Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Rising Dragon]

Guinevere was definitely aware of Arturia's gender, as was Morgan, since they banged and all. The wiki claims that Kay knew but was silenced by Merlin, and thus kept it secret, but there's no included source for it, unlike Bedivere's entry.

[mirakura]

Well, Kay is her brother so...Merlin actually called her Arturia, and no matter how much of a goof he was, I don't think he would risk something like that. By silence, I assume he did it without any spells, lol. That said, Merlin VS Zeltrech would be interesting XD

[GDB]

I don't think Lancelot knew, but if I recall Fate/Extra said that Gawain knew and would sometimes substitute for Arthur in certain official meetings.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't think Lancelot knew, but if I recall Fate/Extra said that Gawain knew and would sometimes substitute for Arthur in certain official meetings.

Lancelot knew in Fate/Zero light novel and the anime version too, iirc (but novels I'm sure because he had a little flashback with a narration about it).

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't think Lancelot knew, but if I recall Fate/Extra said that Gawain knew and would sometimes substitute for Arthur in certain official meetings.

Yep. But if Lancelot knew, he wouldn't act like that. He thinks he stole 'Arthur's' wife, yet 'Arthur' still forgave him. I just remembered in 'Onegai Einzbern....' he said something about her, about preferring her to Guin

[Jaden]

I think this would be a good time to brush up on my UBW trivia.

One thing that I wondered about as I watched the anime was, at what point does Archer actually regain his memories, and at what point does he decide to kill Shirou?

I always thought he was fully aware of everything to begin with, and is just feigning ignorance in front of Shirou and Rin. In the Fate route he never really gives a shit about the whole war and goes through the motions. But, in the anime I thought he seemed genuinely confused.

And I guess in UBW at some point (but when?) his jimmies get rustled and he decides to kill Shirou and kick everybody else's arses.

[Nayrael]

- I think that Archer honestly did not have his memories when he was just summoned as he did not seem to know hoe powerful Rin was
- however, he definitely knew before the 3rd day was over as he gave Rin her pendant back... the pendant that saved his life in his own route. This leads me to believe that he regained his memories when he saw Shirou which led him to remember his goal
- it is not that he does not care in Fate, he is just wounded by Saber so he is probably waiting to get better. Adn when he does get better... BERSER-CAR! The main reason why UBW storyline happens is because in that route he is not fatally wounded by Saber so he can start making him plans immediately
- in HF he is also wounded, but later decides that The Shadow takes priority over his own goals

[Lorhand]

This should answer your questions more or less. It's from Fate/side material.

Archer [Servant]

[...]

The night he was summoned (after Rin went to sleep), he assessed the present situation, figured out his circumstances, and concluded that the opportunity to complete his objective had at long last appeared.

However, he didn't realize the girl who summoned him was Tohsaka Rin until she introduced herself. (His memory wasn't fuzzy, the name "Tohsaka Rin" had simply been worn away by time.) At that moment, it all came rushing back like lightning.

"Then I'll call you Rin. …Yes, it suits you well."

Archer's murmur at that time was thick with a heartfelt and madly passionate affection.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

This should answer your questions more or less. It's from Fate/side material.

I wonder who he thought was going to summon him if it wasn't Rin? Not many people could have had the red pendant in their possession in the 5th Holy Grail War. Or did he expect to get summoned based up on his affinity with his master?

Earlier Grail Wars could also be a possibility. As long as he was summoned somewhere in the past where he could make a change which would prevent Shirou from being born or follow the same path as him would probably be fine to him.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I wonder who he thought was going to summon him if it wasn't Rin? Not many people could have had the red pendant in their possession in the 5th Holy Grail War. Or did he expect to get summoned based up on his affinity with his master?

Earlier Grail Wars could also be a possibility. As long as he was summoned somewhere in the past where he could make a change which would prevent Shirou from being born or follow the same path as him would probably be fine to him.

He probably didn't realize that Rin was the one who saved him in his lifetime or that the pendant once belonged to her.

