonna pick you, so I don't care at all that you have ruined her confession attempt")

I still don't see your point, maybe Fuutaoru took her confession somewhat seriously so what? He was still all over Rena when she showed up in front of him again.

Suggesting that Fuutarou was in love with Yotsuba since early in the manga is still baseless.

[DanielSong39]

The whole manga is a retcon.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

Chapter 41-42: The whole "They don't need me, I'm not necessary" thought process.
Chapter 57: Itsuki tells him that they should have tried the "everyone is a tutor" method way before Fuutarou. Fuutarou's response: "Are you trying to say you don't need me anymore?
Chapter 62: Fake Itsuki (Miku) wants to end the student-tutor relationship, because Fuutarou stopped visiting them, and only cares about visiting them as his students. Fuutarou instantly backpedals that it doesn't make sense, he wants an explanation, even though he is the one, who casually just said that he has no reason to visit them anymore --> He is not needed.
Chapter 75: Itsuki talks about how she tries to increase her academic skills under Shimoda-san. Fuutarou: " Am I not good enough?" --> He is not needed.
Chapter 98: Fuutarou talks about how Miku becoming his best student from the beginning gave him the motivation to continue tutoring. The moment Miku reveals that she knows what she wants to do, and it has nothing to do with studying, she died for Fuutarou. Miku also has dream --> He is not needed.
Chapter 108: Takebayashi's speech to Yotsuba. It highlights how Fuutarou's life goal is about being necessary for someone, just like Yotsuba wants to do the same.
Chapter 111: Fuutarou wants to interfere in the Mudou business, gets told he is not needed, they will handle it.

I see;

So his decision make sense from view that MC have some kind of dependency complex.
Among quints, indeed only Yotsuba able to fulfill that need, the others are already moving forward to the point they are just fine without MC.

[WingedAccelerator]

Originally Posted by devil_slayer

I still don't see your point, maybe Fuutaoru took her confession somewhat seriously so what? He was still all over Rena when she showed up in front of him again.

Suggesting that Fuutarou was in love with Yotsuba since early in the manga is still baseless.

Looks like you have the do a thorough rereading. He was so all over Rena that the moment Rena disappears, Nino talks with him, he admits that it's easy to talk to Nino when it's just the two of them, he cheers up significantly and admits that you can't stop people from changing and accepts Rena is gone forever. At the end of the arc, he says his proper goodbye. It took him one talk, nothing else. He didn't cry in a corner for days, weeks or months.

I was among those, who didn't want Itsuki to win, because of the usual first girl bullshit. I'm not gonna claim that Yotsuba is a worse choice. But she is the other first girl, which Negi couldn't build up satisfyingly enough and chose the easy way out, rewarding her self-induced suffering. It's not my fault people can't accept that Fuutarou's appreciation towards her comes from the mere fact she was there from the beginning thanks to their promise and she was well aware who is he, nor they can't accept that Chapter 21 sealed the deal. You want another hint than Chapter 42? Chapter 64, when he comes to the conclusion that Miku's worry is the Valentine's chocolates, he wonders when did he start thinking about stuff like that (romantic stuff) in general. Yotsuba's confession, that was it. He was well aware Nino confessed, it was in his mind during the arc, so there is no point in wondering about that if it's a recent event. It seems to me that people are hell-bent on defending and forgiving Negi for everything, just because the typical first girl didn't win. I'm not one of those people, and I'm gonna point out as many times I have the urge that how it could have been done way better, and what we ended up getting is shitting on all of the other heroines.

[Chosen_Hero]

^Preach.

Originally Posted by Lex79

Chapter 71, Fuutarou started to answer to Nino's confession. It's then that she made him wait because she knew it wasn't going to end well for her and asked for more time. He didn't even deny her when she said "I know you don't like me". Chapter 86, Miku confesses and Fuutarou's answer is "Yeah, I know, but" and then the pattern repeats, Miku stops him because she knows the answer isn't going to be what dhe hopes for, so she plays the confession as a joke to buy time.
So, yeah, Fuutarou was going to turn down the both of them, and Negi would had to show how and why he has a change of heart if one of them was the winner.

Chapter 71: Yes as you say he started to answer her and she stopped him, thing is that the only thing about that chapter that hints at Fuutarou at the tine possibly tuening her down was just the trope of the girl that wants to wait for the confession, NOT Fuutarou himself because he didn't say anything at all regarding that because she stopped him and the reason he didn't deny her is just because she told him not to say anything. Why would he as soon as she told him NOT to say anything just come out and say something that even hints at his decision?

Of course, now that we now the choice he made you can conveniently point to that as a sign, but at the time it could have gone either way because we didn't know anything about Fuutarous "true" feelings. Nino got done in by a trope, not because of Fuutarou's feelings.

Chapter 86: Once again, at that point we still didn't know anything about Fuutarous true feeling outside of him never wanting to give a proper reply, something that popped up many times along with him stating that he knows nothing about love (which we now know was clearly a lie). That "but" could have been anything from "but right now I can't give a proper answer so give me time" to "but you are not the only one whose feelings I have to take into account". You can add anything to that but and make it sound like anything you conveniently want (once again just like with Nino, Negi leaving things open so that he can just point and say "but look, this part though" and conveniently say anything he wants as an excuse for the lack of development for the chosen one).

Miku got done in by Negis manipulative writing, heck, you can tell that he hated her the most out of all the quints with how inconsistent he tried (<- emphasis on this word) to make her throughout the series.

