(L) Simoun

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by porous_shield

I wished I could have watched this anime back when all the big discussions were going on but I guess I've always watched anime a couple of years after they come out so I'm pernmently late to the party. Anyway...

There's nothing at all wrong with that. It's infinitely better to be late than to miss out the gems of yesteryear.

Originally Posted by porous_shield

It was bittersweet and beautiful BUT I can't shake the feeling that Nevrille and Aaeru ended up in a fate worse than death and in being everywhere and anywhere but still mortals who transcended to that plane. It feels like the other characters sacrified them as a way of leaving their mark on the wall of being Symballa. The thought of their endless waltz, for me, tips the scale from being bittersweet to cruel. Another impression I get is that the last dance symbolize Aaeru and Nevrille lives as adolesences...short, sweet, and ending abruptly so that they are simply gone, sacrified, for the others memories of them as eternal maidens.

I think that whether their is good or ill depends on how Neviril and Aeru think about it. From their point of view, this was pretty much the only outcome that they could live with, so I imagine that it's what they wanted. I also imagine that they would have enough conciousness to break away from Ri Maajon circle if they wanted to. Since time probably passes very differently in that loop, it's quite possible that what we see is just the first little moment of their journey, and that they exited it at a time and place of their choosing. Either way, they won't have to give into the pressures of choosing a gender/growing up, and they can remain with each other.

Originally Posted by porous_shield

It seems others have the impression that Aaeru and Nevrille have the only happy endings when my view is the polar opposite....

I really think of it as everyone having a happy ending of sorts. The war was a fairly pointless piece of violence that didn't do anyone any good, and losing wasn't really some sort of horrible outcome. While not everyone wanted to be forced to choose, the choice itself isn't necessarily evil, and the characters mostly got what they wanted. In a way, that's really the best that can be hoped for, so happy endings all around!

Originally Posted by porous_shield

It was bittersweet and beautiful BUT I can't shake the feeling that Nevrille and Aaeru ended up in a fate worse than death and in being everywhere and anywhere but still mortals who transcended to that plane. It feels like the other characters sacrified them as a way of leaving their mark on the wall of being Symballa. The thought of their endless waltz, for me, tips the scale from being bittersweet to cruel.

For me, whether it's cruel comes down to it being a matter of choice: if they had been forced into the Ri Maajon, then it could be an ultimate cruelty, but since it was their own wills that led to it, it's a matter of personal determination.

Originally Posted by porous_shield

Another impression I get is that the last dance symbolize Aaeru and Nevrille lives as adolesences...short, sweet, and ending abruptly so that they are simply gone, sacrified, for the others memories of them as eternal maidens.

Dominura and Rimone are thought of in much the same way, but I don't think that their fates can be thought of as cruel in the slightest. A lot of it comes down to one's personal interpretation, and that's what lends a lot of richness to Simoun.

Originally Posted by porous_shield

Maybe this forum is dead but I was wondering what others think of my interpretation of the events or if they had similar impressions?

You should always go ahead and post if you have something to contribute. I did much the same thing in the Utena thread, and who knows what kind of interesting discussion that can pop up? Heck, I tend to like posting about older shows more than current ones simply because there's a chance to digest it all, and all of the symbolism and events can be put into proper context.

[fignae]

I have heard or thought of that perspective before, porous_shield (it certainly sounds familiar), and I think it's a definite possibility for the characters.

But this is a little like death and certain religions, isn't it? the ascension to a separate plane. We don't really know whether they are there; we can only have faith that they are and do exist in some other region, and because they have lived and changed us, they remain alive in our hearts and are metaphysically present until the last vestiges of memory fade away. And because we know/think they are somewhere, in a better place, it gives us some hope in our everyday lives.

[porous_shield]

My emotional reaction from the ending of Simon ruined two days last week; it was similar to my reaction to Grave of the Fireflies. What really struck me was not whether they actually went to another world/plane/dimension but the strong impression that they were sacrificied; thoughts of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter came to mind.

After rewatching the finale many time and having time to cool off and think, I don't get that impression any more. I still get a knot in my stomach when I think about it sometimes. Some anime, cough Naruto cough, you can almost feel the puppeteer pulling the strings on our emotions. Oorohimaru's killing of the two sound ninja to use in this fight against the hokage had a biggest affect on me in the entire series. I found in that series the small loses had a much larger affect on me than some of the big loses that were meant to play with emotions. Simoun's finale was like a sock full of lead up side the head and I lost sight of the puppeteer.

