[Manga] Naruto Chapter 537 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

"Only"?
Those are catastophic looses, in a single day of battle the Alliance lost more than 2 hidden villages worth of ninja. Madara's forces on the other hand is only really made of... 3 people!

Technically 4 with Sasuke, and maybe even 5 if you count Zetsu twice .

That being said, just how far away are Kirabi and Naruto? Whilst using Kyuubi-Mode earlier, Naruto moved so fast that even seasoned veterans Kisame and Kirabi couldn't see him, yet now Naruto is seriously lagging behind.

btw, was anyone else sufficiently amazed by Kitsuchi's technique. What is it with these Iwa-nin and their extremely destructive techniques...(addmittedly Deidara's is still the best pure destruction move seen in the series)?

[Fran~]

I wouldn't say that only Iwa have extremely destructive techniques...

[Frenchie]

Yeah I think Naruto probably can go a lot faster, but he probably wants to stick with Killer-Bee and -he- shows no indication that he's going Bijuu mode to get there faster.

Going to be interesting to see Raikage and Tsunade prevent those two from going into battle. Shikaku leading the armies will also be interesting.

Didn't seem to me like Shikamaru was using a variant of the Shadow Neck bind, just looked like regular Kage Mane to me. Also I don't know if that really stops Madara from warping. If it does, that's a great alternative to ONE BILLION EXPLODING KUNAI NO JUTSU.

On another note, however, it does look like Kage Mane can stretch over water. Which is interesting.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I wouldn't say that only Iwa have extremely destructive techniques...

I never claimed they did (ex: Amaterasu and FSR not to mention Shinra Tensai, etc), but they do seem to have some way over-the-top ninjutsus that they can throw out willy-nilly. We've only really seen 3 Iwa-nin in action, and each one has been pretty damn impressive (from Kitsuchi's recent actions, to Deidara's amazing clay bombs, and Oonki literally moving an entire island (albeit a Turtle Island)).

[Fran~]

Those 3 Iwa-nin are indeed elite ones... Oonoki knew Deidara pretty well, her granddaughter called him with familiar honorifics (nii-san? IIRC), and the third one is Oonoki's son... and we saw her daughter's power when Kabuto attacked the island and kidnapped Yamato, that makes four Iwa-nin.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by kirisute_gomen

He's not gonna use Gin and Kin instead of Naruto, is he? Could Madara use Gin/Kin as a source for the Kyuubi's power instead of Naruto's Kyuubi?

i think he is. if he only needs the kyuubi and hachibi's chakra then he will try to make do with what he's got. it might not be exactly as he had planned but if he could make it work to his benefit then why not? i think that's what he's thinking right now. as for why he's rushing, perhaps he's running out of time. maybe his whole existence depends on it. if tobi really is madara, then maybe his ultimate goal is to revive his body and he can only do that with the completion of the bijuu chakras. some say that the body he's in right now is not really his but just a copy, a clone or even some form of illusion, not real at all. maybe there's a time limit to its use, kinda like oro's bodies. i don't know, i'm just speculating here.

There you have... Naruto is the manga with most deaths ever!... learn something Kubo

naturally, naruto should have more deaths than bleach considering the amount of people who went to war. the ones who went to war in bleach were merely a handful compared to the number of ninja and samurai that participated in this war. sadly though, it doesn't feel like they've lost that much. it's even hard to believe that all that fighting happened in just a day. it felt more like a week. still, the 40,000 death toll is just a number. we didn't see that or at least the manga didn't clearly show so it seems contrived. kishi just threw us that number to have us believe that it's a real war. but without major losses, i still can't accept that. i still feel no urgency in this war. no real concern. hopefully, madara's plan could change that.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

...The Alliance, unaware of the location of Madara's base, caught by surprise by the Zetsu army travelling underground while Madara went to the secret island and captured personally Bee and Naruto putting an end to the story with Madara as the new god of this world.
Kabuto is a hero when you think about it.

