Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[evil|plushie]

I think the emperor would be annoyed at Lelouch. On one hand, he succeeds the family by being the strongest, thus fulfilling the emperors desire. But otoh, he creates a world of the weak, where people like nanali can survive, which is definitely against the emperors wishes and which would probably piss the emperor off.

[atilim]

I wonder if the emperor care about how the world looks like after he dies. If the strongest must rule than he shouldn't care what that strongest person will do to his new empire.
But if he does care, then he would just simply make sure that the person hoe he see fiths should rule the empire. Like I got the feeling that he never itended to let Clovis rule, simply because of he was (a idiot).

And sticking to the topic.
I think that Lelouche ways is better than that of Suzaku. Lelouche actually nows how to accomplish his goal unlike Suzaku. Also it's not like he kills more people than the Empire, wasn't Clovis and Cornelia who were murdering the elevens and who was it that tryed to stop them. The only one's that will became worst of are the one's that will deserve it.
And what the hell could Suzaku change, it is now like that he would have any influence to change anything at the royal family. The only one that would be able to get along with him is Euphemia and her chases to became the empress is probely almost to nothing. Sombody would have to kill everybody that could take a claim to the trone and Lelouche and also Nunnaly before she could become a empress.

[JediNight]

I get Lacus vibes from Euphemia actually. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts growing more of a backbone later on in the series.

Prediction: Lelouch eventually kills Cornelia, and Euphemia is put into a position of leadership in Japan then in her place. Sorta a mix of the roles of Lacus and Cagalli from Gundam Seed basically. Her friendship with Suzaku will lead to her wanting to take a softer stance on the "11s" and probably being pressed to crackdown hard due to Zero and not wanting to.

[atilim]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I get Lacus vibes from Euphemia actually. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts growing more of a backbone later on in the series.

Prediction: Lelouch eventually kills Cornelia, and Euphemia is put into a position of leadership in Japan then in her place. Sorta a mix of the roles of Lacus and Cagalli from Gundam Seed basically. Her friendship with Suzaku will lead to her wanting to take a softer stance on the "11s" and probably being pressed to crackdown hard due to Zero and not wanting to.

If Lelouch kills Cornelia it's most likley that the emperor would go to area 11 or somebody that's stronger than Cornelia in order to deal with Zero, and note that Cornelia is one of the more powerful one's in the royal family. Zero's plan is basically is to defeated his father by annoying him enough as that he himself will go and fight against Zero.

[shadowlord_756]

The emperor doesn't seem like a fanatic to me so I find myself doubting that he will be happy about Lelouch taking revenge on him. He may provoke Lelouch but I kinda doubt that his morals are worth more than his life to him. On the question of whether the end justifies the means, isn't the end also influenced by the means? If by trying to create a world with no war Lelouch tears up the world and causes civil war then of course the end wouldn't justify the means because the end itself is whats wrong. But if he plays it smart and ends up creating a peaceful world in exchange for one or two wars then no one will blame him. After all if he didn't and wars continued even more people would have died over time. So all in all if the ending is acceptable then so is the means because the means is merely part of the end.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Bahamut89

Suzaku didn't kill any terrorists in Shinjuku. He pulled a Kira, intentionally avoiding cockpits and letting them eject safely. And those guys were hardly innocent, they're enemy soldiers who chose to attack Britannia. We haven't seen enough of Britannia's policies to know what would happen if there weren't terrorists hiding among the civilians, so the whole massacre could be considered partially their fault anyway, from Suzaku's point of view. Unless Britannia kills civilians completely without provocation, which we haven't seen any evidence of despite their complete mercilessness after being provoked, then Suzaku's somewhat right to believe that stopping the terrorists is the path towards peace. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure he killed the cannon operators in episode 8. Of course, those guys had already taken and killed hostages. Anyway, Suzaku has shown nothing that implies he would kill innocents or judges people too quickly or anything.

