Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Hmm...I'd say you might be right about Frontier (except for the ending...Yoshino decided that, Kawamori let him do it even though he didn't like it at first), but about Escaflowne...? I've never seen any in-depth account of the making of Escaflowne. Where are you getting your info from?

I kinda guess from the other fans around here.

Reposted from last post on last page:

But, seriously for a second, LoveMeKags is right on the money on one particular aspect:

If we all know that the next series by Kawamori will probably end with another of those cliched bittersweet-tragic endings, doesn't that kill the motivation and enjoyment of it somewhat? I mean, probably not for the people who like that kind of story, but as for the rest?

I think I can say with certainty that the next project by Kawamori will be approached with much scepticism on my part.

Also: How many years again until the 30th anniversary of Macross?

[Se7en Sabers]

Just wonder,

Is Macross Frontier a popular anime in Japan ?

Sounds like a stupid question but in comparison with some top tier like Gundam, One Piece etc.. ?

[LoveMeKags]

Macross Zero was a little too quickly gone through and slow, boring for most of it. If I recall correctly, the series was only meant to show a prequel to SDF only. It had no real reason for being there. I was amazed that Wikipedia said this because yes, not a lot of people were interested in it. I, being one of them.

Spoiler for The world of Kawamori is confusing, ne?:

As for Frontier: a LOT of crap went down between Kawamori and his producers/scriptwriters/whatnot over how to end the story/triangle. The ending that was chosen didn't suit his ideas, apparently, so he went back and said "I'll make a movie."

As for DYRL: they said it was a retelling of the story... well, if I hadn't watched the first few episodes of SDF before watching the movie, I would've have known why they were in space or what the heck was a Macross. Plus, both storylines were different. Minmei and Hikaru met before they boarded the Macross, whereas movie!Minmei meets him for the first time 5 months out on the journey. It was a little screwed up.

Kawamori (I cannot keep this to myself) loves to give you things you don't want to see. Honestly, I've seen more bad endings from him than I care to count. For once, I thought I'd see a good ending. However, he didn't do it... at least not well. I wouldn't have killed Alto... after all, he said back in the series that he didn't really want to kill Michael, then he goes and... does this.
As for Minmei vs. Misa: no, Misa was more popular when DYRL was released and when SDF reached it's peak, she was the one they adored more. So when the votes were cast, he turned to Hikaru/Misa ending. Personally, that was his BEST ending, because he verbally asked her to marry him.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Se7en Sabers

Just wonder,

Is Macross Frontier a popular anime in Japan ?

Sounds like a stupid question but in comparison with some top tier like Gundam, One Piece etc.. ?

IIRC, Frontier even outsold Code Geass in combined Blue Ray + DVD sales. At least on a season per season comparison, since Geass got two seasons.

[Westlo]

Macross came out in 1982, MF the 25th anny project was 2007 remember. Like I said Aquarion Evol for 2011 and than into 30th Anny project.

Originally Posted by Se7en Sabers

Just wonder,

Is Macross Frontier a popular anime in Japan ?

Sounds like a stupid question but in comparison with some top tier like Gundam, One Piece etc.. ?

As far as DVD/BR sales go it's one of the most popular of the last decade.

78380 ** Bakemonogatari
68729 13 Kidou Senshi Gundam SEED DESTINY
58589 13 Kidou Senshi Gundam SEED
46147 *9 Macross Frontier
45367 *9 Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch
43064 ** K-ON!
42690 *9 Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch R2
41038 *8 Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu

I think Code Geass has gone past it but than again I haven't seen updated figures for MF either, who knows maybe with this ending you'll see more people buying the Blurays since they felt robbed with the way the tv series ended.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Westlo

might have something to do with zero and aquarion not exactly being hits with the western online fanbase, but i've seen several people before mention he does these types of endings and the facts are yes he does.

Before I start, Magnus, a week or so ago, tried to twist my point into "Kawamori is perfect." This was not something I ever said, nor do I believe it. Of course, anybody can call Kawamori a troll or anything else they want. I can call him "the Nobel Award-winning author of The Sun Also Rises" if I want. Just because someone says it doesn't make it RIGHT.

Anyway, I'm curious where you get your information that he has the most sway on any series he works on. If you look at his filmography at ANN, he's done a hell of a lot of work. How many of these series would you call "Kawamori shows"? If nobody noticed his "troll" endings before Frontier (or, arguably, Zero...most people didn't call that a "troll," though...they just said it sucked), is it possible that you're just looking back on other series he worked on, saying, "Okay, Escaflowne had a bittersweet ending...LOL Kawamori troll u! SDF Macross? No troll ending, so yeah, not a Kawamori show. Macross 7? TOTALLY Kawamori!! Macross Plus...hmmm...I have absolutely no proof, but I bet everything good in that is because of Watanabe."

Kawamori gets unfairly maligned as doing everything bad in shows he works on, while others get praised for everything good.

But all this is done in ignorance. None of us now how the descisions are made, who exactly does what. We can guess, we can take the available evidence and try to deduce it...but most people don't do that much work. And so "Kawamori = troll" becomes an easy meme to remember, whether it's accurate or not.

