Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[Hollowgolem]

I'm glad I came to this thread on the day of Thanksgiving in America.

Just like in real life, I get to witness a dysfunctional but beloved family goofing around.

Also, I hope all that Brera/Ranka stuff is just supposed to be about the acquisition of the sibling relationship of which they were both robbed. Otherwise, squick.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by raile

All I did was shatter LMK's fervent illusions that not a lot of fans support any incestuous subtext between Ranka and Brera, and that it's only looked at with platonic family love.

Is that so wrong?

(No, not to me.)

Even that seems to be a pretty unsafe conclusion. Surely, there are some people out there who are Ranka/Brera fans. But none of us know if it's a lot or a few.

Stating unsupportable assumptions is not the way to go here...fighting fire with fire doesn't work.

[darkplataform]

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

Also,

http://p-bandai.jp/fashion-net/chara...em-1000014063/

[BetoJR]

Wow. What are those other things, besides the earring?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

An interesting revelation from one of Yoshino's interviews (I can't quite remember which one - might be the one in the Complete Book, or perhaps the one in the fanbook, as those are the two I've skimmed recently...), however, reveals that Kawamori might be the one that everyone has to rein in. IIRC (don't quote me on this yet!), the advice/encouragement that Ohnogi apparently gave to Yoshino upon the latter's induction into Macross at the planning stage of Frontier was something like 'good luck reining Kawamori in'!

So that's where the Ohnogi connection came from!

If we take Kawamori's word, then the second movie is closer to his original scenario? So yeah, Yoshino did reign in a lot.

Originally Posted by darkplataform

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

Also,

http://p-bandai.jp/fashion-net/chara...em-1000014063/

Pretty! And probably expensive.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by darkplataform

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

What exactly is a "loop-side"?

[darkplataform]

@magnusk: i really should double-check online translators, uh?

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by darkplataform

@magnusk: i really should double-check online translators, uh?

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

Well, if you say "bias" in the term of "will lose in the romance", they had a bias against her. If you say "bias" meaning "got a super-improvement over her series self, to the point that she was completely without any sorts of personality flaws", that's also true.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

I'm glad I came to this thread on the day of Thanksgiving in America.

Just like in real life, I get to witness a dysfunctional but beloved family goofing around.

BTW, that really warmed my heart. Thanks! I, too, am quite happy with our forum community and the people who make it up.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by darkplataform

@magnusk: i really should double-check online translators, uh?

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

I for one, never understood how come someone earnestly believed Ranka was going to officially 'win' the triangle since the beginning. I took a look a characters design and knew the pink haired one was going to get "chosen". This isn't the same as liking Ranka/Alto (I admit I've enjoyed the pairing potential a lot in movieverse), I can understand how someone would ship the pairing (or any pairing for that matter).

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by raile

All I did was shatter LMK's fervent illusions that not a lot of fans support any incestuous subtext between Ranka and Brera, and that it's only looked at with platonic family love.

Shatter? Hardly.

I see more fanarts for Brera/Sheryl than Brera/Ranka that are otherwise romantic or even go to so far as sexual. Most people just like Brera and Ranka together because siblings are usually very happy (unless they have a bad relationship with each other).

Originally Posted by vivitoru

But when doujin circles aren't drawing Alto/Ranka either because the couple isn't that appealing to them or they don't think it'll sell enough, and yet they take the time to draw a Brera/Ranka anthology (or yet another Brera/Ranka doujin), I think there is some truth in that statement.

Actually, it's more about the money. And unless you have proof, I don't think Alto/Ranka fans drew that Brera/Ranka anthology. That's something that is unproven. I've kept up with all the Alto/Ranka circles or artists and haven't seen any of them show interest in the anthology (nor participate in it).

Originally Posted by darkplataform

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

It is true. It is like saying she's the main character but playings a supporting role instead. That is what Ranka is in the movies. She has little scenes where she actually is a character (gives background history or shows growth) and barely is allowed to play the heroine. Meanwhile, Sheryl steals the spotlight and becomes the "messiah." That being said, both girls are supposed to be the main characters (along with Alto) but one overshadowing the other was obvious from the get-go which is why I'm disgusted with the movies. Even Alto was overshadowed by Sheryl.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, if you say "bias" in the term of "will lose in the romance", they had a bias against her. If you say "bias" meaning "got a super-improvement over her series self, to the point that she was completely without any sorts of personality flaws", that's also true.