Basically, Suzaku doesn't believe in terrorism. "The war is over, we lost, make the best of it." Fighting back is only going to make things worse for the people caught in the middle, which is clearly right. Especially if you're fighting back terrorist-style, which is probably long-term attrition with no victory in sight for either side. He's swallowing his Japanese pride and doing what he thinks is best for everyone. Britannia is cruel, and he knows that, but they're not demons, so there's hope for change. They already have an Honorary Britannian system, don't they? Maybe by becoming a model officer and showing that Elevens can be loyal, they'll start to relax their policies.

Provoked or not how can the massacre of civilians be justified? It is doubtful that the old couple or the crying child that was gunned down are guilty of harbouring the terrorists. They were killed simplily because Clovis needed to cover for the military and the "poison gas" being there.

And the Honorary Britannian system barely works, its more of just Britannia appearing to give the 11s a chance for PR purposes. The purists want the honourary britannians out of the military and as is evident in the series there are alot of prejudices against them. Remember Suzaku going to Ashford? The graffiti on his gym clothes? Kallen's mom? The hotdog guy? The system won't work as long as the people hold prejudices against the people the system is supposed to help. Sure the guys that did the graffiti and beat up the hotdog vendor might be amoung the more extreme, but think about Nina. The mere sight of an 11 is enough to scare her, because that person is differant and before even giving the person a chance she already made up her mind that he is scary. Additude like that makes the system look like a joke.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Let's assume instead of a peaceful treaty, Lelouch and his militia managed to crush all their opposition, kill many leaders and even some of Lelouch's half-siblings, and essentially took over control of the entire former nation of Japan...

Then what?

Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?

The only way things could work out for Lulu, is if somehow the Emperor visit Japan himself. Otherwise, with the seats of power so far away from Japan, Lelouch's allies simply wouldn't (and couldn't) support him all the way.

I think Lelouch is banking on the fact that if he takes out enough of the Royalty the Emperor can't afford to leave him alone at the risk of appearing weak in to the other major powers. Especially if Cornelia, acknowledged as one of strongest military leaders in Britannia, is defeated and killed. Ofcourse if he intends to take the throne for whatever reasons then he will need to venture out of Japan, but if his goal is just to topple Britannia by killing the Emperor then it's very likely that if Cornelia and the 2nd prince fails to take down Zero then the Emperor himself will take the matter into his own hands.

[Anh_Minh]

I think Lelouch's strategy is to liberate all the areas to break the power of Brittania. Once it's well under way, he'll tackle Brittania itself.

Back to the subject - I don't see how one could consider Suzaku as "whiter than white". He supports an imperialistic system in which conquered people are treated like subhumans. Even if in person he's nice to everybody and doesn't stain his own hands anymore than Clovis did, he shares in the sins of Brittania. When Brittanians kick Elevens just because they can, it might as well be his foot in the shoe.

If he was some pacifist writing pamphlets, I could respect him. But a soldier? Honestly, I don't get his stance on violence. Is it "it's alright, as long as you've got law on your side"? Or "it's alright, as long as I'm not there to witness it"? Or "it's okay if it's me doing it"? Or maybe some shifting compromise between the three? Anyway, there's something about it that screams "howling hypocrite".

As for Lelouch - so far, he hasn't done anything really bad. He certainly isn't the "ally of justice" he pretends to be, but so what? If he is to succeed, a bloodprice will have to be paid. But it's better than perpetuating Brittania.

[atilim]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think Lelouch's strategy is to liberate all the areas to break the power of Brittania. Once it's well under way, he'll tackle Brittania itself.

I don't think that Lelouch have any intention in freeing the area's including area 11. Based on eps 9 he thinks that area 11 is better but the problem is the people. The strategy is to humiliate Brittania enough to bring his father to Japan and defeat him and along the way also discover hoe killed is mother.

Also about Suzaku he is just naive and a idiot. He can't change people and if he does something good in the eyes of his superiors the only thing he will probely get is a medal and a thanks nothing more so how would he be able to change anything. And is not if that fool will be respected like Zero, he will always be a traitor among the 11 and a monkey among the Brittaina so what can he doe.

[Anh_Minh]

Lelouch wants to destroy Brittania. Not just his father. It's going to take action on a global scale to do that.

[Owaranai Destiny]

It depends on how it boils down to-conquest, or bait?

