Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[DonQuigleone]

I agree, though it may difficult to incorporate parts of the concert scene with a combined Music/ launch combo (that was so awesome in Deculture)

On another note entirely, anyone have any idea who subbing this other than infinite zero? and possibly Shinsen? Macross F seems to be getting far less love than Geass which has GG, Eclipse and Conclave-Mendoi on it

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I agree, though it may difficult to incorporate parts of the concert scene with a combined Music/ launch combo (that was so awesome in Deculture)

On another note entirely, anyone have any idea who subbing this other than infinite zero? and possibly Shinsen? Macross F seems to be getting far less love than Geass which has GG, Eclipse and Conclave-Mendoi on it

you don't need more then one subbing group to show how popular this series is.

the only reason it taking a little longer for the first episode to be subbed was the fact that the decultured version was out and pretty much burned out everyone for the 2nd episodes.

trust me when the 2nde ep comes out we will all be swarming over it. i think shinsen might get into this, they do like their mecha.

[ahmad]

Hey! Few days ago I was asking you guys what macross. is about etc. Well I finally watched the first series and i love it. Just now i watched Frontier ep 1 and it feels like this is not only gonna be the best show for this season but one of my all time favs as well.
Even though it does not require you to have watched the previous macross series, I think it can be considered a sequel to the original series.
Anyways im really happy and excited right now =D Macross ftw!

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by ahmad

Hey! Few days ago I was asking you guys what macross. is about etc. Well I finally watched the first series and i love it. Just now i watched Frontier ep 1 and it feels like this is not only gonna be the best show for this season but one of my all time favs as well.
Even though it does not require you to have watched the previous macross series, I think it can be considered a sequel to the original series.
Anyways im really happy and excited right now =D Macross ftw!

hmm...a sequel......perhaps.

Best thing i like about Macross is the heritage.

no matter which macross series you watch, you can always trace the background, the mecha's everything to the original or to a previous series.

i think too many animes have too many "sequels"

it's best to have a new story, new background and new characters.

Gundam has the right idea, yet i think they tend to go overboard with the whole new universe thing.

which is one of my grips, as the technology they use in each series, i just don't understand it. Because they seem to appear out of no where, you just can't backtrack their lineage, the same way you can do with Macross.

[wingzero_2000]

the different Macross storylines are very different from each other, although they do always references the original Macross/Robotech artifacts, for example, Macross Plus, Macross Zero, Macross 2, 7, are all unrelated storylines, yet connected somehow by the main theme,

Gundam storylines on the other hand, are just rehashed over and over, as long as there are some mobile suits that resembles Gundam in the series, you can call it "Gundam <substitute phrase here>", or whatever.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

it's best to have a new story, new background and new characters.

Gundam has the right idea, yet i think they tend to go overboard with the whole new universe thing.

which is one of my grips, as the technology they use in each series, i just don't understand it. Because they seem to appear out of no where, you just can't backtrack their lineage, the same way you can do with Macross.

No. You think that way because the Gundam franchise is signficantly larger than Macross's and branches off multiple directions. If you look solely at the Universal Century Gundams (comprised of 4 TV series, 2 or 3 feature movies--depending on if you count G-Saviour, and 5, soon to be 6 OVA series, which is STILL a larger and thus more significant body of work than what Macross has to offer), you can do exactly that. Technology evolves for each series in a logical manner, base on their location in the overall timeline. Different characters, different themes, but same overall storyline and same history. So you qualm just doesn't apply here.

As for the alternate universes in Gundam, they are meant to be ALTERNATE... They are NOT targeted towards the same audiences and as such their creators don't generally care about existing Gundam fans (though they do try to put one or two homages here or there). That's why there is absolutely no continuity needed between different Gundam universes.

Macross hasn't gotten to the stage where it NEEDS the different universes. There's no need or expectations for it to reach completely new audiences without catering to existing fans, unlike Gundam. In another words, the Gundam name is significant and recognizable enough such that it WILL sell to pretty much anybody, while Macross NEEDS its fans to support it. That's why it can't just abandon its timeline that easily.

