[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 359 Discussion

[War_Lord]

I'm probably spouting nonsense due to the current enemy x good guy ratio, but is there any solid indication that the vizards are coming to help the Shinigami and not Aizen? I don't know, I just got a feeling in my gut that there's gonna be a big twist by the end of this battle and the Vizards will have something to do with it. IMHO it would make more sense if they did side with Aizen. Even though he was the one who made them who they are, it was ultimately the soul society who casted them away instead of trying to help them. They stated pretty clearly how much they hated SS (even more so then how much they hated Aizen.). Although I think they'll help Aizen, I think it'll be a hidden agenda in which they'll ultimately take revenge on Aizen once their beef with SS is settled.

It's probably just wishful thinking on my part though. I'd feel a lot better about the Shinigamis' winning streak if a twist like that was to occur.

[Lelite]

I highly, highly doubt they're going to in any way help out Aizen. While SS might have casted them out, they did it because of what AIZEN had done to them, and 46's decision, no matter how conservative, was based on the principle that SS purifies all hollows indiscriminately.

Personally, I'd feel really let down if they join Aizen because it would go against logic and everything we've learned so far. Unless there's a really good justification for it. ("He made us stronger" doesn't count. I mean, we know all of the Espada basically live to get stronger, and most of them aren't that loyal to Aizen either.)

I also doubt Hitsugaya is anywhere near a victory. I mean, Halibel hasn't even done anything remotely powerful against him. She'll probably pull a Yammy and come out of that ice cream cone all "Thanks for the cool-down, my breasts were getting sweaty" or something.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Haak

Thank you for wasting my time. Do I look like I care if the big three do it?

Oh I'll expect bad writing. I have been for a long while, actually.

You don't know what bad writing is...

Did you even read what I typed? I explained perfectly well what happened and how Ulquiorra could've been confused. Let me explain it to you again. "It was his control over his mind that was fluctuating. Hollow Ichigo was pushing it down to where Hollow Ichigo's reiatsu was (which I'm assuming is a place where it would be undetectable) so that he could let his out and gain control. Ichigo was in bankai which keeps his own reiatsu under control. So it wasn't fluctuating itself." This explains how Ulquiorra could've mistaken it as Ichigo's reitsu. Because otherwise he would've detected Hollow reiatsu wouldn't he? And this only happens when Hollow Ichigo tries to take over which sort of contradicts your claim that we've known from the start. We blatantly haven't.

Coulda, shoudla, woulda...Your opinions are simply assumptions..I use canon.

Canon > Your opinions.

Resolve, willpower, what difference does it bloody make? They mean the same God damn thing and my point still stands. They suddenly brought in this "resolve training" when there was no hint of before. It suddenly solves everything and Ichigo is suddenly able to beat Renji when it looked as if he was losing.

Your not reading if you think the resolve just showed up out of nowhere during Ichigo and Renji's battle when Ichigo trained to get it before the battle and the audience as well as Ichigo knew about it beforehand!!

You make no sense at all.....

I'm not getting you here. First you say it's my subjective opinion which is perfectly acceptable for me to have but then you say I'm not paying attention. You're not even trying to convince me here. You're not providing any arguments. You're just insulting me. I don't care if this is nothing new from you. It's still not okay. What's more is that you're completely ignoring what I say.

"I'm not denying Ichigo's inner hollow growing." That's what I said. I was complaining about the fact that Hollow Ichigo was ridiculously stronger than Ichigo. I even said it would've been okay if Hollow Ichigo was a fair bit stronger. Hollow Ichigo developing has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

But yeah, you are right. Hollow Ichigo has been devleloping, since he explained that he achieved Bankai when Ichigo did. But he's just learning what Ichigo learns so how does that explain him being stronger or making Hichigo (Hollow Ichigo as king) stronger?

