(L+CR) selector infected WIXOSS

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

What needs defending? She made fun of pervy incest girl, won a game and threatened to destroy her eldritch abomination. I see nothing wrong with any of that.

If you had the ability to mind read someone would you consider it perfectly okay to horribly invade someones privacy by finding out an emotional adolescent girl's deepest darkest secret and then make fun of her for it?

I'm also pretty sure Akira wasn’t under the impression that her card girl was an eldritch abomination before she threatened to kill her. Moreover neither should we. Given that they appear to be just as sentient as ourselves, would you be willing to rip up such a card if you had one in your hands? The narrative is certainly making hints that this game has a real dark side to it but I wouldn't exactly call that a good enough reason to potentially take a life.

At the end of the day it's hard to blame Akira when she more or less appears to be the result of the system that's the real problem, and the narrative certainly goes overboard in portraying her as a bitch. But at the same time, I wouldn't say she's doing nothing wrong.


[EDIT]

Fucking Triple_R ninja'd me. DX

[Cloudedmind]

I do find it funny and ironic that both Akira and Iona's card act like the person they hate.

[NinjaRealist]

This is one of those cases where I think you either see it one way or you see it another way. The way I see it, blackmail and emotional manipulation are always wrong, but if you have a life ideology that permits those types of behaviors then I doubt anyone could convince you otherwise. From my perspective, Akira's behavior is both unsympathetic and unjustifiable.

Now does that mean I blame Akira? Absolutely not. Unlike a lot of you, I don't believe in personal responsibility. That doesn't mean I think people should do whatever they want regardless of the consequences, but it does mean that I think people have very little control over their beliefs or actions. So I don't blame Akira for being the way she is: I blame her circumstances.

But I agree with 95% of what Triple R said except for the whole "personal responsibility" thing.

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm also pretty sure Akira wasn’t under the impression that her card girl was an eldritch abomination before she threatened to kill her. Moreover neither should we. Given that they appear to be just as sentient as ourselves, would you be willing to rip up such a card if you had one in your hands?

Yeah, I'm not sure where the eldritch abominations thing came from or by what standards the LRIGs fall into that category. When I think of Eldritch Abominations I think of, like, Cthulhu or Madoka Monsters.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

We are all capable of being more productive if we focus our energies on the productive rather than the disruptive aspects of competition.

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

Unlike a lot of you, I don't believe in personal responsibility. That doesn't mean I think people should do whatever they want regardless of the consequences, but it does mean that I think people have very little control over their beliefs or actions.

You don't see a contradiction between these two quotes? Because I certainly do.

I agree with the first quote and so I disagree with the second quote. Yes, people are quite capable of being productive rather than engaging in disruptive or harmful activities. People do in fact have some real control over that. And so I believe in personal responsibility.

Suppose a person leaves their keys in the car with the car doors' unlocked while they're out at the mall shopping. Then somebody just casually opens up the door of their car and drives off with it, stealing it.

This sort of carelessness is totally preventable. People (well, adult people at least) are responsible to look after their own things. People are quite capable of preventing this sort of theft as long as they just apply a little bit of effort to looking after their car.

Now, does this excuse the car thief? Of course not. What the car thief did is still wrong, no matter how easy the car owner made it for the car thief to do.


And I see this situation in WIXOSS as being somewhat similar. The WIXOSS competitors should know full well the gravity of what they're battling over, so they should be prepared for at least some of their competitors not "playing nice". If you can't handle that, don't play, simple as that.

But being an excessively harmful jerk is still being an excessively harmful jerk, just like being a thief is still being a thief.

[Kazu-kun]

Akira's strength comes from disrupting her opponent's game. This can't be helped as her deck is put together around her LRIG card, which came with those sort of powers and affinities. If she refused to use her mind reading ability, she would be a lot weaker. In some cases that might mean throwing away the match, and the match between Ruko and Hitoe shows that's the worst you can do.

So I don't think using her powers in this context is morally wrong. These are the cards she got, and she has to use them to their fullest, even if it means acting like a bitch during the match. The issue (and the reason she's not getting points even though she's winning) is not that her strategy hurts her opponents feelings imo. The problem is that she enjoys it. At the very least that's the impression I got.

Somehow I feels if after every game she went and told her opponent that she didn't mean what she said and it was just a game thing, then she would actually get those points.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Akira's strength comes from disrupting her opponent's game. This can't be helped as her deck is put together around her LRIG car, which came with those sort of power and affinities. My point is that her mind reading ability IS a essential part of her game.