Originally Posted by fignae

I have heard or thought of that perspective before, porous_shield (it certainly sounds familiar), and I think it's a definite possibility for the characters.

But this is a little like death and certain religions, isn't it? the ascension to a separate plane. We don't really know whether they are there; we can only have faith that they are and do exist in some other region, and because they have lived and changed us, they remain alive in our hearts and are metaphysically present until the last vestiges of memory fade away. And because we know/think they are somewhere, in a better place, it gives us some hope in our everyday lives.

A little death and a lot of interpretation. Show don't tell (like I'm always telling my students) they leave it to us to come up with an intepretaion rather than forcing it down our throats. Being an atheist, the ending was a bitter pill to swallow. That whole thing about being in our hearts and minds doesn't hold water with me and made my sense that they were sacrificed to write their name in the sky.

[ffp3fdhgu]

are they really out there somewhere? another world? I mean the 2 eternal maiden couples.
Didnt Onashia vanish when Yun held her because It's a penance for those who wish to remain as they are, they cant be touch, they cant be hold by any1 or else they will fade away? I think 4 of them already vanished... yeah u're right porous, it's bitter...
And the last scene, I think it was in the future, cuz in the end they showed the wall carved with every sybilla face from the beginning till the end by Pairetta. Like Onashia or the high priestess said, Emerald Ri Majon can transfer sybilla to the past or future.

[porous_shield]

ffp3 your post got me thinking, maybe Aaeru's and Nevrille's Ri Marjon was a different colour because all of the rest went to the past while they went to the future. I guess it depends on whether the Simoun are somekind of holy artifact or simply very advanced science. There are a few instances where it would appear there is somekind of divine being ex: when all of the Simoun pilots feelings are transfered to her after she takes over Onashia's role.

This is an odd series in that I simultaneously want more closure but know that more would probably ruin somethings.

[ffp3fdhgu]

well i'm just upset about the fact that 4 of them, Limone and Dominura, Aaeru and Nevrille had to vanish and turned into dust as the price for being together without having to choose between male and female...

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by porous_shield

I wished I could have watched this anime back when all the big discussions were going on....

I wish you could have been, too. You (and other people posting now) are adding a lot.

I don't know where Dominura/Limone are. I got the impression they were about to take off again, and that that might prevent further sparkle-dust erosion. But where they will end up, I'm not sure.

Onashia continued to erode over the years, perhaps because she never did go on the Emerald Rimaajon?

Since Neviril/Aaeru are "eternal maidens," I think they are still in existence, continually roaming the world, and occasionally being visible in the sky or visiting their old haunts. They certainly exist in their friends' hearts, metaphorically, at the very least.

They are blessed/cursed with eternal adolescence. They continue to love, continue to be beautiful, continue to be idealistic, romantic, and selfish (?).

I'm not sure whether everyone else has a happy ending or a sad one. The war is over, but a new war is beginning, and in this one, Simulacrum doesn't even control its own decisions any more.

To me, the sad thing is the death of magic, the magic of the holy country. We've moved from a kind of idealized middle ages to the smoke-belching world of the 19th century, unless mass-produced simoun are in the cards. The eternal maidens continue to live in the magic world.

I'm not sure that an atheist should feel badly here. I don't see any gods, just unusual natural processes. Another context for the quote from Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is virtually indistinguishable from magic."

By the way, Onashia's seiyuu (Tamagawa Sakiko, 47) is turning up again these days: as Fujitsubo in the new Genji, and also with a major supporting role in the spring anime Higashi no Eden. She's just as great in Genji as she was in Simoun.

And for anyone who was particularly interested in the yuri aspect of this show, the yuri manga Aoi Hana (scanlated as Sweet Blue Flowers) is being animated, to appear this summer.

[WanderingKnight]

A little death and a lot of interpretation. Show don't tell (like I'm always telling my students) they leave it to us to come up with an intepretaion rather than forcing it down our throats. Being an atheist, the ending was a bitter pill to swallow. That whole thing about being in our hearts and minds doesn't hold water with me and made my sense that they were sacrificed to write their name in the sky.

Come on, this is fiction. Neviril and Aaeru got what they wished for: eternal youth. Whether you "atheistically" interpret it as actual death or you play along with the show and chose to "believe" that they really achieved a static, eternal youth doesn't really say anything about yourself.