Originally Posted by wingzero_2000

the different Macross storylines are very different from each other, although they do always references the original Macross/Robotech artifacts, for example, Macross Plus, Macross Zero, Macross 2, 7, are all unrelated storylines, yet connected somehow by the main theme,

Gundam storylines on the other hand, are just rehashed over and over, as long as there are some mobile suits that resembles Gundam in the series, you can call it "Gundam <substitute phrase here>", or whatever.

Again, you can't compare Macross with Gundam this way. Macross only has TWO completed TV series and one currently in the air, and Frontier is already "rehashing" many of the ideas of the previous shows. Gundam has ELEVEN shows ranging from 39 to 51 episodes. There's really only so much variations of the same earth vs. space formula that you can use, which leads to viewer fatigue if you're crazy enough (like me) to watch through all of them. Not to mention there ARE some VERY unique Gundam TV series out, such as G, X, Turn A and 00 that completely stray from the typical formulas. Thus far, I'd say the original SDF and 7 have very different storylines and Frontier is a combination of the themes from the two of them so far, with a sprinkle of contemporary anime trends.

The other works, the movies & OVAs, are unique in both franchises. 2, Plus, Dynamite 7 and Zero have drastically different storylines, but so do 0080, 0083, 08th MS Team, MS IGLOO, etc.

[Onizuka-GTO]

dammn gundam fanboys......

*spray the topic with gudamcide*

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

dammn gundam fanboys......

*spray the topic with gudamcide*

Bah. Macross > Gundam in many ways, just not the way you stated. So please try again.

[tetsuo69]

i also agreed macross-->Gundam xD ^^

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

No. You think that way because the Gundam franchise is signficantly larger than Macross's and branches off multiple directions. If you look solely at the Universal Century Gundams (comprised of 4 TV series, 2 or 3 feature movies--depending on if you count G-Saviour, and 5, soon to be 6 OVA series, which is STILL a larger and thus more significant body of work than what Macross has to offer), you can do exactly that. Technology evolves for each series in a logical manner, base on their location in the overall timeline. Different characters, different themes, but same overall storyline and same history. So you qualm just doesn't apply here.

That's only partially the reason. While most of the longer Gundam shows share very familiar structures and themes, the Macross ones have historically been totally different from one another. So far only Macross Frontier bears any similarity to any of the previous ones; and even in this case, most of these similarities are played up as homages rather than being particularly substantiative.

Moreover, Macross is much more of an auteur work firmly in the control of Kawamori - perhaps moreso than any other franchise in anime. While there are advantages to both this approach and a more diverse creative staff, it makes it a lot easier to create a sense of lineage even when exploring totally different ideas and themes.

Originally Posted by brightman

Macross hasn't gotten to the stage where it NEEDS the different universes. There's no need or expectations for it to reach completely new audiences without catering to existing fans, unlike Gundam. In another words, the Gundam name is significant and recognizable enough such that it WILL sell to pretty much anybody, while Macross NEEDS its fans to support it. That's why it can't just abandon its timeline that easily.

This argument seems reasonable, but I don't know if the facts support it. If all of the Macross shows were meant to cater to the same audience, then why is it that they're all so very different from one another. Moreover, Macross Plus wasn't even originally envisioned as a Macross work to begin with.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's only partially the reason. While most of the longer Gundam shows share very familiar structures and themes, the Macross ones have historically been totally different from one another. So far only Macross Frontier bears any similarity to any of the previous ones; and even in this case, most of these similarities are played up as homages rather than being particularly substantiative.

Most of the longer Gundam shows. As I have already stated, there are only two long completed Macross shows, both of which are very different, yes, but the third one already seems similar.

This argument seems reasonable, but I don't know if the facts support it. If all of the Macross shows were meant to cater to the same audience, then why is it that they're all so very different from one another. Moreover, Macross Plus wasn't even originally envisioned as a Macross work to begin with.

Because a new and fresh approach to a familiar setting is what fans tend to want, not the same series over and over again.