You fail to even prove a point when I'm not only talking about romance but character in general.

She's a strong character in the movies but you don't get to see that growth much due to her small screen time. They should've given her more scenes to show that growth they gave her. Sure, they gave her some scenes, but as usual in the movies, Sheryl was shown the most and dominated the screen, story, and plot, even the ending (not to mention the Nyan Nyan Final Attack and Sayonara no Tsubasa had more vocals by May'n than Nakajima as proof).

Really now... no proof? I think not.

It was obvious point blank from the beginning 30mins of the 1st movie that Sheryl was going to be the point of interest. Hell, she even arrives at a scene that was just Alto and Ranka (GRIFFITH PARK).

The roles went like such:
Alto = main character
Sheryl = main character
Ranka = main character but plays supporting role

Honestly, it was obvious, even to those who weren't interested in the romance section. Just look at how many reviews there are for both movies. They stated it too.

Originally Posted by Thess

I for one, never understood how come someone earnestly believed Ranka was going to officially 'win' the triangle since the beginning. I took a look a characters design and knew the pink haired one was going to get "chosen". This isn't the same as liking Ranka/Alto (I admit I've enjoyed the pairing potential a lot in movieverse), I can understand how someone would ship the pairing (or any pairing for that matter).

First, all you did was look at a character and decide they were going to win?

Now I understand why you ship the two girls over any with Alto. It's not about their personality, it's about sexuality.

I looked at Ranka's design, then I watched her, I watched the first episode before deciding who I'd support to the end. After her first impression with Alto, I was hooked on her because her personality was open and embracing, something I like in characters. So I picked her.

It's not about "design" but rather "personality" that I looked at.

And whether or not Ranka was going to "win," I didn't really follow that "watch weekly" thing if you recall. I watched all the episodes in one lump. And I still saw Alto and Ranka as a viable pairing in the end. From the way they communicated in the scenes they did get and to the way Alto was happy and content with her over others, really showed how close net they were. I honestly enjoyed all the good and bad times and cared less that she was always the damsel in distress because at least she was a better one than past characters (she didn't get killed or injured). I also enjoyed the cute moments and implied romantic moments, especially the date in the movie. But also, most of all, I enjoyed her personality over any character in the show. She has a way to show up on screen (especially in the early episodes) and screw up to make you laugh. Sometimes, I think she even does it on purpose. There are endearing things about her personality that people often fail to see, but most of all, her smile has a tendency to make you forget why you were mad at all in the first place.

And that's why I picked her as the love triangle winner.

Why'd you pick Sheryl? Because you thought she looked good from the designs? Because you overlooked she had a harsh attitude and was as closed off as a girl's locked diary? Because you thought she was hot?

That's the most shallow way to pick a character.

I usually watch at least three episodes before picking a character and I watch their personalities. You state you did not do this. Therefore, a shallow decision was made.

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

First, all you did was look at a character and decide they were going to win?

It's just how anime rolls, you pretty much can tell this things at first glance, if they both looked the same age or "legal" if you prefer, it would have been harder.

Now I understand why you ship the two girls over any with Alto. It's not about their personality, it's about sexuality.


I looked at Ranka's design, then I watched her, I watched the first episode before deciding who I'd support to the end. After her first impression with Alto, I was hooked on her because her personality was open and embracing, something I like in characters. So I picked her.

Since the damn first episode? really? you decided, since episode one, who to support to the bloody end? I will not talk about your personal tastes because Ranka does gives a really good first impression but...

It's not about "design" but rather "personality" that I looked at.

And whether or not Ranka was going to "win," I didn't really follow that "watch weekly" thing if you recall. I watched all the episodes in one lump. And I still saw Alto and Ranka as a viable pairing in the end. From the way they communicated in the scenes they did get and to the way Alto was happy and content with her over others, really showed how close net they were. I honestly enjoyed all the good and bad times and cared less that she was always the damsel in distress because at least she was a better one than past characters (she didn't get killed or injured). I also enjoyed the cute moments and implied romantic moments, especially the date in the movie. But also, most of all, I enjoyed her personality over any character in the show. She has a way to show up on screen (especially in the early episodes) and screw up to make you laugh. Sometimes, I think she even does it on purpose. There are endearing things about her personality that people often fail to see, but most of all, her smile has a tendency to make you forget why you were mad at all in the first place.