Plus, the idea that they "sacrificed" themselves doesn't make much sense since they actually did the whole opposite of that: they chose selfishness--childish selfishness. It really tells a lot once you start thinking about it in terms of the Japanese society (the sense of duty to the society, the separation between the freedom of a child and the responsibilities of an adult--something which in Japan is much more emphasized than in Western societies).

I'm atheist myself, but I try to steer clear of mixing reality and fiction too much.

[ffp3fdhgu]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't know where Dominura/Limone are. I got the impression they were about to take off again, and that that might prevent further sparkle-dust erosion. But where they will end up, I'm not sure.

er... I think the show clearly said that they were in the past, and it's Dominura who started everything about Simoun. She was giving a chance to choose between teaching Simoun to people or not. If she had chosen not, there would be nothing like Simoun or Sibylla or Tempura, every1 wouldnt have met each other etc..
Well anyway this is just a show, which with its ending it gives us a little something to think about afterward so I think there's really nothing to mix fiction with reality. Just my thought though
ps: still upset about 4 of them ... T_T

[porous_shield]

I don't really understand your comment about mixing fiction with reality. I'm trying to make sense of it in terms of the world that they live in. This show does not provide much in terms of concrete answers to how its world works so it is impossible not to bring some of yourself into it.

My first impression and the one that lingers is that Aaeru and Nevril were sacrificed. When the Siblya were talking at the end it sounded like they wanted Aaeru and Nevril to do the Ri Marjon so they could leave a mark in the heavens to show they (the other Siblya) existed. If you interpret it as Aaeru and Nevril being the only ones that get to follow their selfish pursuits than it seems a much happier ending than the one I thought of.

Anyhow, the scene of Aaeru and Nevril dancing in the partly submerged ship has got to be one of the saddest images I've come across in any anime or manga no matter what your interpretation. Either they were sacrificed and the dance is symbolic of the short time all the girls were simbyla (I can never spell that word right) that ends abruptly-- or--- the two girls were the only ones to be able to pursue their selfish desires and though the other girls can look back on their almost magical adolesence, the world has changed and they now have responsibilites and worries and can't spend their whole time reminiscing.

I can't really decide if the people at the end wanted to stop Aaeru and Nevril from doing the Ri Marjon because they wanted to force them to become part of society or if the Siblya were viewed as a sort of symbol of war that he wanted to be rid of. To have two flyers become eternal symbols of war would not be appealing if I were a representative of another country.

[WanderingKnight]

I don't really understand your comment about mixing fiction with reality.

I was referring to this line in particular:

Being an atheist, the ending was a bitter pill to swallow.

Your being an atheist in real life should really have nothing to do with your appreciation of a fictional story.

If you interpret it as Aaeru and Nevril being the only ones that get to follow their selfish pursuits than it seems a much happier ending than the one I thought of.

It's because it makes much more sense and is consistent with all the information we're given, and the development the characters go through. All the time the show plays with the relationship between one's childish, selfish desires and fulfilling our duties to society, the latter idea being represented, as always in the Japanese collective consciousness, as growing up and maturing.

Aaeru is the key element here. She's from the very beginning the only character who doesn't want to grow up. She always says she wants to be free, and that freedom has a lot to do with detaching herself from the chains society imposes upon her--the extremely clear representation of such a thing being the choosing of a gender. Neviril, who undergoes the conflict all Sybillae go through in a more profound manner because she doesn't know what she wants for herself, is inspired by Aaeru to pursuit her selfish desires. Dominura also tried to free herself from the chains of duty, but the catastrophic failure of her defiant act (failing to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon) ended up with her becoming an even deeper prisoner of society as a form of punishment (Onashia).

The idea that performing the Emerald Ri Maajon was in some way a "sacrifice" for the rest of the Sybillae really doesn't make much sense, taking into account all I just said, and adding the particular moment in the events when it is performed--it's done when everything has already ended. Simoun has an early climax: two or three episodes before the final one, all the story events have already been played out. Aaeru's and Neviril's performance of the Emerald Ri Maajon occurs when no sacrifice was needed at all, and the reaction of the rest of the cast didn't really make it seem like a one.

So yes, the ending is happy. Though it could be bittersweet if you take into account what happened to Dominura (which is also fully hinted at in the final episode).

PS: While writing this, I couldn't help but echo in my head, "God, this series is so good". Few series have done this for me. Simoun definitely needs more recognition than it's been given (I blame the themes they chose and the blatant yuri undertones).

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by ffp3fdhgu

er... I think the show clearly said that they were in the past, and it's Dominura who started everything about Simoun. She was giving a chance to choose between teaching Simoun to people or not. If she had chosen not, there would be nothing like Simoun or Sibylla or Tempura, every1 wouldnt have met each other etc..