Only insofar as it applies to card destruction. Of course she should try to figure out what cards her opponent's have, and use her abilities and various "break the poker face" tricks to achieve that.

But reading her opponent's mind when it comes to what wish they have has nothing to do with this card destruction. It is invasive at a much deeper and more emotional level than simply finding out what cards your opponent is holding. So that specifically is not an essential part of her game, and certainly not of the game in general.

So I don't think using her powers in this context is morally wrong. These are the cards she got so she has to use it. Her issue (and the reason she's not getting points even though she's winning) is not that her strategy hurts her opponents feelings. The problem is that she enjoys it. At the very least that's the impression I got.

My impression is the opposite. I think that we are supposed to view her strategy of intentionally hurting her opponent's feelings in a negative light. The contrast between the two matches in Episode 3 could not be any clearer here, in my view.

In one match, the two opponents play fair and square and with respect for each other, and the winner benefits. In the other match, things are marred by Akira's harsh strategy and so nobody benefits aside from the bare minimum.

Okada loves contrast and parallelism, so I'm pretty confident that this contrast isn't meant to reflect well on Akira.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My impression is the opposite. I think that we are supposed to view her strategy of intentionally hurting her opponent's feelings in a negative light. The contrast between the two matches in Episode 3 could not be any clearer here, in my view.

In one match, the two opponents play fair and square and with respect for each other, and the winner benefits. In the other match, things are marred by Akira's harsh strategy and so nobody benefits aside from the bare minimum.

Okada loves contrast and parallelism, so I'm pretty confident that this contrast isn't meant to reflect well on Akira.

You mean in one match you have someone initiating a match against someone she believes is a weak prey and flat out says that's the only reason she is playing against her, and in the other match we get /two/ people making a match because they are too proud to not do one, and both try to hurt the others and believe their way is the only way?

Yeah, Akira/Yuzuki's match is actually a lot fairer. Hitoe's kind of a bitch, not that Ruko is any better.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Somehow I feels if after every game she went and told her opponent that she didn't mean what she said and it was just a game thing, then she would actually get those points.

I think it has to do with her wish- she has to have the right kind of comportment for the wish to progress, and she doesn't. For someone like Ruko who wants to be strong, she has to show strength and confidence.

For someone like Hitoe, she has to stop trying to prey on the weak and actually be nurturing and nice.

For someone like Yuzuki, she has to trust her brothers and admit her own feelings without guilt.

I don't know Arika's wish, so it's kinda harder to tell, but my guess is it is a wish that has to do with popularity, and as such she has to learn to be social and a elegant winner.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Only insofar as it applies to card destruction.

Just using her card destruction isn't good enough. She would be restraining herself if she didn't use all her abilities, including her mind reading. She would be purposely weakening herself, which is bad on its way.

In one match, the two opponents play fair and square and with respect for each other, and the winner benefits. In the other match, things are marred by Akira's harsh strategy and so nobody benefits aside from the bare minimum.

It's more complex than that. The story makes it a point that not doing your best is wrong too. You just can't throw away the match. If you're going to do that you shouldn't play in the first place.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Arkeus

I think it has to do with her wish- she has to have the right kind of comportment for the wish to progress, and she doesn't. For someone like Ruko who wants to be strong, she has to show strength and confidence.

For someone like Hitoe, she has to stop trying to prey on the weak and actually be nurturing and nice.

For someone like Yuzuki, she has to trust her brothers and admit her own feelings without guilt.

I don't know Arika's wish, so it's kinda harder to tell, but my guess is it is a wish that has to do with popularity, and as such she has to learn to be social and a elegant winner.

This makes a lot of sense. If it's like this, the story isn't really talking about morals. It's about being honest with yourself. And I think you're right, considering Yuzuki's constant denial.

[HandofFate]

Akira is definitely portrayed in a negative light in the shows. Especially after the matches where even though she won, she's still angry, and we find out hints of her wish just having to deal with revenge or destroying her rival in the idol business. She's one that is consumed by her desires and drunk off the possibility of getting it thru playing a childrens card game.

Mind-reading is invasive, but I like it since its a power that looks like its something close to her personality and wish.

