Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I just noticed something. Not that this explicitly proves anything with regards to the rest of the discussion, but this should put to rest once and for all whether 'resurrecting someone' is within the bounds of what a wish can make possible.

In episode 10, after Madoka dies, Kyuubey's entrance is directly after Homura makes a specific statement: "Rather than saving me, I wish that you [i.e. Madoka] lived on." And of course, Kyuubey's entrance is directly followed by his usual sales pitch where he says "In exchange for your soul I can give you that power." Of course, what Homura ended up wishing for was something other than Madoka's direct resurrection, but Homura's suggestion of that was the direct cause of Kyuubey's appearance.

So yeah, it's final. Kyuubey/Puella Magi wishes can resurrect people, no question about it.

Whether Kyuube can ressurect fallen witches/MGs not withstanding, saying that he can simply because he appeared in response to a potential business deal is a bit pushing it...

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Whether Kyuube can ressurect fallen witches/MGs not withstanding, saying that he can simply because he appeared in response to a potential business deal is a bit pushing it...

No, not just Kyuubey appearing. His dialogue too. "I can give you that power", where 'that' refers to Homura's statement "I wish that you lived on". It's pretty explicit.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

No, not just Kyuubey appearing. His dialogue too. "I can give you that power", where 'that' refers to Homura's statement "I wish that you lived on". It's pretty explicit.

Agreed.

Especially when you factor in how, 10 episodes into this anime, Kyubey has not yet said anything to seriously suggest that there's any real limitation on what wishes can be realized.


This does beg the question of why Homura (in Timeline 1) didn't just wish to bring Madoka (and/or Mami) back from the dead. Seems a lot easier to me than starting a time loop...

We know the real reason for this (it's necessary for this story to work), but the in-canon reason for this might suggest something about Homura. What that is, I don't know.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This does beg the question of why Homura (in Timeline 1) didn't just wish to bring Madoka (and/or Mami) back from the dead. Seems a lot easier to me than starting a time loop...

We know the real reason for this (it's necessary for this story to work), but the in-canon reason for this might suggest something about Homura. What that is, I don't know.

If there's one thing Kyubey is good at, it's making his sales pitch when he knows the girls aren't usually in the right frame of mind to respond to him (Mami was dying, Sayaka was thinking of her feelings, Kyoko wanted to help her father somehow, and Madoka nearly agreed because she was so concerned for Sayaka's condition). It's possible that his timing in making the offer, considering what Homura had just been through and what she was feeling at that moment, made her wish come out as "I wish to protect Madoka" instead of "I wish Madoka was still alive".

Of course, it's just as likely that Homura wanted to be someone Madoka could depend on. She's certainly become that in this timeline.

[Snork]

^ not only that, but she's basically fulfilled Madoka's request from TL3. Madoka has been "saved" from making a clueless mistake, and after all she's gone through she knows more about the system than in any previous timeline (not to mention that both Madoka and Homura probably remain the most informed Puellae Magi in the vicinity or the world, even). However, that also makes Homura's goal garder to reach - now, if Madoka does decide to become a Puella Magi, she will do it being aware of the outcome (which, as was already mentioned, strongly suggests destroying herself with WN as the only passable option), there is little chance of talking her out of it. And the odds of another loop entirely depend on whether Homura herself survives the current one or not. Kinda creepy to realize that her odyssey could have ended long ago, seeing how many witch fights she indulges in. And since death/witchhood wraps up the contract, I really doubt her wish's mechanics would classify her demise as a factor for automatical rewind. This makes my presentiments about the events of episode 11 even grimmer...

Then again, there are more positive things to hope for. I agree with you about Kyuubey's timing skills (and originally Homura hardly knew anything about the system, including how wishes may work, so she might have not even deem ressurection possible). Now, however, we have a candidate for witch-hunting that is fully aware of what it is all about and what she's putting on the line in case of contracting. I believe that if Madoka has a wish to make, she will not buy any excuses. Thus, things like resurrection, incorruptible Soul Gems, reconstructing the souls of witches or demolishing the system as a whole - they all depend on the authors' will alone.
And while the interview mentioned that this show does not work in favour of miracle tropes, it doesn't omit the probability of miracles per se. Even among the known wishes, we have Sayaka's one at the very least - while it ended LESS than well for herself, Kamijou can play the violin again and may be well on his way to fame as a future great musician. The sum of it is bittersweet, and so will be the outcome of any wish Madoka makes, I suspect. Like the said resurrection: if the wish doesn't process BOTH the girls' lives and their status, they'll be back to square one of the board game that would give Jumanji a run for its money. And expect Kyuubey to be EXTREMELY vague about this, since such a development would net him up to three (or up to four, depending on how episode 11 will play out) potential witches again. Some backup in case Madoka prefers death over witchhood again.／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

[revive4563]

Congrats for episode 11 and 12.
But actually, the lost enthusiasm for Madoka Magica by this blank accelerated entropy.