Originally Posted by devil_slayer

I am lost here, why does everyone keep saying the game was rigged and Yostuba won before anyone had the chance to try? We still don't know exactly when Fuutarou fell for her and just because he had all those memories doesn't he fell for since chapter 21.

Because the more you think about it the more those kinds of moments stick out where Negi either left things half done or forced a situation like the Bell Kisser just so that he could conveniently use them later on as an excuse for Yotsuba.

But the choice was already made and now he can just use them and claim that it was always there, the game was definitely rigged from the start.

Originally Posted by DanielSong39

The whole manga is a retcon.

Also a bait and switch.

Originally Posted by Sixth

Some people are just weird here and at 4chan. You guys hate the idea of Itsuki being a winner so much and now Itsuki is not the winner, and now people are trying to downplaying Yotsuba's victory.

None of this is because of Itsuki (seriously where do you people keep getting that from? The only one that even makes a mention about that is the tiger, no else), It's about the obvious manipulation by Negi to force the story to go for Yotsuba by either retconning other characters achievements or manipulating past events in current chapters so that they seem like they were always foreshadowing when nothing in the story even hinted at them being so.

Yotsuba quite literally won by doing nothing, the chapter itself literally tells you that all she needed to do was exist for Fuutarou to fall for her so she could win. So yes, people are made at her bs victory, can't fault them for not being ignorant to the clear manipulation.

[Lex79]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Chapter 71: Yes as you say he started to answer her and she stopped him, thing is that the only thing about that chapter that hints at Fuutarou at the tine possibly tuening her down was just the trope of the girl that wants to wait for the confession, NOT Fuutarou himself because he didn't say anything at all regarding that because she stopped him and the reason he didn't deny her is just because she told him not to say anything. Why would he as soon as she told him NOT to say anything just come out and say something that even hints at his decision?

Of course, now that we now the choice he made you can conveniently point to that as a sign, but at the time it could have gone either way because we didn't know anything about Fuutarous "true" feelings. Nino got done in by a trope, not because of Fuutarou's feelings.

Chapter 86: Once again, at that point we still didn't know anything about Fuutarous true feeling outside of him never wanting to give a proper reply, something that popped up many times along with him stating that he knows nothing about love (which we now know was clearly a lie). That but could have been anything from "but right now I can't give a proper answer so give me time" to "but you are not the only one whose feelings I have to take into account". You can add anything to that but and make it sound like anything you conveniently want (once again just like with Nino, Negi leaving things open so that he can just point and say "but look, this part though" and conveniently say anything he wants as an excuse for the lack of development for the chosen one).

Miku got done in by Negis manipulative writing, heck, you can tell that he hated her the most out of all the quints with how inconsistent he tried (<- emphasis on this word) to make her throughout the series.



Because the more you think about it the more those kinds of moments stick out where Negi either left things half done or forced a situation like the Bell Kisser just so that he could conveniently use them later on as an excuse for Yotsuba.

But the choice was already made and now he can just use them and claim that it was always there, the game was definitely rigged from the start.



Also a bait and switch.

At the time, we didn't know exactly what Fuutarou was going to say. We did know, however, that he wasn't giving them a positive answer. There is simply no sensible scenario in which Fuutarou was in love with either Miku or Nino and delayed his answer (the fact that they asked him to is not a valid reason, because the only reason they did so was to avoid a rejection, if Fuutarou was already willing to accept them they wouldn't had any complaints).
So, there was a reason why Fuutarou wasn't accepting them. Could have Fuutarou changed his mind? Yes, but Negi never showed that. If Negi wanted to have Miku or Nino as the winner, he should have then explained what reason prevented Fuutarou to accept them the first time, why nothing changed in the months after their confessions, and what make Fuutarou suddenly change his mind during the festival.

[Tenzen12]

Actually we don't know that he wasn't going to give them positive answer. We probably could assume he wouldn't say yes to Nino because their rocky relationship up to that point, but even that would be just guess with no insight what Fuutarou thought at that moment. In case of Miku there were no way tell either way.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

None of this is because of Itsuki (seriously where do you people keep getting that from? The only one that even makes a mention about that is the tiger, no else), It's about the obvious manipulation by Negi to force the story to go for Yotsuba by either retconning other characters achievements or manipulating past events in current chapters so that they seem like they were always foreshadowing when nothing in the story even hinted at them being so.

In first place how is Itsuki not winning supposed improve Negi questionable writting with Yotsuba?

That's like saying: :You guys complained about guns whole time and noone got shot, shouldn't you be more happy about people getting knifed to death instead?"

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Actually we don't know that he wasn't going to give them positive answer. We probably could assume he wouldn't say yes to Nino because their rocky relationship up to that point, but even that would be just guess with no insight what Fuutarou thought at that moment. In case of Miku there were no way tell either way.


In first place how is Itsuki not winning supposed improve Negi questionable writting with Yotsuba?

That's like saying: :You guys complained about guns whole time and noone got shot, shouldn't you be more happy about people getting knifed to death instead?"

It isn't, no one said that it would.

[wuhugm]

OMG... How indirect can you be?
And you forced her to confess first
Jerk

*sigh* Can we have competent male lead already?
At least someone that warranted the position to choose a girl
I've said it before but the only reason Fuutarou managed to conquer the quints is the miracle that no guys tried to pursue them (which is impossible)