And it makes me look forward to what the other girls powers will be once their card 'persona' evolves more will be. I assume once they actually win a few games and their LIRG evolves a few times, they will end up obtaining a useable power in these special card battles outside of just throwing down cards that will match their personality or wish similar to Akira.

Kind of like a leader ability.

Right now, I'm just not that condemning on the mind reading because I think Hitoe and Yuzuki deserved it. They were just so mentally weak and unprepared, and didn't take long at all to fall for her tricks.

[NinjaRealist]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't see a contradiction between these two quotes? Because I certainly do.

I agree with the first quote and so I disagree with the second quote. Yes, people are quite capable of being productive rather than engaging in disruptive or harmful activities. People do in fact have some real control over that. And so I believe in personal responsibility.

Suppose a person leaves their keys in the car with the car doors' unlocked while they're out at the mall shopping. Then somebody just casually opens up the door of their car and drives off with it, stealing it.

This sort of carelessness is totally preventable. People (well, adult people at least) are responsible to look after their own things. People are quite capable of preventing this sort of theft as long as they just apply a little bit of effort to looking after their car.

Now, does this excuse the car thief? Of course not. What the car thief did is still wrong, no matter how easy the car owner made it for the car thief to do.


And I see this situation in WIXOSS as being somewhat similar. The WIXOSS competitors should know full well the gravity of what they're battling over, so they should be prepared for at least some of their competitors not "playing nice". If you can't handle that, don't play, simple as that.

But being an excessively harmful jerk is still being an excessively harmful jerk, just like being a thief is still being a thief.

I can totally see why those two points come across as contradictory but I personally don't see them as a contradiction. The first quote was talking about how our behaviors impact others and how, if we try to behave in a way that doesn't harm others, it makes society more productive as a whole. However, while I believe that many people get the opportunity to use their agency to positively influence society as a whole, I don't really believe that we have much control over the kind of choices we get to make, or how we make them.

So, although it might seem paradoxical, what I'm essentially arguing is that the conventional wisdom of "You can't change other people, you can only change yourself" is actually kind of backwards. I think we have actually have more power to change other people than to change ourselves because the decisions we make for ourselves are so tied up in personal bias that it's all but impossible to extricate ourselves from our physical/emotional needs/desires.

And WIXOSS offers some great illustrations of this. Yuzuki can't help the fact that she loves her brother. She also can't help the intense frustration, verging on self-hatred, that this love makes her feel. In fact, the Akira match illustrated how she was powerless to even stand up for her own beliefs in the face of insult. It seems like the only way she can ever accept her feelings is if someone else is able to accept her feelings first.

Hitoe kind of demonstrates the same thing. She felt so worthless and hopeless when she transferred, even though she seems like a pretty decent person. It was only the letter she got from her friend that was able to calm her down and make her feel better about everything. So it would seem that her friend has greater power to influence Hitoe's behavior than Hitoe herself.

I realize this is probably a controversial perspective, and I expect most people to disagree with me, but I think that should pretty well explain how both of those assertions can fit into the same viewpoint.

EDIT

Having said all this, I fully expect the show to invalidate my perspective and ultimately present some kind of "personal responsibility" narrative. "Personal responsibility" a widely held belief that verges on a form of religion in human society. But I'm not the type of person who changes my viewpoint just because the majority disagrees with me. I'll only change my views if someone else can change them with a compelling argument.

[Cloudedmind]

Did I miss something? How exactly is Ruko a bitch. Far as I can all she's done so far is play the game people have asked her to play and enjoy it.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Did I miss something? How exactly is Ruko a bitch. Far as I can all she's done so far is play the game people have asked her to play and enjoy it.

I think it's primarily because of how Ruko was willing to be so quick in deciding to throw matches just to let the opponent win and get closer to getting their wishes without really respecting their own efforts.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

I think it's primarily because of how Ruko was willing to be so quick in deciding to throw matches just to let the opponent win and get closer to getting their wishes without really respecting their own efforts.

Yeah, and I'm not seeing how that makes her a bitch though. Yes, I would want them to do their best, but I'm not going to hate on them if they don't.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

You mean in one match you have someone initiating a match against someone she believes is a weak prey and flat out says that's the only reason she is playing against her, and in the other match we get /two/ people making a match because they are too proud to not do one, and both try to hurt the others and believe their way is the only way?

Akira coerced Yuzuki into a match that she initially wanted absolutely nothing to do with. Akira hounded Yuzuki constantly to the point that Akira came off as borderline creepy and obsessive.