[DonQuigleone]

My main gripe with Gundam series is that I don't like the characters as much,they don't tend to have the same earthy concerns that Macross protagonists have (do you ever see a gundam pilot spend more time pondering their love life over stopping the war?).

I do think Gundam has cooler Mechs though, most Valkyries look very similiar to each other. Gundam 00 had awesome Mechs, but I never liked any of the pilots (except Lockon, he was cool, though no Maximillian Jenius).

[brightman]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

My main gripe with Gundam series is that I don't like the characters as much,they don't tend to have the same earthy concerns that Macross protagonists have (do you ever see a gundam pilot spend more time pondering their love life over stopping the war?).

But that's what people in a war do... When people are fighting a war, they care about life and death, not some love triangle and kiddie crushes.

But you do have a point, Macross was one of the pioneers of the space opera genre for mecha anime, so it does tend to appeal to certain viewers more than hard war shows. After all, Macross emphasizes the characters, drama and relationships, Gundam emphasizes war tragedies and mecha. Whether you like one or the other depends on what you look for in a TV show.

[Cadorna]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I do think Gundam has cooler Mechs though, most Valkyries look very similiar to each other. Gundam 00 had awesome Mechs, but I never liked any of the pilots (except Lockon, he was cool, though no Maximillian Jenius).

Well , most plane in the world look similar in reality

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

Most of the longer Gundam shows. As I have already stated, there are only two long completed Macross shows, both of which are very different, yes, but the third one already seems similar.

But note that in the first fifteen years of the Gundam franchise, the only show that deviated to any great degree from the standard formula was 0800, and that they didn't move to something completely new until Victory flopped. Macross Frontier may use some of the same cues as SDF Macross (there's almost no similarity with Macross 7 except for the colony fleet), but aside from those cues, there isn't all that much that is the same. While it's certainly possible that it may play out the same way as a previous Macross show, Frontier's so character-driven that it's premature to state that with any degree of certainty.

Originally Posted by brightman

Because a new and fresh approach to a familiar setting is what fans tend to want, not the same series over and over again.

A fresh approach is one thing, but what's been historically done is that the Macross shows have been completely different from one another.

Originally Posted by brightman

But that's what people in a war do... When people are fighting a war, they care about life and death, not some love triangle and kiddie crushes.

Untrue. While war can dominate daily life, the other human concerns don't go away at all. And in many ways, war accentuates the urgency of some of these other concerns.

Originally Posted by brightman

But you do have a point, Macross was one of the pioneers of the space opera genre for mecha anime, so it does tend to appeal to certain viewers more than hard war shows. After all, Macross emphasizes the characters, drama and relationships, Gundam emphasizes war tragedies and mecha. Whether you like one or the other depends on what you look for in a TV show.

You're correct in most respects, but I don't think that it's accurate to call Gundam (or just about any other mecha show for that matter) a "hard war show".

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by brightman

But that's what people in a war do... When people are fighting a war, they care about life and death, not some love triangle and kiddie crushes.

I'm not sure if it's more realistic or not, however fanatics trying to stop war don't make for sympathetic characters, which is the biggest problem with gundam 00. I didn't like Setsuna, Tieria or Hallelujah cause they were somewhat like that, and flat.

Anyway we left realism far behind when we introduced Mecha (who are invariably all prototypes :P) into the equation.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But note that in the first fifteen years of the Gundam franchise, the only show that deviated to any great degree from the standard formula was 0800, and that they didn't move to something completely new until Victory flopped. Macross Frontier may use some of the same cues as SDF Macross (there's almost no similarity with Macross 7 except for the colony fleet), but aside from those cues, there isn't all that much that is the same. While it's certainly possible that it may play out the same way as a previous Macross show, Frontier's so character-driven that it's premature to state that with any degree of certainty.

A fresh approach is one thing, but what's been historically done is that the Macross shows have been completely different from one another.