The first option is rather plausible, but will probably take an exceedingly long time. Depending on how his encounters with the members of the royalty go (Cornelia, who should be looking to avenge her defeat or Prince Schneizel), even if he starts to liberate the Areas aside from Area 11, he's going to face fighting from all sides. Britannia is not that small just as to be confined to the North American continent, after all. They have been doing their homework in annexing other countries as well. If there was to be any better chance of success, Lelouch would need the help of the European countries or China, or any other countries raving to give a kick in the Empire's arse with a good backing behind them. Even then, the problem comes in with the time he needs and takes to do so.

Baiting is of course the other excellent option. Killing or defeating royalty in battle is an interesting way for baiting the Emperor, but I can't help but think that Britannia isn't giving it's full attention on Zero as of yet. (The troops so far tell me that they are only reinforcements brought in by Cornelia or those stationed in Area 11 itself, but not from the elite forces of Britannia) Only those in Area 11 are, and with Cornelia's defeat, maybe it just might be enough to catch the Emperor's attention-IF Schneizel does get in and somehow ends up returning with his tail between his legs, that is. Aside from that, it WOULD be a problem if the Emperor simply sends his children to fight Zero and end up with zero (no pun intended) inheritors to his throne.

[Anh_Minh]

I don't like the idea of making it all a man-to-man contest. It should be about ideas and nations.

And there is the problem of, as I said, destroying Brittania. If the Emperor dies, another will just rise. Just killing him isn't enough.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't like the idea of making it all a man-to-man contest. It should be about ideas and nations.

And there is the problem of, as I said, destroying Brittania. If the Emperor dies, another will just rise. Just killing him isn't enough.

Well, actually, that's sort of true and not true in the same time.

It's not true in the sense that there is a finite number of people eligible for the throne right now, and as such if they are all whacked, Britannia as a nation ruled by an Emperor could ceased to exist.

It is true in the sense that a tyrannical power, one way or another, would remain unless the entire nation of Britannia is turned on its head.
Perhaps the numerous noble houses could simply turn Britannia into an Aristocracy, which just means Britannia would essentially maintain its way of life without a stable ruler and as such is more prone to change of leadership by assassination every month or so.
Another possibility is one of the aspirating enemies of Britannia would march its armies over the weakened nation and "Do on to them what they had done to you." The roles reverse, but the oppression and violence would remain.

Let's make it clear; if Lulu's goal, beside getting revenge, was to make a safe haven for his sister, he would have a long way to go. Britannia had literally made the entire world its enemy, and as such it would take more than a dead emperor and a change in foreign policy to sate the other nation's thirst for retribution.

Personally? I believe Lelouch doesn't give a damn. He is out for revenge, and Lulu believe everything will work out if he just keep trying. Someone who could defeat the most powerful Empire in the world, he would reason, had nothing to fear from any weaker nations.

EDIT: Just a reminder, this is nothing but conjecture at this point; There isn't enough genuine current information we could work with concerning Lelouch's methodology, and only vague information on his future goals. Further, what I suggested is something far beyond the scope of 25 episodes. Yet without further information (like what the other foreign powers are really like), it would be silly to determine what happens in two years time when the new seasons might appear. After all, even just a minor adjustment of main characters could drastically alter the political landscape.^_^

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah. I just meant that killing only one guy - even if it's the Emperor - wouldn't be nearly enough to "destroy Britannia" in any meaningful way. He could very well be counting on the other nations taking advantage once he's weakened Britannia enough with internal strife. It's not like they wouldn't have reasons enough to want to destroy what military power Britannia has.

It does beg a question, though - how safe will Nanally and Lulu's classmates be, as Britannians among a freshly liberated Japan? That's probably another reason for his Allies of Justice shtick: so it isn't "Japanese against Briatannians" but "everyone against the corrupt people at the top".

[demon_god04]

It would really depend on how the other world powers view Britannia. If Lulu manages to kill the Emperor and all his children like he wants, there will be no legitiment successor to the throne, and history has shown us how well that works out for a country . The higher ranking officials will most definately make a grab as would powerful generals. Whatever the case there will be conflict, leaving Britannia vulnerable to external invasion. IF at this time suddenly a successor appears in the form of a thought to be long dead prince, he could come out of all of this smelling like roses by "uniting Britannia against the barbarian hordes".