You assume a logically thinking Madara
If he was like that he would have never announced the 4th ninja war giving the alliance the time to make plans and hide Naruto, etc. And he would have never said that he wants to stage a "fated" Naruto vs Sasuke fight.
Even now when Zetsu tells him about Naruto and KillerBee he goes against the alliance instead of teleporting all his forces to fight Naruto and KillerBee.

[Ushio the Omega]

22 chapters of battle and 40,000 "deaths" though I wonder if losses would be more accurate? since the 40,000 could be for deaths and injuries but I don't read japanese so it's just a guess.

Still better than the Uk's losses at the battle of the somme in one day of 60,000 men.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You assume a logically thinking Madara
If he was like that he would have never announced the 4th ninja war giving the alliance the time to make plans and hide Naruto, etc. And he would have never said that he wants to stage a "fated" Naruto vs Sasuke fight.
Even now when Zetsu tells him about Naruto and KillerBee he goes against the alliance instead of teleporting all his forces to fight Naruto and KillerBee.

No I assume that Madara would have done what he said he was going to do when he learned Naruto's location before Kabuto convinced him otherwise.
I think you also missed the point of Madara's declaration of war, it was a perfectly logical decision and he explained his motive a few chapters later.
Madara counted on the fact that the Alliance would hide the Jinchuuriki, he thought that he didn't have enough man-power to take the risk of trying to capture them where they could be helped by their villages so he put the Kage in a situation where they thought they had no choice but hide them while at the same time he had Kisame in hidding with them so he could know all about it.
With one speech he made sure that those he wanted would be stacked at the same location -that would be soon known to him- and away from help.
All that for the cost of stating a motive that was useless to his ennemies since they already knew he was after the Bijuu.

That was a pretty good plan and it could have worked just fine without Kabuto's interference.

Originally Posted by james0246

Technically 4 with Sasuke, and maybe even 5 if you count Zetsu twice .

Yeah but I only counted the ones who have actually dealt something to the alliance so far.

Originally Posted by Ushio the Omega

Still better than the Uk's losses at the battle of the somme in one day of 60,000 men.

Not if you compare the size of their armies.

[Ulquiorra]

So A and Tsunade are now wasting their time trying to stop Kirabi and Naruto. Although they don't know that Madara doesn't need them. The strategy should now be to let them fight.

Plot-wise, Madara's substitute plan has to fail. He might need to capture Naruto and Kirabi. We know the world won't end tomorrow. Something has to stop him. Or course Kishi could have Sasuke or Kabuto do it for the plot twist.

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Didn't seem to me like Shikamaru was using a variant of the Shadow Neck bind, just looked like regular Kage Mane to me. Also I don't know if that really stops Madara from warping. If it does, that's a great alternative to ONE BILLION EXPLODING KUNAI NO JUTSU.

On another note, however, it does look like Kage Mane can stretch over water. Which is interesting.

Interesting if this becomes important or it was just hype for Shikamaru. If Madara could phase out of the kagemange, then why didn't he do it like he did with the other ninja that attacked him? He needed to use the Gedo Mazo statue to break free. Plus why the hell would Madara consider Shikamaru a worthy opponent or almost seem to recognize and respect him in another translation? Villains like Madara are usually pretty damn arrogant.

Shika's story in this war should end after he saves Temari or something, but Kishi could have foreshadowed his value against Madara.

[Hunter]

It didn't stop him to be intangible since he had Gedo Maso stomp on him too and he respected the fact that Shika understood immediately what he was after.

[Haak]

It's hard to feel that the Alliance have lost half of their forces when pretty much all the characters with faces and names have survived. Kishimoto could've done better than this.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

i think he is. if he only needs the kyuubi and hachibi's chakra then he will try to make do with what he's got. it might not be exactly as he had planned but if he could make it work to his benefit then why not? i think that's what he's thinking right now. as for why he's rushing, perhaps he's running out of time. maybe his whole existence depends on it.