I submit that it's inaccurate. This apparently pisses off some people.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Macross came out in 2012, MF the 25th anny project was 2007 remember. Like I said Aquarion Evol for 2011 and than into 30th Anny project.

Well, there's space for one OVA for the TV series in there, then. At least I hope so.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Before I start, Magnus, a week or so ago, tried to twist my point into "Kawamori is perfect." This was not something I ever said, nor do I believe it. Of course, anybody can call Kawamori a troll or anything else they want. I can call him "the Nobel Award-winning author of The Sun Also Rises" if I want. Just because someone says it doesn't make it RIGHT.

Anyway, I'm curious where you get your information that he has the most sway on any series he works on. If you look at his filmography at ANN, he's done a hell of a lot of work. How many of these series would you call "Kawamori shows"? If nobody noticed his "troll" endings before Frontier (or, arguably, Zero...most people didn't call that a "troll," though...they just said it sucked), is it possible that you're just looking back on other series he worked on, saying, "Okay, Escaflowne had a bittersweet ending...LOL Kawamori troll u! SDF Macross? No troll ending, so yeah, not a Kawamori show. Macross 7? TOTALLY Kawamori!! Macross Plus...hmmm...I have absolutely no proof, but I bet everything good in that is because of Watanabe."

Kawamori gets unfairly maligned as doing everything bad in shows he works on, while others get praised for everything good.

But all this is done in ignorance. None of us now how the descisions are made, who exactly does what. We can guess, we can take the available evidence and try to deduce it...but most people don't do that much work. And so "Kawamori = troll" becomes an easy meme to remember, whether it's accurate or not.

I submit that it's inaccurate. This apparently pisses off some people.

I mostly am very put off by the tone you used to convey your opinion on this topic, which sounded exactly like someone trying to forbid me from expressing my opinion. Which, I might note, is a 100% sure trigger to set off my fireworks.

[Westlo]

Yot why are you trying to say bittersweet = troll when i like bittersweet endings? You clearly have an issue to argue with someone else, so use their words not mine. My point is Kawamori does bittersweet endings, so people should stop using the bittersweet ending as a form of protest from him. Even if he didn't direct Escaflowne (and saying Akane is a better director than Kawamori is hardly an insult, if he had any sense in him he would agree since Akane is an amazing director, hope he knows what he got into with the next Code Geass... poor Goro...) but he was the scriptwriter for it.

And he doesn't have to do the same ending all the time.. if you look @ all his shows though a trend occurs, and again can someone mention if Arjuna had a bittersweet ending or not? I couldn't stand the preaching in that one, so I dropped it.

[magnuskn]

Oooh, I smell some bromance brewing here again between Wes and Yot.

Yot, I'll amend my stance to that series in which Kawamori was involved have a very high incidence of troll endings. Which may or may not be related to their proximity to Kawamori. Deal?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I mostly am very put off by the tone you used to convey your opinion on this topic, which sounded exactly like someone trying to forbid me from expressing my opinion. Which, I might note, is a 100% sure trigger to set off my fireworks.

I wouldn't ever do that. I'll tell people that I think they're wrong, or (where they're trading in factual errors) I'll tell people plainly that they are wrong (as whoever it was who said that Kawamori wrote episode 17 of Frontier, or directed Escaflowne), but telling people not to post is silly, since I have no power to enforce that (which was also a problem when Moncikoma was copying my entries and pasting them on another site, without attribution, giving everyone the impression that, for example, he went to the Christmas concert, or that he took photos of Griffith Park observatory...I wanted him to stop, I asked him to stop, but really...what can I do about it? All one can say is "please don't." Which isn't the same as forbidding someone from doing something.

[LoveMeKags]

What stumped me was that he said Brera would be an important character, then...

Spoiler for spoiler:

he died.

I didn't understand why he'd do something like that exactly. After all, Alto and Brera were rivals in the series. He directed and wrote the story to a LOT of the series. The movie was like his fantasy come true. I know that sounds cheesy, but he's the type to love tragic endings.
And to think, I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean 3 last night... and then this. How weird is that?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I wouldn't ever do that. I'll tell people that I think they're wrong, or (where they're trading in factual errors) I'll tell people plainly that they are wrong (as whoever it was who said that Kawamori wrote episode 17 of Frontier, or directed Escaflowne), but telling people not to post is silly, since I have no power to enforce that (which was also a problem when Moncikoma was copying my entries and pasting them on another site, without attribution, giving everyone the impression that, for example, he went to the Christmas concert, or that he took photos of Griffith Park observatory...I wanted him to stop, I asked him to stop, but really...what can I do about it? All one can say is "please don't." Which isn't the same as forbidding someone from doing something.

Noted as such. I'm sorry if I came off as a bit of a cad lately.

[wisteria233]

Spoiler for the ending:

So the ending is bittersweet huh?

Not at all surprised, considering many of the ends of quite a few couples in any series Kawamori has ever had a hand in.