[Snork]

Yeah, I would also prefer episode 11 next week and episode 12 a week later. But atm I'm too happy to complain.

[Liddo-kun]

／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼: Make a contract with me and become a magical girl! You wish to watch the final two episodes right?

*just kidding

[mistyken]

Just finished the first 10 eps today. Seeing many different ppl's input on QB's power and homura's time travel capability makes me wanna share a bit of my thought as well.

First of all, i think that QB's power is not limitless, at least not to the extend that he resurrect the dead which is something that he has not done so far. Could he do it if he wants, we don't know. But one thing we are sure: he could not reverse entropy and solve the problem of 2nd thermodynamic. All he could do is harvest the emotional energy of the MG and use it to reduce the level of entropy of the universe. He said it during his chat with madoka that the emotional power of an otome to be the most potent they've found, something that could act outside of any law of nature. So, i don't think he's lying when he tells madoka that she could be anything she wants.

That leads me to my 2nd point which is homura's ability of time travel. Is it granded by QB or is it something from herself, i would vouch for the latter. We know that slowing the level of entropy requires a huge amount of energy, but turning back time which in essence is reversing the progress of entropy in the other direction will require an unfathomable amount of energy. I don't think QB can provide that given that their civilization couldn't even break par with the current entropy level. So the only viable explanation in this is the power is from homura herself since QB had stated b4 that the emotional power of otome could defiance the very law of nature which includes the law that govern time.

QB's role is mainly that of a facilitator: he helps the girls, with their technology, to materialize their soul into physical form which energy could be transform into our world, then shepherds them into sacrificing themselves thru desperation so the maximum amount of energy could be obtained. To meet that end, he will have to perform a few simple miracle to buy their trust. The miracles we see so far mostly involve saving someone or turning someone's mind. I argue that an advanced civilization could turn those up easily, but certainly not on the bigger stuff.

In the very end, QB needs help and the help comes within the MG. He tries to fake it, but the ball has always been in the MG's court, they just didn't know it yet.

[Snork]

First of all, i think that QB's power is not limitless

But the most speculated point is, it doesn't have to do anything with HIS power. He's not a magic user, he's just a conductor. The potential of magic itself and its limits are currently unknown.
But I generally agree with your point - Kyuubey can't apply the magical girl technology to anyone, he needs specific individuals with potential. Whether this potential is calculated in terms of magic or emotional energy has yet to be clarified, too - but without all these girls the system really wouldn't work.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Snork

But the most speculated point is, it doesn't have to do anything with HIS power. He's not a magic user, he's just a conductor. The potential of magic itself and its limits are currently unknown.
But I generally agree with your point - Kyuubey can't apply the magical girl technology to anyone, he needs specific individuals with potential. Whether this potential is calculated in terms of magic or emotional energy has yet to be clarified, too - but without all these girls the system really wouldn't work.

Magic and emotional energy could be going hand in hand here. After all, there's something to be said for the fact that Madoka is both the strongest Puella Magi and has the most emotional energy to offer.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Snork

Whether this potential is calculated in terms of magic or emotional energy has yet to be clarified, too - but without all these girls the system really wouldn't work.

Emotions are emotions, not energy. What Kyuubey does, is to turn emotions into energy, as he explains in episode 9. This energy he creates out of emotions with his technology (through the contract) is energy that transcends the laws of the universe, as he states in episode 9, and so can be used to stall Entropy. This energy then, is what he calls "magic".

Magic, in the Madoka verse, is emotion (normal, plain emotion) turned into energy that isn't bond to the natural laws, by Kuubey's technology. Energy that isn't bond to these laws can do miracles, and beyond, like warping those very laws (ex: travel through time).

So anyone can be a magical girl/boy woman/men. Even other species beside humans. Like he said, he choses human girls because they're more hyper-emotional.

Indeed, Madoka's potential is most likely the fact that she's the most hypersensitive character in the series. She's so emotional, that if Kyuubey turned all that emotion into magic, she'd have a ton of it.

[mistyken]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Emotions are emotions, not energy. What Kyuubey does, is to turn emotions into energy, as he explains in episode 9. This energy he creates out of emotions with his technology (through the contract) is energy that transcends the laws of the universe, as he states in episode 9, and so can be used to stall Entropy. This energy then, is what he calls "magic".