I don't think things are made that clear, although I think it's likely that Dominura started the teaching of how to use simoun. Dominura and Limone flew to the past, it appears, but I don't think we know where the simoun themselves originated, only that there were some around in the past for the locals to find and learn to fly. Maybe they were planted from the future, and maybe they had survived from the past.

And I actually don't see any reason to believe that Dominura was Onashia. Different voice actresses, for one thing, and this show loves to use the same voice actresses in many roles. Yes, they both belonged to Chor Dextra, but that's all we know, isn't it? Had either of them done the Jade Rimaajon before? The last we see Dominura, she is up from her bed of decline and willing to take off again with Limone. Where they went, or even if they went, we do not know.

I do agree with the idea that it was a happy ending for Aaeru and Neviril, but perhaps it also shows that "happy endings" have their sad sides: there they are, wandering eternity, apparently with no way of contacting their friends. I do agree that they are a bit of a sacrifice for the others, though, too. The others can retain this glorious thought of their friends flying free while they are safely tied to ordinary reality, and to their choice of genders.

[WanderingKnight]

And I actually don't see any reason to believe that Dominura was Onashia. Different voice actresses, for one thing, and this show loves to use the same voice actresses in many roles. Yes, they both belonged to Chor Dextra, but that's all we know, isn't it? Had either of them done the Jade Rimaajon before? The last we see Dominura, she is up from her bed of decline and willing to take off again with Limone. Where they went, or even if they went, we do not know.

Not this again...

With all the information we're given, the whole thing would suck if Dominura wasn't Onashia. Different voice actresses are a minimum detail when you take into account the fact that Yun mentions her name out of nowhere in the final episode, and Dominura is seen dropping the same sparkling stuff Onashia did. The actresses thing might just be something they did to make it less obvious during the beginning of the series, or perhaps because they were looking for something else for Onashia's voice.

The show never ever explicitly states it, but we're given way too many hints in that direction--and the whole story would have a much prettier closure that way. If all those hints are for nothing, then it would suck. A lot.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Not this again...

With all the information we're given, the whole thing would suck if Dominura wasn't Onashia. Different voice actresses are a minimum detail when you take into account the fact that Yun mentions her name out of nowhere in the final episode, and Dominura is seen dropping the same sparkling stuff Onashia did. The actresses thing might just be something they did to make it less obvious during the beginning of the series, or perhaps because they were looking for something else for Onashia's voice.

The show never ever explicitly states it, but we're given way too many hints in that direction--and the whole story would have a much prettier closure that way. If all those hints are for nothing, then it would suck. A lot.

I don't see that many hints. Yun's "Dominura," carrying the cradle, would fit. But I'm still not convinced.

1. The sparkly stuff is a sibylla out of her proper time/status eroding away.
2. You're right they might have just used different VAs early on. But the different VAs at least has some weight in saying they are not the same person.
3. They don't look that much alike to me, either, but that could be time and troubles.
4. And as far as we know, Onashia never says anything to Yun about Limone's fate, which she might have been expected to do if she were Dominura.

I kind of hoped it was true early on -- I might even have suggested it during the show's run -- but the hints you've mentioned so far don't seem enough to prove it to me. Of course, nothing disproves it, either. But Onashia with her own hidden life story is also pretty satisfying, to me.

[Taigyth]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't see that many hints. Yun's "Dominura," carrying the cradle, would fit. But I'm still not convinced.

1. The sparkly stuff is a sibylla out of her proper time/status eroding away.
2. You're right they might have just used different VAs early on. But the different VAs at least has some weight in saying they are not the same person.
3. They don't look that much alike to me, either, but that could be time and troubles.
4. And as far as we know, Onashia never says anything to Yun about Limone's fate, which she might have been expected to do if she were Dominura.

I kind of hoped it was true early on -- I might even have suggested it during the show's run -- but the hints you've mentioned so far don't seem enough to prove it to me. Of course, nothing disproves it, either. But Onashia with her own hidden life story is also pretty satisfying, to me.

I agree that Dominura and Onashia are different people because Dominura managed to pull off a successful Emeral Ri Maajon but Onashia makes it sound like she failed. She says she wasn't able to become an eternal maiden nor able to go to another world and has remained there (in the Spring). Yun most likely mentions Onashia's name because she's remembering her and because she obviously had an attachment to her.