I'm not sure I follow. Hollow Ichigo beat Ulquiorra and Ichigo didn't. But like I said, there was never actually any hint given beforehand that Hollow ichigo was so incredibly more powerful than Ichigo and thus Deus Ex machina. Look, I'm not sure you understand my point. I'm arguing that the massive power increase was a Deus Ex Machina. Like I said if it were a closer fight then I wouldn't have had any problem with it

Hollow Ichigo always has been shown to be the more dominant than Ichigo from the start. Yeah, just like Hollow Ichigo was dominating Byakauya and normal Ichigo couldn't do the same. Yeah we as an audience can't see the huge difference in power between the two, that's some DEM there...wooh. Hollow Ichigo always has been shown to be the more dominant than Ichigo from the start.

So you're saying you weren't led to believe that Ulquiorra had survived the blast and wouldn't die from it, when you first saw Ulquiorra again?
Didn't the fact that Ulquiorra didn't believe himself to be dying until he started disapearing and the fact that he was still regenerating throw you off?

Nah I was waiting for the attack's after affect to show up......And it did.

[Kafriel]

Fully transformed hollow Ichigo was just TOO strong. It's not like any of us didn't expect him to be strong, but instead of things going the way they went, a normal fight would have Ichigo getting possessed, owning Ulq a bit and THEN Ulq releasing for a second time, and not dying in a matter of minutes. The way the fight ended makes Ulq's second release utterly meaningless, as if he didn't get any stronger after releasing...and I'm pretty sure he could cero Ichigo's chest away just as well while in his first release.

[ShinAkuma135]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Fully transformed hollow Ichigo was just TOO strong. It's not like any of us didn't expect him to be strong, but instead of things going the way they went, a normal fight would have Ichigo getting possessed, owning Ulq a bit and THEN Ulq releasing for a second time, and not dying in a matter of minutes. The way the fight ended makes Ulq's second release utterly meaningless, as if he didn't get any stronger after releasing...and I'm pretty sure he could cero Ichigo's chest away just as well while in his first release.

i agree. i mean, if we go by what ulquiorra said about his second release being not known by aizen...that could mean he was stronger than his 4th rank...but to be taken out soooo easily is just ridiculous. if he's gonna train for his full form too like he did for his vizard form then it'll be pretty much useless for anyone to go against him, unless i'm drastically underestimating the captains. guess we'll just have to wait and see

[kitten320]

Fully agreed!
I expected the Hichigo to appear and then we could have a nice mega fight between 2 strong opponents but instead we got a torn apart Ulquiorra who didn't do a thing in his second form! The question comes... why the hell Kubo gave him one when he planned to destroy him like a mere fly?!

If Hichigo came out and we would have a good beastly fight, I would be more than happy! But instead Ulquiorra was destroyed like he was nothing and we got another oh so godly Ichigo!
I bet next time he will get wings and a scythe or something and we will find out that he is a devil or death itself =/

[Ganshou-dono]

yeah...well I think kubo wanted to demonstrate ichigos "full" power...meaning that he ain't as weak as he appears at the moment...or maybe kubo just let his imagination go wild for a moment or he just didn't like ulquiorra's first release so he made a new one but wasn't able to stop him in second form
I dunno...however I'm not bothered by it...I liked ulquiorra (and I still do) so I would rather him lose to power beyond anything we've seen so far then see him killed by ichigo cuz he "mustn't lose"

[kitten320]

For me the whole fight was completly ruined, hate it

[Ganshou-dono]

I understand why...

I was just glad for what ulquiorra showed...it was enough for me to make him my most favourit arrancar...after his fight I started to think arrancars are kind of cool...until then I didn't like 'em one bit (except for neliel ...and number 9...his greed plus eating/evolution ability was just too awesome for me to overlook )

and after seeing ichigo-ultra-hollow form I can understand why aizen wanna be like that

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

after #0 i gave up on caring about the numbers

Amen, that was certainly a "Yami! WTF! HAX!" moment.

[ShinAkuma135]

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

Amen, that was certainly a "Yami! WTF! HAX!" moment.

that was about as bit a leap as ichigo...heck im gonna go ahead and give yammy more credits because he actually took time to eat and suck in souls...