Magic, in the Madoka verse, is emotion (normal, plain emotion) turned into energy that isn't bond to the natural laws, by Kuubey's technology. Energy that isn't bond to these laws can do miracles, and beyond, like warping those very laws (ex: travel through time).

So anyone can be a magical girl/boy woman/men. Even other species beside humans. Like he said, he choses human girls because they're more hyper-emotional.

Indeed, Madoka's potential is most likely the fact that she's the most hypersensitive character in the series. She's so emotional, that if Kyuubey turned all that emotion into magic, she'd have a ton of it.

yes exactly. as for madoka, i think she has most potential not just for her being hypersensitive, but also her willingness for selfless sacrifice. like QB said, their wish also come into play when it comes to determining their ability. like in eps 8, she almost made a pack with QB just on the ground of saving sayaka. just like homura said, she always put other ahead of herself.

i just hope that she won't be using her magical power like Athena in Saint Seiya and start rezzing all the dead ppl, then it would turn into a pretty silly show...

[Laurie]

She should let Madoka wish that Kyuubey never existed the happy end

Edit: or let another girl wish it lol..like Hitomi.. and wish that Walpurgius will never come/exist eh whatever :P..

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Laurie

She should let Madoka wish that Kyuubey never existed the happy end

Edit: or let another girl wish it lol..like Hitomi.. and wish that Walpurgius will never come/exist eh whatever :P..

Even if she did, she would still become a PM. No QB = no witches. No witches = no Grief Seeds. No Grief Seeds = eventual witches from PMs.

In order for a normal girl to truly understand WpgNgt, they would have to experience it, else, there will be no emotional context to make the wish happen. By then, it'd be too late.

Originally Posted by mistyken

yes exactly. as for madoka, i think she has most potential not just for her being hypersensitive, but also her willingness for selfless sacrifice. like QB said, their wish also come into play when it comes to determining their ability. like in eps 8, she almost made a pack with QB just on the ground of saving sayaka. just like homura said, she always put other ahead of herself. .

And what about Sayaka? She sure ended up on the weaker end of the scale, despite using her wish for that boy.

[Snork]

She's really not the strongest, but what would she shape out like with time and enough battle experience? Her swordplay and extra fast recovery are not to be written off that easily, IMHO. Kyuubey made an implication of her weakness, but just the current one (might as well have been another gambit of his: you won't hold for long on your own, so let your friend become Meguca).

[GDB]

Sayaka was obviously meant to be a team-player. She's the classic "tank" for a group, but she chose to go solo and caused her own downfall.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by GDB

Sayaka was obviously meant to be a team-player. She's the classic "tank" for a group, but she chose to go solo and caused her own downfall.

I agree for the most part; of them all, she's definitely the tank. But there's a case to be made for the fact that with time and experience she'd probably be perfectly strong in her own right (evidenced by the fact that she did at least an okay job with little to no experience), though her inferiority to the other girls in that regard is obvious.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Akashin

But there's a case to be made for the fact that with time and experience she'd probably be perfectly strong in her own right

Ah, but for that you need unfathomable dedication.

Anyway, magic is emotion. Homura accepted that she has no future, and that even if she saves Madoka, she won't be thanked for it. But that's ok, even if she burns herself in hell, it's ok. Contrast this with Sayaka, who after realizing she wouldn't be able to get with Kamijo, couldn't keep going forward.

Homura's strong will to keep going forward in a thankless world is actually what eventually made her stronger, instead of just experience. Sayaka, who got crashed after her first downfall, is just not emotionally strong enough to keep going. With her fragile will power, she would never be able to become stronger.

[Snork]

Don't forget that Homura already experienced a complete BSoD. It took Madoka's dying request to set her back on track, otherwise we'd get another witch in no time. And the promise to Madoka is what cements her attitude and determination.
Like I said, it's all about protecting someone. Not the world, just someone. Kamijou or not, Sayaka was pretty eager to be a hero, but the circumstances that cut her off any possible relationship with Kamijou hit her rather hard. It was the conflict of images - you're not usually a hero of justice and a soulless zombie AT THE SAME TIME. Since she no longer considered herself human, she basically lost any reason for protecting other humans, thus losing all her purpose and meaning of becoming what she had become. Even the case with Hitomi - remember Sayaka realizing in dismay that after the conversation about Kamijou she actually regretted saving her friend for a moment...
One must wonder - what if Sayaka's BSoD was interrupted not by apple-munching church militants or cold-exterior flashsteppers, but by Madoka trapped in a witch's barrier again? Chances are, it MIGHT have shaped her up a little bit (although I can't bet on it, really), remind her that there's still someone she might want to protect. Alas, we'll never know...