Doubt it. A lot seem to believe that Madara has decided he doesn't need Naruto and Killer Bee anymore. The thing is, Madara didn't decide to take this course of action until he learned that Naruto and Killer Bee finally exposed themselves. The story gives every indication that Madara was biding his time and planning on waiting for Zetsu to deliver the feudal lords so he would have hostages, but then Naruto and Bee came out on their own. Why would he suddenly decide that they weren't worth the trouble when they were finally in his reach?

I believe this a lure. Madara hasn't run out of time or realized he doesn't need Naruto and Bee anymore. He's upping the ante. By activating his plan early with the parts of the Kyuubi and Hachibi chakra he can make the alliance believe he's already won, which will eventually lead to their total defeat. But to complete his victory, he'll need Naruto and Bee.

Originally Posted by Hunter

That was a pretty good plan et it could have worked just fine without Kabuto's interference.

Good bet Kabuto's probably aware of this.

[MinuSeveN]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I believe this a lure. Madara hasn't run out of time or realized he doesn't need Naruto and Bee anymore. He's upping the ante. By activating his plan early with the parts of the Kyuubi and Hachibi chakra he can make the alliance believe he's already won, which will eventually lead to their total defeat. But to complete his victory, he'll need Naruto and Bee.

He sounds a bit more desperate, he can't afford to fail. I think he went after Kin and Gin because for him, now, every little bit counts, he won't risk not having even that tiny little bit of Kyuubi's chakra. His plan probably has quite a few weak points that he knows about but can't compensate for. So he's confident but not villain-overconfident-laughter-of-doom.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Good bet Kabuto's probably aware of this.

Kabuto knows Madara knows that he knows Madara's plan isn't completely foolproof. And Madara knows this too.

[DeDe]

It seems Kishi might be setting up for a Tsunade vs Naruto and A vs. KB fight. Tsunade should have one more major fight left and I hope it is not against Naruto.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Plus why the hell would Madara consider Shikamaru a worthy opponent or almost seem to recognize and respect him in another translation? Villains like Madara are usually pretty damn arrogant.

Becuase he got the shadow bind on him when he was distracted. And he understood his plan. Compare Shikamaru to the fodder ninja that just attacked Madara. So Madara respected him and knew he was dealing with someone elite.

Originally Posted by Hunter

It didn't stop him to be intangible since he had Gedo Maso stomp on him too.

Madara could have done this since he knew Shikamaru would be forced to break the shadow bind and then he could turn intangible through the foot.

It made very little sense for him not to phase through the shadow bind since he just did it with two fodder. Why use the statue?

[MidnightViper88]

Originally Posted by Neji112

So 40 000 no name genin or chunin have died. For an author who was willing to kill Asuma, The 3rd Hokage and Jiraiya, I'm surprised he's so unwilling to kill off a few named tertiary characters.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It didn't feel like 40,000 people died, in the manga [...] but it's just wrong to kill 40,000 ninjas out of 70,000 and save all the named characters that were fighting on the front lines, it's simply unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Nite-Wing

Yeah you really need to feel the casualties but I guess that can't happen unless a named character gets killed along with them.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's hard to feel that the Alliance have lost half of their forces when pretty much all the characters with faces and names have survived. Kishimoto could've done better than this.

So looking at all this, I had to ask myself, what's the best way to re-write that old adage to be relevant to this story? "The death of one named protagonist is a tragedy, the death of 40,000 unnamed shinobi is a statistic"...

Cynical, but I can't help but think too many of you are taking this mindset, discrediting the fact that half of the allied shinobi fighting force has just been wiped out (Albeit also taking half of the Zetsu clones with them) only because none of the named higher-tier and important characters have been killed...