So to say that the Akira/Yuzuki match is a lot fairer is honestly a bit ridiculous. Akira coerced/hounded her way into getting the match, and then she engaged in one-sided trash-talking against Yuzuki almost the entire match. The only reason Yuzuki tried to hurt Akira is because of how Akira enraged Yuzuki with invasive mind-reading followed up by trash-talking.


The Hitoe/Ruko match was far less a matter of coercion. There was far less disrespect here. Hitoe's one comment about viewing Ruko as a weak opponent is nothing compared to Akira's almost constant trash-talking. Besides, Hitoe apologized twice for that comment (once out of simple politeness, a second time out of complete sincerity). What has Akira apologized for?

I'm honestly amazed at how much some people here are defending Akira. This is clearly not a nice person. I don't know what more the anime could do to put her in a negative light (her facial expressions when angry were almost cheesy in how over-the-top they were ). Her personality is pretty clearly supposed to come across as ugly (in contrast to her attractive physical appearance). The only question for me is if she'll eventually become sympathetic (and likely redeemed in some way), or if she'll just go down good and hard at some point as a modern day aesop. Probably the former, since that strikes me as more Okada's style, but I'm not 100% confident here.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Just using her card destruction isn't good enough.

Why not? In both of her two matches, she seemed to me to be winning them comfortably before she engaged in the invasive mind-reading. In both cases, it struck me as a needless adding of insult to injury. It struck me as needlessly cruel and mean-spirited. If you think differently, I'd like to know a concrete reason why.

It's more complex than that.

There may be more to it than that, but I am pretty confident that is part of it, at least.

It's about being honest with yourself. And I think you're right, considering Yuzuki's constant denial.

It doesn't have to be an either or. It can be about being honest with yourself and morals.

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

"Personal responsibility" a widely held belief that verges on a form of religion in human society.

Because without personal responsibility, how do you hold people accountable for their mistakes and misdeeds? And if you don't hold people accountable for such things, then how do you influence them to do better, or become better people? There's not always proverbial carrots available to provide incentives.

You might be right that people can change others more than they can change themselves, but part of changing others is often holding others to a higher standard of personal responsibility than what they're currently doing. In some cases, you have to convince others to start taking ownership of their lives and stop blaming everybody else for their problems.

In Yuzuki's case, it could be argued that she needs to stop blaming the whole world for her unrequited love, and take the initiative to actually talk things over openly with her brother, whatever comes of that.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why not? In both of her two matches, she seemed to me to be winning them comfortably before she engaged in the invasive mind-reading.

That's not true. In fact, Yuzuki was actually winning the match until she lost her cool, despite losing a few cards. Then she lost off-screen, supposedly due to letting her feelings get the better of her. That doesn't mean Akira doesn't enjoy hurting others. She clearly does. But that's why I said the problem is her attitude.

In both cases, it struck me as a needless adding of insult to injury. It struck me as needlessly cruel and mean-spirited. If you think differently, I'd like to know a concrete reason why.

It was cruel and mean-spirited, yeah, but not needless.

There may be more to it than that, but I am pretty confident that is part of it, at least.

I'm no so sure myself. For starter, the whole atmosphere of their match was pleasing due to compatibility. Hitoe's a green player and Ruko's a white one. Together they made a warm yellow. That's a nice detail but that's about it. Things become thematically relevant when Ruko starts to contemplate deliberately losing the match. I'm not sure if that's all this scene was about, but it definitely was the main point of it.

It doesn't have to be an either or. It can be about being honest with yourself and morals.

It's Okada. I'm not sure she has it in her to explore more than one main theme. But let's wait and see. It's okay if I'm proved wrong. But for now, I don't see the story exploring any moral issue. Akira's a jerk, yes, but that's a problem of her attitude more than her actions, and Arkeus is probably right that it relates to her not being honest with herself somehow.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not true. In fact, Yuzuki was actually winning the match until she lost her cool, despite losing a few cards.

Do you have some sort of screenshot or character quote demonstrating that? Because I don't recall getting the impression that Yuzuki was ever in the lead of her match.

Granted, this has been one of the real weaknesses of the show - It doesn't show actual quantitative performance anywhere near as good as some sports/games shows do (like Saki or Yu-Gi-Oh). It's certainly possible that I missed something, but in both of Akira's matches, I had the impression she was dominating throughout. That was certainly the vibe I got from both her and her opponent in both of her matches.