Ofcourse this is just conjecture at this point, but I question if Lulu intends to bring the fight to Britannia. Right now in Japan Lulu has support and perhaps even an edge. Could Lulu even take on the Emperor if the Emperor has the homefield advantage in a britannian controlled area?

[Anh_Minh]

If Lelouch was on a strict time limit, and only wanted to kill the Emperor, then yes, his best shot would probably be a repeat of what he did against Clovis - and that he's so far failed to do to Cornelia.

But I think he wants a broader victory than that. He's in for the long haul, creating the conditions for a fall of Britannia. If he's to accomplish that, then whacking his father is almost incidental.

[Varis]

Morality???

I am convinced that Lulu has morals just as Suzaku has them. Morals are different from person to person though. His mother was murdered in front of him and his father betrayed his trust. He is clearly motivated by revenge (or a moral obligation?) but not blindly. In order to get to the right people, in order to interrogate those that know something, he will need power.
Geass is convenient but as he said himself, he would have done this anyways, the geass just sped his plans up.

If he can use Japan as a tool to break his father he will, if he has to use someone else, he will too. He seems to be very focused and keeps sight of his ultimate goal revenge on the murder of his mother and possibly revenge for his fathers betrayal.


His methods are not very extreme yet. He has not anything beyond what the other resistance fighters or britannians have done other then success. He may have to though. To break morale or bait out his father, he may have to do some very atrocious acts that will force britannia to react.

The ends never justify the means but without the means there will be no end. That's how I see it. Lulu will stain his hands pretty bad before this is all over but his way is by far the most plausible for success.


Suzaku is an idealist and contradicts himself. He means well but he is a pawn. Only the plot armor is keeping him alive from the people he sided with.

Changing things from within is very noble but he is not the right person to do it. Lulu would be in such a position. Announce his heritage and then rise up in the ranks.

This is anime though... I'm sure Suzaku will have Euphemia fall for him and with her influence make heart warming changes. She may even petition or stand up to the emperor for his sake. Like others, I'm getting the kira+lacus wibes.



Ah well, even though Suzaku may end up being the "good" guy of the show and Lulu the bad guy we feel empathic for, I agree with Lulu.


He has a plan and is sticking to it. He adapt as necessary, he puts his trust in the strengths of his allies and makes good use of it. He avoids unnecessary losses (pulling back when it was just a fight of attrition even if he could have won) and best of all, after getting to his enemy, (with a lot of people sacrificed on the way) he does not hesistate to pull the trigger.


That's the worst... I get sooo upset when everyone is dead around the good guy but with their sacrifice the bad guy was defeated. Yet, when it came to pulling the trigger he/she gets all teary eyed, the flashbacks kick in where the bad guy was not all that bad or misunderstood and they can't do it...

They "Banish" them or tell them humilitation is worse then death or perhaps that they won't "lower" themselves" to their level.... whichever excuse comes to mind to explain why they did not pull the trigger.



Selfrightheous people that FIGHT for a better world are deluding themselves. In the end their hands will be just as bloody as the ones they fight. It's a sacrifice they have to make in order to bring change.

[demon_god04]

Certainly his aim is to bring down Britannia, which hes doing by bringing down the leaders/figurehead of the empire. So far hes targeting the royalty, because one of the most effective way to destroy a monarchy would be to kill the ruler and his family. Granted theres more to it then that but regardless what Lulu does, if at the end of the day the Emperor lives then hes lost.

The operation may have failed against Cornelia but it was a really close shave for her, if the Lancelot had shown up a minuite later she would have ended up as another propagada tool a la Clovis. And also if he couldn't do it in Japan where the situation is still unstable and with backing from whatever organizations that are aiding him, what chances would he have in an area where he would have none of that?