Completely different in story structure, but in theme and subject matter? I have to say you're overstating the differences in the Macross franchise. The same emphasis on romance, relationships and music are all common, just presented differently. Its not like they are changing the show from one about aliens to one about mountain dwarves. IMO the stated differences are no different than those between the newer Gundam shows (I will agree that Tomino's shows tend to be fairly similar in nature), with perhaps the exception of Macross Zero.

And 0083, IMO, is as different from the "standard formula" as the Macross shows are from each other. Its not about tragedy of war, nor does it have any of the themes common to Tomino's shows.

Untrue. While war can dominate daily life, the other human concerns don't go away at all. And in many ways, war accentuates the urgency of some of these other concerns.

Perhaps I did misstate that a bit. I meant to refer to the audiences. Traditionally fans of war movies are not fans of romances and vice versa. Macross is more on the trendy side of things in that regard in order to appeal to a casual audience.

You're correct in most respects, but I don't think that it's accurate to call Gundam (or just about any other mecha show for that matter) a "hard war show".

Yeah, I agree... I was referring more to its emphasis on war and not its similarities to "real" war shows.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I'm not sure if it's more realistic or not, however fanatics trying to stop war don't make for sympathetic characters, which is the biggest problem with gundam 00. I didn't like Setsuna, Tieria or Hallelujah cause they were somewhat like that, and flat.

IMO that's more of a problem with the script than with the character concepts themselves. As I've said in the Gundam forum, Yousuke Kuroda seems to have an uncanny knack for making audiences indifferent to its characters.

But still, that's Gundam 00, not Gundam in general.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

Completely different in story structure, but in theme and subject matter? I have to say you're overstating the differences in the Macross franchise. The same emphasis on romance, relationships and music are all common, just presented differently. Its not like they are changing the show from one about aliens to one about mountain dwarves. IMO the stated differences are no different than those between the newer Gundam shows (I will agree that Tomino's shows tend to be fairly similar in nature), with perhaps the exception of Macross Zero.

I find that commonalities of broad themes like romance and relationships are vague enough that they're not particularly significant unless they're either tackled from the same angle or there are other similarities. In this regard, the Macross shows really are completely different.

Originally Posted by brightman

And 0083, IMO, is as different from the "standard formula" as the Macross shows are from each other. Its not about tragedy of war, nor does it have any of the themes common to Tomino's shows.

That's arguable, but in terms of story structure, it's very true to its roots.

Originally Posted by brightman

Perhaps I did misstate that a bit. I meant to refer to the audiences. Traditionally fans of war movies are not fans of romances and vice versa. Macross is more on the trendy side of things in that regard in order to appeal to a casual audience.

You may be surprised: many of the better war films and novels out there also have love stories. A lot of authors use them as a balance for the more destructive elements. Moreover, even in war stories with no romance of note, depicting characters in events that have little to do with the war itself goes a long way in making them more interesting.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by brightman

Perhaps I did misstate that a bit. I meant to refer to the audiences. Traditionally fans of war movies are not fans of romances and vice versa. Macross is more on the trendy side of things in that regard in order to appeal to a casual audience.

You have a point here, the only war movie with substantial romance I've seen, Pearl Harbour, was god awful. That said I think that Macross, and Gundam to a lesser extent, are only superficially war stories and are really more like space operas (a la Star Wars).

Originally Posted by brightman

IMO that's more of a problem with the script than with the character concepts themselves. As I've said in the Gundam forum, Yousuke Kuroda seems to have an uncanny knack for making audiences indifferent to its characters.

But still, that's Gundam 00, not Gundam in general.

It could be the script that could be the problem I suppose, I did sympathise more with SEED's characters, but not nearly as much as Macross's (or Gurren Lagann, which is all about it's characters). You can't really compensate for a lack of good characters in a mech show. The pilot often makes the mecha cool, not the other way round. So a valk is always gonna be cool when by piloted by the likes of Maximillian Jenius or Tingman Mikhail, while Kira just makes me wanna hurl.

I think it's quite noteable that Geass is managing to pull off what Gundam didn't with regards to characters (especially with Kira-clone Suzaku, we all now hate him enough to be interested in what happens to him)

[Westlo]

Waiting on Klein Klan to debut