Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Winterson]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's no such thing as an order that can't be canceled in regular military protocols.
As the highest ranked official Ledo would still have the authority to cancel any preexisting orders.

What do we know?! Even Chamber said that the link between him and the GA is lost. It could also be a lost command if you consider it. This is just a speculation though, As I was saying you can still transfer the authority of command like what Ledo did to Pinion before, but you're right. It would be ridiculus if such protocols were to be supressed with these specs. Anyhow, killing Hideaze is every soldiers ' and mech's top priority and possibly first command.

[Cadallin]

Originally Posted by Piesum

Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

Alright this is way out there in epileptic trees land, but, how do we know that isn't precisely what's happened to the Galactic Alliance as a whole?

Who runs the galactic alliance? What if its just AIs in some Asimov style Laws of Robotics situation? Their AIs can think for themselves and in a highly self serving fashion.

"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?

[LostSome]

I think the Ledo`s angst over the human squids was ok until Chamber`s speech and the arrival of the cult`s fleet...
I think I would have like it better if Ledo and Chamber had a longer conversation after Chamber gave its logic rather than watching Ledo having his identity crisis for that long.

Well, well... Pinion is becoming quite the little "revolutionnaire".
Our rebellious engineer is breaking all the old taboos, conventions and mindsets of Gargantia with a vengance.This is a good kick in the rusty way of life of the Gargantians and by the look of it many are ready to give those changes a chance. I agree, a place where you don`t have to fear pirates and squids is a dream worth chasing.
Surprisingly, Pinion has enough charisma and a way with words to motivate those around him and watching Flange losing his autority because it was hilarious.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Cadallin

"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?

However giving guidance to Ledo has always been one of Chamber's main functions.
As long as he doesn't cross the border between suggestion and command there is nothing to be surprised about.

Sure Chamber told Ledo what he should do according to his reasoning, but he did the same in the past, for example when he suggested to subdue the Gargantians.

There is still no evidence that Chamber is defying or will defy Ledo's orders.

[Key Board]

It seems to me that the present hideauze is so far mutated from humanity that they have lost the ability to communicate with humans

It would be like a human talking to a an Dolphin or a Cuttlefish. (..which are pretty darn smart, I might add)

no communication -> no negotiation -> continued conflict

[chaos_animagic]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It seems to me that the present hideauze is so far mutated from humanity that they have lost the ability to communicate with humans

It would be like a human talking to a an Dolphin or a Cuttlefish. (..which are pretty darn smart, I might add)

no communication -> no negotiation -> continued conflict

Tho... they DO have some way to communicate with some animals.

I believe there are irl devices and researches that allowed certain translation of Dogs and Dolphin's voice. And the use of those as samples to send it back at Dogs and Dolphins.
(well... based on popular Dog Training, Dogs can understand basic Human language)

Also goes back to my saying of Chamber... if he have the technology to instantly translate "lost human language" into their current language, he can too learn and do so with other species language. It is just they don't want to.

[takai]

Whew, this show delivers one surprise after another. But these last few episodes have felt so different than the first 7 or so episodes. Looking forward to more.

[FateAnomaly]

At this point the hideauze would no longer accept a peace treaty even if they used to be peaceful. The hideauze are more animalistic now and after being consistently being attacked by humans for so long, their first instinct will be to attack humans on sight. It seems that combat wise they have the upper hand. They probably could not create worm holes though so defensively human have an advantage.

[aohige]

I really liked how Chaimber laid down the much needed logic smack down.
These morons (and by that I mean pretty much the entire cast lol) very much needed it.

[Principalities]

Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Principalities

Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

He basically went advertising all the loot they found, which was basically being ASKED to be attacked by pirates. That's beyond stupid, whether you think you can win or not.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah, people are selfish all the time, but people that have no shame in showing their selfishness, boast their achievements and arrogantly tell people to steer clear or they'll get a beating?

Well if that ain't a douchebag, what else is?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Principalities

Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

No, I think normal would be "I'll keep half of this all to myself, and I'll share the other half with other fleets... though I will expect some profit or useful goods for it, of course!"

But Pinion just wants to hoard it all, and share none of it. I honestly think that's unusually selfish, beyond what your normal person would be.

I don't think that Pinion is an entirely bad guy - I think at some level, he cares at least a little bit about Ledo - But his greed truly is out of control. If Pinion becomes a tragic figure, his greed will be the classic "fatal flaw" that does him in.

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I think normal would be "I'll keep half of this all to myself, and I'll share the other half with other fleets... though I will expect some profit or useful goods for it, of course!"

But Pinion just wants to hoard it all, and share none of it. I honestly think that's unusually selfish, beyond what your normal person would be.