Is that a little awkward? I'll admit that it it would take a whole assload worth of good luck and then some to survive being in a front line/field commander position while everyone else around you is dying...It's realistically plausible but tactically impossible to achieve, and suspension of disbelief is definitely necessary in fiction when limelights are shone on some characters everywhere they go, especially if they would be high-profile targets made valuable dead...

But you know, you can't forget that this is still war...A whooooole lotta people still died; 40,000 dead because of the notorious actions of four people, being Madara, Sasuke, Kabuto, and Zetsu (Person or monster, singular or plural, take your pick)...And it looks like even if for a short time, Madara's going to make a lot of what happened in the war seemingly have happened in vein with a half-assed continuation of his plan...Oh, and did anyone remember that the stakes of this war would be the fate of the world for either absolute control or freedom? That's some pretty high stakes and I'm surprised more people aren't dead than who have already died...



Or I have another idea: Kishimoto's using numbers that are too large for people to imagine, especially numbers for tangible things, unlike power levels...It's a stretch dependent on context and interpretation, but it's also another possible audience reaction...

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Doubt it. A lot seem to believe that Madara has decided he doesn't need Naruto and Killer Bee anymore. The thing is, Madara didn't decide to take this course of action until he learned that Naruto and Killer Bee finally exposed themselves. The story gives every indication that Madara was biding his time and planning on waiting for Zetsu to deliver the feudal lords so he would have hostages, but then Naruto and Bee came out on their own. Why would he suddenly decide that they weren't worth the trouble when they were finally in his reach?

I believe this a lure. Madara hasn't run out of time or realized he doesn't need Naruto and Bee anymore. He's upping the ante. By activating his plan early with the parts of the Kyuubi and Hachibi chakra he can make the alliance believe he's already won, which will eventually lead to their total defeat. But to complete his victory, he'll need Naruto and Bee.

I think Madara's Moon's Eye plan is just a temporary ruse, given that Madara went out to the battlefield for a "substitution" when the real deals were already out in the open...You're right in that it might give the alliance a feeling of defeat, though it could be either legitimate or exaggerated morale, depending on how they interpret the intelligence of what they know in real-life time...At the same time, with such little chakra representative of the Hachibi and Kyuubi, it wouldn't be sufficient to cast a genjutsu on the entire world, or if it does it wouldn't be as strong and all-controlling, and Kabuto definitely knows this...Madara is probably fully aware of the situation too, although I think the reason why he's going along with it anyway is that such a large-scale yet temporary genjutsu would still be enough incapacitate a large amount of the shinobi forces from acting in full-force resistance to Madara (Or someone else), allowing him to capture Naruto and Killer Bee with relatively greater ease, and fully completing the tailed beast chakra collection...I say relative, since I doubt that the genjutsu would be strong enough to overcome two jinchurikkis, and Naruto's own Kyuubi mode would be a good enough defense (Should be learn to be more proficient with it between now and then)...

If that's what I think what will happen ends up happening, and if it ends up going that far, anyway...Still a lot of variables between A and Tsunade, especially with Kabuto, and who knows where Sasuke will come into play again and how...



I still like how the story is finally pushing forward, though, even if there are still a few device holes left still untouched...

[james0246]

^Madara's mission seems to be complete control of the world. While it is relatively easy to control a world where everyone is dead (that's why America owns the Moon ), that doesn't seem to be Madara's desire. So, his use of a temporary, or only full-force for a specific region, genjutsu could simply be a means of preventing further destruction to the humans he wishes to control. Consequently, his short term solution is perfect for what he needs.

Personally, I kind of hope Madara wins the war. If Kishimoto wants a Part III, Madara winning the war, but Naruto escaping as the sole resistance, could make for some truly epic storytelling...

[Arti]

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

So looking at all this, I had to ask myself, what's the best way to re-write that old adage to be relevant to this story? "The death of one named protagonist is a tragedy, the death of 40,000 unnamed shinobi is a statistic"...