[Jaden]

Hm, ok. So he picks up the pendant and then knows everything. Then says to Rin: "Hey, we should probably go make sure that kid is dea..I mean, make sure he's fine" but it's already too late, the kid has summoned a Saber. ;_;

Also he has to do his thing while also protecting Rin. If he was a scumbag he'd have a much easier time. Just slice off Rin's hand and run off to kill himself straight away.

[Amarantine]

And of course since Rin forms an alliance with Shirou, Archer has to go to all the trouble of leaving her for Caster and then killing Caster so he's free from the subjugation of Command Spells.

Furthermore, I think that the way he and Shirou got to interact by themselves in UBW (specifically after Archer saved Shirou from Caster) also played a part in Archer deciding to act out against him. Shirou directly reminded him of everything he now hated about his younger self, which made Archer finally go full "drown in your ideals and die" mode. In Fate and HF, they never got to interact that much, so Archer was able to restrain himself and almost seemed to have some semblance of fondness for Shirou sometimes, what with the way he left him his arm and served as a mentor of sorts for him.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Earlier Grail Wars could also be a possibility. As long as he was summoned somewhere in the past where he could make a change which would prevent Shirou from being born or follow the same path as him would probably be fine to him.

No it wouldn't. He specifically wanted to kill Shirou with his own hands to create a paradox that would erase him from existence. Merely changing events so he wouldn't be born or allowing someone else to kill Shirou isn't enough. He needs the paradox because he knows otherwise there's no chance.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

He probably didn't realize that Rin was the one who saved him in his lifetime or that the pendant once belonged to her.

Pretty much this.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Hm, ok. So he picks up the pendant and then knows everything. Then says to Rin: "Hey, we should probably go make sure that kid is dea..I mean, make sure he's fine" but it's already too late, the kid has summoned a Saber. ;_;

No, as Lorhand showed he figured it out as soon as Rin introduced herself the next morning.

Also he has to do his thing while also protecting Rin. If he was a scumbag he'd have a much easier time. Just slice off Rin's hand and run off to kill himself straight away.

Pretty much. Despite acting like an ass at times, he's still a genuinely kind person.

[kenshinstyle]

Well, in all routes Archer always attempted to dissuade Shirou first from his path instead of outright killing him the first chance he got and depending on his answer and the route, he acted differently.

Archer planned quite ahead intending to let Rin contract with Saber after he had killed Shirou and taken care of Gil to ensure Rin would be the winner. So yeah, he really had a hard time instead of just fighting to win the grail like a normal servant.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Also he has to do his thing while also protecting Rin. If he was a scumbag he'd have a much easier time. Just slice off Rin's hand and run off to kill himself straight away.

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty much. Despite acting like an ass at times, he's still a genuinely kind person.

I generally agree, but, to play devil's advocate, he did leave her in the hands of Shinji, Gilgamesh and Kotomine for a while there.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

By why couldn't see send the people away? She had the authority to do so.

I doubt they really had private baths in those days....

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

He probably didn't realize that Rin was the one who saved him in his lifetime or that the pendant once belonged to her.

Yeah, Shirou doesn't realise it in Fate, and only finds out in UBW and HF because of Archer.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

And of course since Rin forms an alliance with Shirou, Archer has to go to all the trouble of leaving her for Caster and then killing Caster so he's free from the subjugation of Command Spells.

Furthermore, I think that the way he and Shirou got to interact by themselves in UBW (specifically after Archer saved Shirou from Caster) also played a part in Archer deciding to act out against him. Shirou directly reminded him of everything he now hated about his younger self, which made Archer finally go full "drown in your ideals and die" mode. In Fate and HF, they never got to interact that much, so Archer was able to restrain himself and almost seemed to have some semblance of fondness for Shirou sometimes, what with the way he left him his arm and served as a mentor of sorts for him.