[WanderingKnight]

I agree that Dominura and Onashia are different people because Dominura managed to pull off a successful Emeral Ri Maajon but Onashia makes it sound like she failed.

Huh, Dominura failed to perform the Ri Maajon. Only Aaeru and Neviril succeeded, and thus they managed to become eternal maidens--that's the whole point of the ending. Dominura got warped back in time and got the same disease Onashia had... I can hardly call that succeeding.

(Plus, the animation was exactly the same as Amuria's failed attempt at the beginning of the series).

But Onashia with her own hidden life story is also pretty satisfying, to me.

Saying that it would suck was a bit of a hyperbole on my part, but the point remains: Dominura being Onashia makes the whole story much, much better. It gives meaning both to Dominura and Onashia. Without them being the same person... they just aren't complete characters. We'd be missing a lot of information on Onashia's intentions and a lot of information on Dominura's feelings towards the end of the series.

[Kaoru Chujo]

To tell the truth, the more I consider it, the more I feel WanderingKnight's feeling that Onashia=Dominura would be satisfying. And I don't think it's impossible, just not demonstrated strongly enough for me to accept. Yet.

It is possible that eventually, having lost Limone in some way, Dominura found her way to the privileged space of the cavern, which remains either out of time or in all times.

I have remained unsure about just what Dominura/Limone did. The sibyllae watching thought it was a Jade Rimaajon that failed. But whatever it was, it sent them into what appears to be the past. (I once hoped for a sequel based on Amuria, wherever she went.) Probably it was a Jade Rimaajon that failed, which sends you to "another world" (see below), whereas a successful jade makes you an "eternal maiden."

What did Onashia tell Yun? Did she never try the Jade Rimaajon, in which case she would not be Dominura? Or did all her co-Chor Dextra sibyllae succeed and she didn't, in which case she might be Dominura? I'm not sure which episode that would be in.

EDIT: Ep24 begins with Onashia telling Yun that she refused to choose her sex but was unable to become an eternal maiden and unable to go to another world, so she remained there as a penance. Dominura went to another world.

Neviril's confession to Aaeru comes in that episode, too. Wow. The two stage actresses, Takahashi Rieko and Niino Michi are just great. Voice acting of a high order.

[Proto]

Your being an atheist in real life should really have nothing to do with your appreciation of a fictional story.

How so? True, emotional appreciation of any artistic form is all about empathy, about putting yourself in someone else's situation. However, it is next to impossible to put aside one's emotional, psychological and ideological baggage when doing so. Depending on the person you can expect differing levels of detachment, however it is irrational to ask for complete empathy and detachment. I know, since the religious/scientifical implications in Eureka 7 made me roll my atheist eyes more than once, even if it wasn't the case in Simoun.

[WanderingKnight]

EDIT: Ep24 begins with Onashia telling Yun that she refused to choose her sex but was unable to become an eternal maiden and unable to go to another world, so she remained there as a penance. Dominura went to another world.

Would that be your interpretation of another world? As far as I'm concerned, they just went back in time. The betsu no sekai, as far as I recall, was the other sybillae's interpretation of their fate. This could be backed up by a missing piece of the puzzle I haven't completely figured out yet: What did exactly Dominura see inside the Simoun? Did she foresaw the fact that she was the one who brought it to that world?

And the refusal to choose gender strengthens the case even more, since Dominura is as unsure as Neviril about it throughout the whole series. She simply makes up her mind earlier, but arrives to the same answer (her relationship with Limone is key, Limone being much, much younger and becoming somewhat of an image to aspire to for Dominura). She is just unable to achieve what Neviril and Aaeru accomplished (the true eternal maiden). For refusing to choose her gender and her inability to reach an ethereal eternity, she becomes an outcast.

How so?

I'm not saying you absolutely must not do it, I'm saying it just doesn't make much sense and will not help your enjoyment of the series, because the point of the series is not to force religious propaganda down your throat (neither was that Eureka Seven's case, either).

[Kaoru Chujo]

Well, Wandering Knight, I like your interpretation of what Dominura sees in Limone. And I would prefer to believe that Onashia and Dominura are the same person. I'll keep working on it, lol.

They don't seem to me to look alike, either, but I haven't made a study of that, and time and suffering could change appearance. But when Yun spoke with Onashia in ep24, there was no hint from either of them that they had met outside the cavern, and Onashia seemed to imply that she had never strayed from the normal world. Yun said something about wanting to put the souls of her comrades to rest, so that could have been what she was doing when she held the cradle and said Dominura's name.