Cynical, but I can't help but think too many of you are taking this mindset, discrediting the fact that half of the allied shinobi fighting force has just been wiped out (Albeit also taking half of the Zetsu clones with them) only because none of the named higher-tier and important characters have been killed...

Is that a little awkward? I'll admit that it it would take a whole assload worth of good luck and then some to survive being in a front line/field commander position while everyone else around you is dying...It's realistically plausible but tactically impossible to achieve, and suspension of disbelief is definitely necessary in fiction when limelights are shone on some characters everywhere they go, especially if they would be high-profile targets made valuable dead...

But you know, you can't forget that this is still war...A whooooole lotta people still died; 40,000 dead because of the notorious actions of four people, being Madara, Sasuke, Kabuto, and Zetsu (Person or monster, singular or plural, take your pick)...And it looks like even if for a short time, Madara's going to make a lot of what happened in the war seemingly have happened in vein with a half-assed continuation of his plan...Oh, and did anyone remember that the stakes of this war would be the fate of the world for either absolute control or freedom? That's some pretty high stakes and I'm surprised more people aren't dead than who have already died...

This isn't real life, and real people aren't dying. If that were the case, then yes, 40,000 dead would be a tragedy. But if 40,000 fictional characters whom I've never even heard of are dead, why should I care? I would care more about one dead named character (e.g. a Shikamaru, Kakashi, Gaara, etc. or even a relatively minor one like Lee or Neji) than 40,000 nameless ones.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No I assume that Madara would have done what he said he was going to do when he learned Naruto's location before Kabuto convinced him otherwise.
I think you also missed the point of Madara's declaration of war, it was a perfectly logical decision and he explained his motive a few chapters later.
Madara counted on the fact that the Alliance would hide the Jinchuuriki, he thought that he didn't have enough man-power to take the risk of trying to capture them where they could be helped by their villages so he put the Kage in a situation where they thought they had no choice but hide them while at the same time he had Kisame in hidding with them so he could know all about it.
With one speech he made sure that those he wanted would be stacked at the same location -that would be soon known to him- and away from help.
All that for the cost of stating a motive that was useless to his ennemies since they already knew he was after the Bijuu.

That was a pretty good plan et it could have worked just fine without Kabuto's interference.

Sure the plan was not bad, but why bother to make all this war when he could have made a better plan knowing his own powers. Kishimoto just neglects some of his powers when it's convenient for the plot:
1, he can teleport anywhere, and he can also bring people with himself, that gives him the time advantage. He teleported to Naruto when only Kakashi and Yamato were guarding him. He could have brought Zetsu and Kisame, and even Sasuke if he wanted to. Why didn't he help Kisame against KillerBee and teleport away before the raikage arrives (and why telling the raikage that Bee was not captured after he learned that raikage thinks Bee was captured).
2, he can use izanagi, why not use to capture the final 2 demons or to kill Kabuto before he can use his summons

For me Madara's plan sounds like an overly complicated plan made by Tom to capture Jerry that is obviously a failure

But if i don't want to think about is as plot hole that was made because Kishimoto wants to show all of the characters improve (Choji, etc.) then i can think of this as a plan not only driven by logic but also by emotions. Madara is not a machine, he has some emotions that drive him, he made that quite clear when he announced to Naruto and Kakashi that he will stage a big Naruto vs Sasuke battle.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Arti

This isn't real life, and real people aren't dying. If that were the case, then yes, 40,000 dead would be a tragedy. But if 40,000 fictional characters whom I've never even heard of are dead, why should I care? I would care more about one dead named character (e.g. a Shikamaru, Kakashi, Gaara, etc. or even a relatively minor one like Lee or Neji) than 40,000 nameless ones.

That depends on how you view it.

The point of all those dead is to show the seriousness of war, etc. Killing unnamed characters are fine for that.

Killing of named characters are usually for plot or drama related purposes. All the revived zombies do that fine enough.