-edit- reply to Varis' post

Yeah one of the reasons Suzaku is annoying more and more with each passing episode. He condemns Zero for his actions because his methods are wrong, and yet hes the one siding with the ones that have so far shown to have massacred civilians. What really gets me is the fact that HE doesnt know what he should do and seems to be just going with the flow while at the same time lost in his pesudo sense of justice. Compared to someone like Lulu he's fustrating to watch because whether you agree with Lulu's methods or not, atleast the guy knows what he wants and how to get it.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Certainly his aim is to bring down Britannia, which hes doing by bringing down the leaders/figurehead of the empire. So far hes targeting the royalty, because one of the most effective way to destroy a monarchy would be to kill the ruler and his family. Granted theres more to it then that but regardless what Lulu does, if at the end of the day the Emperor lives then hes lost.

Come to think of it, that might actually be his goal all along-To eliminate all his 'siblings' and his 'father', thus creating a void in the succession of the throne in which he would be able to take over. What VCV said about Lelouch having two goals might actually play into this: Destroying the royalty which he so hates to exact vengeance, and creating a place or world in which he and Nanaly wouldn't need to face the same thing that happened to them so long ago. He needn't become an Emperor, but instead change Britannia into a nation of democracy or something else he deems less evil.

The operation may have failed against Cornelia but it was a really close shave for her, if the Lancelot had shown up a minuite later she would have ended up as another propagada tool a la Clovis. And also if he couldn't do it in Japan where the situation is still unstable and with backing from whatever organizations that are aiding him, what chances would he have in an area where he would have none of that?

The possibilities are limitless. Currently Lelouch is facing the problem of having support but too little people stepping up to the bat (A.K.A manpower shortage) in comparison with the Britannian military in Area 11. Putting aside the S factor, there are still other Areas in which Zero can draw his much needed resources from. Depending on his successes, which can easily translate into the failings of the Britannian government and a wavering of trust on the Britannian citizens' part. The situation can easily become unstable as well.

But that's just a theory, anyway.

Indeed, I have to agree with the views on Suzaku. It's going to irk me if he does succeed in the end with his goal. Not that his goal isn't admirable, but the way he's going about the change things doesn't seem plausible at all. If he wants to defeat Zero because his methods are "wrong", he's just a selfish bastard who's actually doing something that allows his confused heart to rest easy. Put this in an equation:

Suzaku defeats/kills Zero=Britannia kills Zero= Big blow to the hopes of Elevens wanting to be independent.

The way I see it, his way is what I would call 'self-gratifying'. Just like a typical male lead saying "I've done my best and that's enough." without caring about the implications. At the rate he's going, Suzaku's going to need to find a few successors to his goals, and my heartiest congraulations to him if he EVER does find one.

[flou]

I highly doubt making Britannia into a democracy in place of ruling over it as an emperor is one of his highest priorities. As past episodes and recent spoilers have indicated, Lelouch is not going to be morally sound by the end of the series. His goals are more ruthless and sinister. I think the difference between himself and Light of Death Note is that Light-O has delusioned himself into thinking he's a hero of justice and his actions benefit the world. Lulu doesn't envision himself in that way, but pretends to be that figurehead and manipulate his followers into accomplishing his own goals. Light-O thinks he's good, while Lulu knows what he's doing is evil (as his speech at the end of episode 1 implicated). According to spoilers on this forum as well as on the LJ community

Spoiler:

the power of geass has side affects. Not physical, mental degradation of morals, it seems. Someone awhile ago brought up the appearance of Freud's "Theory of the Super-Ego" was shown in the lab where C.C. was being studied and suggested that that means Lulu may eventually lack the sense to differentiate between right and wrong. The spoilers on LJ enforced this theory as well.

Becoming the emperor, although he hasn't mentioned it, seems to tie in with Lulu's goals well.

On the subject of Suzaku, I don't dislike him, but I don't agree with him at all because of his contradicting beliefs. I think Suzaku realizes he's a hypocrite, but tries to hide his real opinions in order to better fit into society (such as changing from "ore" to "boku." In an interview, someone stated that Suzaku was the "means," while Lelouch is the "ends." Suzaku tries to figure out a positive method or "means" of working out his plans, while Lulu doesn't consider the methods in order to achieve the "ends."

[Mango_ice-cream]

Still like that the main character is the one with the questionable means. Same thing as Death Note. Both Light and Luleuch have their own way of doing things... AND IT GETS THINGS DONE!!!