I mean seriously this ending reminds me of Sousei no Aquarion, where the Apollo dies and Silva has to wait 12,000 years to be reincarnated to be together with him, and Macross Zero where Shin and Sara disappear. Basquash ending was pretty much also like the Frontier tv series.

I don't mind bittersweet endings, but like I said I'll hold off judgment until I can actually see the movie for myself.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Yot why are you trying to say bittersweet = troll when i like bittersweet endings? You clearly have an issue to argue with someone else, so use their words not mine. My point is Kawamori does bittersweet endings, so people should stop using the bittersweet ending as a form of protest from him. Even if he didn't direct Escaflowne (and saying Akane is a better director than Kawamori is hardly an insult, if he had any sense in him he would agree since Akane is an amazing director) but he was the scriptwriter for it.

And he doesn't have to do the same ending all the time.. if you look @ all his shows though a trend occurs, and again can someone mention if Arjuna had a bittersweet ending or not? I couldn't stand the preaching in that one, so I dropped it.

Okay, so which shows do you think of as "Kawamori shows"?

Does DYRL have a bittersweet ending? How about Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu? What about Spring and Chaos? Shanghai Dragon

And Kawamori was the scriptwriter for Escaflowne, but he wasn't the writer. He took the stories the writing team wrote and hammered them into screenplays (teleplays, if you want to get anal about it).

Yoshino, on the other hand, wrote, from scratch, every episode of Frontier. So wouldn't he be the one you should be praising or blaming?

[raile]

Man, I wish we could discuss the movie in a formalistic approach...but that's just me.
Hmm, can't wait for the OST and the DVD/BD, although for the latter it will be probably be a long wait.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Spoiler for the ending:

SI don't mind bittersweet endings, but like I said I'll hold off judgment until I can actually see the movie for myself.

Spoiler for meh:

I do mind that by now you can predict that a show where he is involved will not have a happy ending. Kinda takes away from the tension when watching it. Unless one is the kind of person who can't wait to see how it ends with all the protagonists hearts broken.

[marce_chany]

look for a fan like me that think

Spoiler for ending:

all the night that alto was dead and sheryl alive for me this ending with alto in MIA and Sheryl in coma is the best!! because is a hope!!! sheryl without alto it can't be.... and if is this true what aragaki says about the eaarings flash and mouth twitch ... I'm the most happy fan in the world because that mean that he comeback and she a wakes i don't need wath a wedding I don't need anything..... just know that they meet again

Originally Posted by Westlo

You should be happy with what we got, I'm expecting a extended scene for the end anyway to come with the Bluray. I mean c'mon guys look @ Aragaki's post..

Spoiler:

earring flash, mouth twitch

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Okay, so which shows do you think of as "Kawamori shows"?

Does DYRL have a bittersweet ending? How about Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu? What about Spring and Chaos? Shanghai Dragon

And Kawamori was the scriptwriter for Escaflowne, but he wasn't the writer. He took the stories the writing team wrote and hammered them into screenplays (teleplays, if you want to get anal about it).

Yoshino, on the other hand, wrote, from scratch, every episode of Frontier. So wouldn't he be the one you should be praising or blaming?

Kawamori was also the consultant for Escaflowne as well as the story editor.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Spoiler for meh:

I do mind that by now you can predict that a show where he is involved will not have a happy ending. Kinda takes away from the tension when watching it. Unless one is the kind of person who can't wait to see how it ends with all the protagonists hearts broken.

Yes, but I only like to pass out judgment once I'm sure about the facts leading up to it.

@LoveMeKags I can easily point out that Alto being suspicious towards Sheryl in the previous movie was all because of Ozma, being severely over protective, and then hammering it into Alto to not spend time with Sheryl. When Ozma wasn't there to hammer this into Alto, he got along with Sheryl just fine.

[Westlo]

Kawamori was the creator of Escaflowne, did screenplay and was the story editor as well as supervisor of the team. It's silly to downplay the involvement of Kawamori in that series which was pretty much his baby. The biggest misconception about Escaflowne is that Kawamori did the mecha designs for the series, he didn't do that all which is surprising for a lot of people.

I've already said that not every Kawamori show had a bittersweet ending so I don't know why you're listing all his shows that didn't. But when Escaflowne, Macross Zero, Aquarion, Macross Frontier Movie and more than likely Aquarion 2 (and maybe Arjuna) have bittersweet endings than...

Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu only lists him as the original creator and it seems he had no input after coming up with the concept.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Kawamori was the creator of Escaflowne, did screenplay and was the story editor as well as supervisor of the team. It's silly to downplay the involvement of Kawamori in that series which was pretty much his baby. The biggest misconception about Escaflowne is that Kawamori did the mecha designs for the series, he didn't do that all which is surprising for a lot of people.

I've already said that not every Kawamori show had a bittersweet ending so I don't know why you're listing all his shows that didn't. But when Escaflowne, Macross Zero, Aquarion, Macross Frontier Movie and more than likely Aquarion 2 had a similar ending than...

Yeah, either bittersweet or a non-resolution to the romance. And, hey, I will easily parcel out some blame to Yoshino, too!