It's a combination of circumstances and Shirou's actions. Fate Archer never gets the opportunity to do anything about Shirou because he got injured and then had to protect Rin from Ilya, and HF Shirou didn't because events were too serious for him to hold on to that grudge, plus Shirou had abandoned the aspect of his ideal that Archer found so self-destructive anyway. UBW Shirou, on the other hand, seemed to be heading straight down the same path as Archer had gone down.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I generally agree, but, to play devil's advocate, he did leave her in the hands of Shinji, Gilgamesh and Kotomine for a while there.

He got desperate. He tried to set everything up to ensure that Rin won the war, but she fucked him over by contracting with Saber too early, and the only way he could find to fight Shirou was to kidnap Rin. Even then, he still didn't want to harm her, but when Gil showed up he was left with a choice of fighting Gil (which he'd likely lose and would certainly stop him from killing Shirou) or buying Rin a bit of time by saying "wait until morning", with the assumption that Saber would go to save her master instead of standing around like a dummy watching the two of them fight whilst her master was almost being raped....

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I doubt they really had private baths in those days....



Yeah, Shirou doesn't realise it in Fate, and only finds out in UBW and HF because of Archer.



It's a combination of circumstances and Shirou's actions. Fate Archer never gets the opportunity to do anything about Shirou because he got injured and then had to protect Rin from Ilya, and HF Shirou didn't because events were too serious for him to hold on to that grudge, plus Shirou had abandoned the aspect of his ideal that Archer found so self-destructive anyway. UBW Shirou, on the other hand, seemed to be heading straight down the same path as Archer had gone down.



He got desperate. He tried to set everything up to ensure that Rin won the war, but she fucked him over by contracting with Saber too early, and the only way he could find to fight Shirou was to kidnap Rin. Even then, he still didn't want to harm her, but when Gil showed up he was left with a choice of fighting Gil (which he'd likely lose and would certainly stop him from killing Shirou) or buying Rin a bit of time by saying "wait until morning", with the assumption that Saber would go to save her master instead of standing around like a dummy watching the two of them fight whilst her master was almost being raped....

Well, no, she wasn't just standing there. You really don't understand how much things run through her head. We already now why, and I doubt Saber knew where Rin was ANYWAY.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

He got desperate. He tried to set everything up to ensure that Rin won the war, but she fucked him over by contracting with Saber too early, and the only way he could find to fight Shirou was to kidnap Rin. Even then, he still didn't want to harm her, but when Gil showed up he was left with a choice of fighting Gil (which he'd likely lose and would certainly stop him from killing Shirou) or buying Rin a bit of time by saying "wait until morning", with the assumption that Saber would go to save her master instead of standing around like a dummy watching the two of them fight whilst her master was almost being raped....

Yeah, upon rereading the scene where Archer deals with Shinji and Gil, it's clear he did try to negotiate Rin's safety as best he could. But being Master-less and at like 10% of his full power at that point, trying to fight Gil would have been suicide so buying time was all he could manage.

As for Saber, to be fair that was probably because Nasu wanted to give her some manner of resolution in UBW as well, but since it couldn't happen through a romantic relationship with Shirou as UBW was Rin's route, he decided to have Saber find her answer through watching Shirou and Archer fight. But yes, that did make her look kinda bad as a supposedly loyal Servant, and it's a good thing Lancer was around to be a hero in her place.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Yeah, upon rereading the scene where Archer deals with Shinji and Gil, it's clear he did try to negotiate Rin's safety as best he could. But being Master-less and at like 10% of his full power at that point, trying to fight Gil would have been suicide so buying time was all he could manage.

As for Saber, to be fair that was probably because Nasu wanted to give her some manner of resolution in UBW as well, but since it couldn't happen through a romantic relationship with Shirou as UBW was Rin's route, he decided to have Saber find her answer through watching Shirou and Archer fight. But yes, did make her look rather kinda bad as a supposedly loyal Servant, and it's a good thing Lancer was around to be a hero in her place.

Lol, yeah. But even as Rin's servant, she's still more loyal to Shirou. For some reason..
We all know Lancer has a thing for Rin~

[GDB]

Originally Posted by mirakura

I doubt Saber knew where Rin was ANYWAY.

Archer told them where she was. Lancer went and got her, so clearly his directions were good.