I don't think that Pinion is an entirely bad guy - I think at some level, he cares at least a little bit about Ledo - But his greed truly is out of control. If Pinion becomes a tragic figure, his greed will be the classic "fatal flaw" that does him in.

If I was a harsh writer, I'd let innocents suffer the consequences of Pinion's poor decisions then have him live through it. That would best illustrate how injustice happens in the real world. Good men (Flange?) fail to counter bad choices then society suffers. Whether its Pinion hoarding technology and riding high ... or an auditor turning a blind eye to siphoning of public funds ... the negatives fall someplace but not necessarily direct to those who cause it ... thus multiplying the tragedy.

[Guido]

From the end of the episode until this show to end, things are looking bleak and uncertain for Ledo and even to those whose existence have had an impact upon them.

What I can make most of Chambers' statements to Ledo is that human beings actually are in need to overcome themselves and to demand more of their own selves. War is not about making friends but fighting in any context whether for resources, for politics, for religion, etc. in order to exert that any ways, ideas, standards, and knowledge hold by those who win eventually decide the course of upcoming times to follow. That's my gist.

Spoiler:

What I understood is that Hideauze and Human separated at a point and chose to walk different paths away from each other to ensure their species's respective survival on their own terms.

Collision and fighting between the two species was an inevitable outcome.

Due to their frail condition in space, humans had no other choice but relying on the quest to gain or improve their knowledge in order to develop more complex civilizations in order to survive.

For Hideauze to gain more knowledge became no longer important once getting used to their new bodies and forms, realizing their newfound strength and enhanced capabilities that made them able to survive in the vacuum of space on their own.
They're more than satisfied to be able to live a simple lifecycle within small communities.

[aohige]

Hmm, I think it's a lot simpler "they ain't no humans no more bro".

I mean, saying those space-squids are "BUT THEY ARE HUMANS I CAN'T FIGHT THEM" is like saying you can't kill zombies because they used to be human. LOL
Of course, I understand Ledo's problem isn't really the fact they are humans (he had no problem evaporating pirates) but the fact his life was a lie.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by aohige

Hmm, I think it's a lot simpler "they ain't no humans no more bro".

I mean, saying those space-squids are "BUT THEY ARE HUMANS I CAN'T FIGHT THEM" is like saying you can't kill zombies because they used to be human. LOL
Of course, I understand Ledo's problem isn't really the fact they are humans (he had no problem evaporating pirates) but the fact his life was a lie.

But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran,

Spoiler for Franken Fran specific:

where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

[Winterson]

Hideazeu are aliens to humans. They originated from human race but had fulfilled real evolution.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Solace

But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

Spoiler for Franken Fran specific:

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran, where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

A moderator is spoiling another manga without spoilers? I'm in shock! Jokes aside, from the action of the people of Gargantia in episode 9, it seems the Hideauze are easily provoked, even the ones on earth--they could attack the fleet if they knew humans were there apparently. They really pose a real danger to humanity.

That aside, since their intelligence has regressed, they are little more than animals. Their relationship with humans would be similar to the one between humans with apes. Humans shouldn't attack them without cause, but if there is one, like rediscovering technology that could benefit the race, they should.

Besides that, the reaction of the Gargantians back in the main fleet revulsed me. They had no problem with hunting animals for food. Yet, when other people are killing animals they regard as bad omen, they condemned the act and treat it as though it was pure stupidity--even though the race could have been benefited from the action. The Gargantians were hypocrites. What's even more stupid was that they were doing this without even knowing the squids' ancestors were human.

Pinion's a scumbag. I cannot see why the other captains even obeys him.I haven't seen someone as foolish as him in quite a while. As if you would try and inform people what kind of treasure you have gotten. He's asking to be attacked. I can see why he don't want to share lost technology with others. At least very least though, he should have kept it a secret amongst his own group. Other than that, as if you would let pirates, PIRATES join your 'fleet'. It was as if criminals could be trusted. They would have stabbed his back once an opportunity reveals itself and run of with the lost technology.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Solace

But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

Spoiler for Franken Fran specific:

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran, where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

Ehh. It depends on the situation. If the apparent zombie outbreak was causing the zombies to roam around, attacking, killing, and eating the people, then it's fully justified to treat them as enemies. And likewise, the Hideauze are an actual enemy threat locked in a conflict for survival with humanity in space. They've become something entirely different from humans, no communication, just survival of the fittest.

If someone keeps going "oh noes poor misunderstood creatures" as the zombies swarm the mall munching on his fellow people, then sorry man, he fully deserve to be eaten.

I'm with Chamber on this issue.