Now she didn't get hurt but other people DID, and because they were protecting her, some even DIED, also series Ranka never tryed to help herself when in danger no matter how pointless or sucessful her attemps could be, she only screamed for help (movieRanka actually tries to rescue herself or help); Whenever Ranka screwed up i felt embarassed, it really was dumb.

And that's why I picked her as the love triangle winner.

And then proceded to ignore that your view was fanon.

Why'd you pick Sheryl? Because you thought she looked good from the designs? Because you overlooked she had a harsh attitude and was as closed off as a girl's locked diary? Because you thought she was hot?

That's the most shallow way to pick a character.

Now I picked Sheryl because she didn't want to be a damsel in distress, she wanted to keep herself strong and her motto was to do whatever was in her hands to help; I found that pretty damn impresive because that doesn't happen a lot in anime, most girls that say that tend to be a damsel in distress to the very end but sheryl actually lived to that words ,I liked Sheryl since episode 7 but after Galia 4, She became my absolute favorite character.

I don't think my reasons are shallow.

Also you probably want to check what character development is.

I usually watch at least three episodes before picking a character and I watch their personalities. You state you did not do this. Therefore, a shallow decision was made.

But just 7 paragraphs above you said that you picked since the first episode, I did wait a lot and I watched it weekly.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by teelatsuki

It's just how anime rolls, you pretty much can tell this things at first glance, if they both looked the same age or "legal" if you prefer, it would have been harder.

First, wasn't talking to you, see that the quotes were for Thess, not you; so honestly, I could care less.

Spoiler for *sigh*:

Since the damn first episode? really? you decided, since episode one, who to support to the bloody end? I will not talk about your personal tastes because Ranka does gives a really good first impression but...

Yes. But that was after I'd really gotten to see Ranka talk. The first ten or so minutes, she said hardly anything and came off as a quiet, non-sociable character like Rei from Neon Gensis Evangelion. Then she made this large impression (by far the most substantial one in the series) by inviting Alto into her life just because he helped her slightly. That "come by Nyan-Nyan and ask for me sometime" was her biggest impression on him and intrigued him.

That was when I picked to support Ranka.

Unlike Thess, who picked Sheryl based on her design (ie: her sexuality or build).

Now she didn't get hurt but other people DID, and because they were protecting her, some even DIED, also series Ranka never tryed to help herself when in danger no matter how pointless or sucessful her attemps could be, she only screamed for help (movieRanka actually tries to rescue herself or help); Whenever Ranka screwed up i felt embarassed, it really was dumb.

Why you choose to single that out of all the other things I said just proves how little you read of it. The point I was trying to make with the "didn't get hurt" was that most damsel in distresses carry out their duty and get themselves (along with everyone else) killed. Ranka didn't get herself killed. And up until E20-21, E24-25, Ranka never got anyone killed. She was not responsible for E14 at all, since no one aboard Frontier was aware Ranka had been kidnapped until Alto told them. So therefore, no one was risking their life beforehand besides Alto, Michael, and Sheryl. And she didn't sing, so the Vajra weren't influenced by her song (I don't count the end because there was no proof her song did anything due to Brera breaking in suddenly).

And then proceded to ignore that your view was fanon.

It isn't fanon. The fact remains that there are romantic or insinuating moments for Alto/Ranka, meaning that Kawamori is prepared for you to ship either way, that is what shipping is. It's not fanon if there is evidence to prove the relationship could've gone somewhere.

That's like saying Hikaru/Minmei is fanon although there were date scenes, kisses, and a fake wedding to prove that Kawamori was willing to ship that way but preferred the other over it. Doesn't make it fanon. It just makes it a path in their (Alto and Hikaru) romantic lives.

The only way it would be fanon was if there was no real support for Alto/Ranka. Are there pictures? Yes. Are there scenes with them together? Yes. Are there kiss scenes? One, so yes. Is there blushing in the scenes? Yes. Is there a rejection? Yes.

So you see, it's not fanon. It is supported but not preferred.

And it is also an official pairing if you look at the fact a triangle in Macross has to create two official pairings: Alto/Sheryl and Alto/Ranka, otherwise the word "triangle" would have no meaning.

Now I picked Sheryl because she didn't want to be a damsel in distress, she wanted to keep herself strong and her motto was to do whatever was in her hands to help; I found that pretty damn impresive because that doesn't happen a lot in anime, most girls that say that tend to be a damsel in distress to the very end but sheryl actually lived to that words ,I liked Sheryl since episode 7 but after Galia 4, She became my absolute favorite character.