Then she lost off-screen, supposedly due to letting her feelings get the better of her. That doesn't mean Akira doesn't enjoy hurting others. She clearly does. But that's why I said the problem is her attitude.

What does her attitude have to do with the harm her invasive mind-reading and trash-talking causes? Her intent changes little here - It's her actual actions and words that make the difference here. I don't see how it would make it much better if she was just coldly doing this rather than enjoying it - The fact is she's very invasive in mind-reading people's innermost desires just to crudely insult them about it, and that's not an essential part of the WIXOSS game.

Edit: Heck, now that I think more about it, do we really know if she's enjoying it or not? She might just be a good actress for all we know. Given how well she hides her anger, that could well be the case.

It was cruel and mean-spirited, yeah, but not needless.

No, it's needless. There's little reason to think she couldn't win these matches without it.

I'm no so sure myself. For starter, the whole atmosphere of their match was pleasing due to compatibility.

And you don't think this could be symbolically reflecting their compatible personalities? Unlike how Akira's personality is pretty incompatible with any opponent she's faced so far, because Akira's not showing them even the basic level of respect that should be shown to other human beings in general? Just because you're playing a game doesn't mean that basic human decency should go completely out the window. Akira's invasive mind-reading of innermost desires goes against just basic human decency, in my view.

Akira's a jerk, yes, but that's a problem of her attitude more than her actions,

I disagree. It's her actions that cause the needless harm.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Do you have some sort of screenshot or character quote demonstrating that? Because I don't recall getting the impression that Yuzuki was ever in the lead of her match.

Yuzuki got in actual attacks on Akira's LRIG while Akira only destroyed two minor cards (level 1 IIRC) from Yuzuki. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who is winning at this point. Then Akira gets serious, uses her psychologically-disrupting powers and seemingly starts winning (and I say seemingly because that happens off-screen).

What does her attitude have to do with the harm her invasive mind-reading and trash-talking causes? Her intent changes little here.

The point is that her powers are the tools that were given to her to play the game. You can't asked her to stop using part of her powers while everyone else gets to fight at full power. You're crazy if you think that would be fair. That's why using those powers isn't the problem. At least not her problem since the players don't get to choose their LRIG cards as far as I can tell. You get what you get, and you have to make the best of it. The problem is that she enjoy hurting others.

No, it's needless. There's little reason to think she couldn't win these matches without it.

You must be watching a different series.

And you don't think this could be symbolically reflecting their compatible personalities?

The color comes from their LRIG cards. They have compatible cards. Whether this has a deeper meaning is yet to be seen. I'm not discarding the possibility, but it's too early to tell what it means, if indeed it means something relevant.

I disagree. It's her actions that cause the needless harm.

Then let's agree to disagree. I'm not in the mood for a long discussion anyway.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by NinjaRealist

I think we have actually have more power to change other people than to change ourselves because the decisions we make for ourselves are so tied up in personal bias that it's all but impossible to extricate ourselves from our physical/emotional needs/desires.

...

"Personal responsibility" a widely held belief that verges on a form of religion in human society. But I'm not the type of person who changes my viewpoint just because the majority disagrees with me. I'll only change my views if someone else can change them with a compelling argument.

But based on your logic, we should have more power to change your mind about this than you do?

I will agree it is rare to find people who can step back and examine even some of their personal bias.

[Key Board]

I THINK he's saying that his circumstances made him adopt that belief, and there's nothing he can do himself to change that belief, because people have very little power to change themselves.

so using this theory, what Akari did was pretty nasty, but it can't blame it on her since she can't change herself.

Here's my own take on this.
Everyone needs a personal devil, because blaming it on something else is much more easier than blaming it on yourself.
I think characters of this show needs the card game to address their own problem, because they are unable to face it directly. They need some kind of proxy. They need an unrelated goal.. a scapegoat. A devil to strike down.
Does Hitoe really need the card game to make friends? Or is the cardgame simply giving her a concrete non-related goal to address her own problems, because confronting it directly is too threatening?

on another note

did anyone think that Akira's lrig has a personality that resembles Iona, and in reverse, it seems that Iona's lrig has a personality that resembles Akari

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yuzuki got in actual attacks on Akira's LRIG while Akira only destroyed two minor cards (level 1 IIRC) from Yuzuki.

Yup. I even got the impression Yuzuki planned it that way, knowing Aki would force a discard early in the game.