[WONDERMIKE]

The whole concept of the second release and Ichigo's transformation was to show the "next level" or whatever you call it. Assuming Ulquiorra would not become stronger than #1-3 or #0-3 would render this new form and Ichigo's transformation meaningless. This was meant to show that even the probably strongest Espada, with his powers concentrated on defensive abilities(regeneration) was sliced up and outmatched by Ichigo's hollow. When you assume Ulqi v2.0 to be weak it would have been a poor demonstration of Ichigo's potential(he was able to cut his horn with only half of his body remaining, eventually causing the beast to change back). The only bad thing about that fight was the timing. Ulqiorra should not have shown his second release until the moment Ichigo turned into that beast as there was no real reason to do so beforehand.

Originally Posted by kitten320

He said espada.

Read more carefully: "Among the Espada I'm ranked fourth"

this statement is also true in case his second release would have made him more powerful than #0

We also have to consider the psychological aspect. He probably wanted Ichigo to feel despair back then too.. so of course he wouldn't say something like: "Heyho, Aizen made me his 4th espada, but truth is I'm hiding my true form teeheee"

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by WONDERMIKE

We also have to consider the psychological aspect. He probably wanted Ichigo to feel despair back then too.. so of course he wouldn't say something like: "Heyho, Aizen made me his 4th espada, but truth is I'm hiding my true form teeheee"

Sort of like Renji's conversation as he fought Ichigo in SS right? He said something along the lines of, even if you defeat me there are so and so number of VC like me and the same number of even stronger captains, are you going to defeat them all!?

At the time they both wanted to test Ichigo's determination and see what made the guy tick.

[kakakka]

The only bad thing about that fight was the timing. Ulqiorra should not have shown his second release until the moment Ichigo turned into that beast as there was no real reason to do so beforehand.

I think it's psychological. He want to make Ichigo give up/lose hope quickly, so he won't be able to make a come back if he got defeated. But, Orihime was there to boost Ichigo's will power. So I think it was Orihime's presence that was bad in that situation.

[Ganshou-dono]

Originally Posted by kakakka

I think it's psychological. He want to make Ichigo give up/lose hope quickly, so he won't be able to make a come back if he got defeated. But, Orihime was there to boost Ichigo's will power. So I think it was Orihime's presence that was bad in that situation.

orihime's presence is always bad

[Marcus H.]

Hax is the perfect term. Orihime always activates Ichigo's "lucky bastard" or "god-killing" god mode.

[ShinAkuma135]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Hax is the perfect term. Orihime always activates Ichigo's "lucky bastard" or "god-killing" god mode.

god knows what'll happen if she gives him a happy ending...and then stops at the last second. Heh, there's an idea for what to do for aizen

[kakakka]

LOL

Hax...Its always been in this manga (as far as I know), so there should be no surprise there.

Anyway, I think I'm digging too much here, but I'm reading some of the past chapters, and I read that Ulquiorra already acknowledged that Ichigo is stronger than him if Ichigo pushed himself to the limits. So, I think Ulquiorra's way of fighting Ichigo (psychological) might not have been a bad idea, since if Ichigo lose interest to fight, he won't reach his potential to kill/defeat Ulquiorra. Also, Ulquiorra being defeated, its shouldn't have been much of a surprised since he already hinted it himself since his first appearance.

[Anubis3200]

I had decided to re-read Ulquiorra/Ichigo fight and... damn! I wasn't able to do it because of constant black, white pages with big walls, smokes and explosions which averagely took about 4 pages of each chapter if not more @_@

I really hope that animation team will do better job there... and after seeing it... it makes me appricate captain fights much more now...

Besides the more often I look at this fight the more I start to get a feeling that Kubo didn't know how to finish their fight and how to make it look
Since it is the only battle with so many unneeded and wasted panels and pages... no wonder we got monster Ichigo in the end! Kubo must have gotten tired and decided "Hell with this fight! I have no idea what to do! I'll better make another monster and end it quickly!"

[WONDERMIKE]

I have to say that the Lust chapters are top-notch from an artistic standpoint(imo) and I had the impression Kubo gave all he got when he was drawing those pages. Maybe that's the reason why the battle lacked the choreography we have seen at sougyoku hill, he lost himself in the drawings?