That's your choice.

I disliked the fact that she wasn't realistic. All the things you put above prove my point with how unrealistic she is. I choose to support characters who are human. Sheryl being this "goddess," "messiah," and "saint" she's made out to be just proves my point. That's not the kind of girl I'd support in the love triangle.

I supported Misa more than I ever did her. And I supported Minmei. But most of all, I supported characters who came off as realistic. I didn't quite support Basara because his going onto the battlefield and never once being killed wasn't realistic, and he had little to no character growth; so I never supported him. But, Mylene, I supported a bit, because she had potential to grow, but I never saw much in her.

Sheryl just started out as a rude person and grew into an unrealistic saint. No girl is that perfect. If you choose to support a character that's that unrealistic, then you have self-esteem issues. You're viewing the character as someone you aspire to be. You're no different than Ranka.

I don't think my reasons are shallow.

They are.

Also you probably want to check what character development is.

Once again, Thess proclaimed to have picked Sheryl based on her body structure (which is what "design" means). This argument had nothing to do with "character development" other than my saying why I picked Ranka: for her personality.

But just 7 paragraphs above you said that you picked since the first episode, I did wait a lot and I watched it weekly.

I said usually, which means on other anime.

I usually watch three episodes before picking (like with SDF) a character to support.

I waited at least half the series of SDF before I picked Misa to support romantically and Minmei as a standalone. I waited one episode to support Basara (cause I knew immediately who she'd pick inwardly). I had trouble deciding with Zero. But I'd already picked Isamu as my favorite character even if he would've lost (yahoo!!!). Hell, I supported Focker. (Why'd you die, Roy!? *cries*)

I don't normally enter a series and become so moved by a character's first impression like I did Ranka. Hell, even female characters I used to like don't compare to her Nyan-Nyan dance and his reaction. I was hooked on her personality and actions right from the get-go. She's just a normal teenager.

[raile]

Wow, self-esteem issues..?

This coming from a teenager throwing a tantrum just because the FICTIONAL underdog character she supported didn't win the guy in the end.

My mind is blown.

And LMK, as Tak stated time and again. THIS is a PUBLIC FORUM. Anyone can reply or call out on your tantrum posts.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by raile

Wow, self-esteem issues..?

This coming from a teenager throwing a tantrum just because the FICTIONAL underdog character she supported didn't win the guy in the end.

My mind is blown.

Just proves I have no problems stating I'm human, unlike Sheryl fans. I can easily state "yes, I have problems, I have issues." But I'm not gonna stand here and say "I'm perfect and that's how you should always remember me" like Sheryl.

I am a Ranka fan and proud to say "I'm human, deal with it. I make mistakes and learn from them. It doesn't all happen overnight or in a year, but gradually. So don't judge what you see today because tomorrow might be when I shine."

[raile]

LMK.

We all know you HATE Sheryl and you're still sore and can't let go or accept the fact that your princess didn't win the triangle.

But if you're going to continue this nonsense, put it in a relevant character thread or something.

---

So guys, what did you think of Leon's balls in this movie?

[Darthtabby]

I'm pretty sure what Thess was saying is that he could tell Sheryl was going to win the love triangle based on her character design...

Also LMK quite frankly I think you're letting your rage dominate and distort your view of events. I've seen it happen before in anime fandom and I do not think it makes for good analysis.

[Yunbo]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

It was obvious point blank from the beginning 30mins of the 1st movie that Sheryl was going to be the point of interest. Hell, she even arrives at a scene that was just Alto and Ranka (GRIFFITH PARK).

The roles went like such:
Alto = main character
Sheryl = main character
Ranka = main character but plays supporting role

But aren't like 99% of the anime love triangles always like this? You always can tell which 2 are the main characters and which isn't.


I always thought that Ranka had the upper hand in the triangle in the first movie. :/

[Tak]

Originally Posted by raile

So guys, what did you think of Leon's balls in this movie?

They dropped... literally.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I'm pretty sure what Thess was saying is that he could tell Sheryl was going to win the love triangle based on her character design...

What I do know, is that when I saw her wardrobe... it was obvious to me a lot of care and attention had been paid to the character. The rest... well, its history.

- Tak

[raile]

Originally Posted by Tak

They dropped... literally.


- Tak

I'm not surprised with the way he was always holding and rubbing them.