Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[zalem]

Well, yeah. Gundams tend to have more interesting gimmicks than the VFs. The VFs are rather ordinary in that regard (though I suppose as you said, more realistic in a way). As for design, well it depends on the design. It's a matter of taste. I'm extremely partial to Freedom and Strike Freedom myself. In 00 I think mecha designs for season one were much better than season 2. The Gundams, Enacts, and Flags were all very cool designs. But in season 2 the designs are definitely not that pleasant. Much bulkier and blocky. I heard that they did this so that it would make the mecha easier to animate. It would cut down costs and perhaps make them rely on stock footage less (which was always the bane of Gundam Seed). MF's VFs are beautifully designed. I have much love for the VF-27 (and damnit, I still want my model kit). All and all, for designs MF probably beats 00 just because 00's second season designs are atrocious. If they were more like s1 than it might be closer for me.

MF isn't free of using stock footage either. So it's far from perfect, but it still isn't nearly as bad as GS/GSD's use of stock footage. Animation-wise the fights in MF are prettier than 00. Which is why I did vote for MF in the animation category of the animesuki 2008 anime poll.

Gundam does do lots of 1 on 1 (the big final battles are always 1 on 1), but don't forget Kira's Freedom/Strike Freedom can take out many enemy units at once. Which of course, is what leads to all the whining about beam spam and god-mode and whatever other nonsense people can think up of. *coughs* Sorry, that's a sore point for me. I dislike Kira-bashing.

[March]

Though I love the Valkyries, Gundam has the disadvantage of overexposure. The mecha designs of Gundam 00 are top notch in my opinion, but it's easy to overdose. We see Gundams all the time since there is always a Gundam sequel being released. So the Gundams lose some of their uniqueness due to familiarity. I'm a casual Gundam fan at best, so I find I'm able to dismiss the less innovative mobile suit designs and appreciate when a truly new and innovative motif appears in the franchise, as it has in the case of Gundam 00.

Macross is more of a once-in-a-while franchise, so the Valkyries of Macross feel more unique and innovative by comparison. Instead of the incremental steps in between the more numerous Gundam designs, the Valkyries are substantial visual design leaps from each previous generation. The Macross Frontier-era Valkyries are very different from the Macross Plus-era Valkyries which are very different from the SDF Macross-era Valkyries. Also, the Valkyries have always been more "mechanical" and less "humanoid" looking than their counterparts in other mecha anime. Remove scale and a Valkyrie rarely looks like a suit of armor; it almost always looks like a robot. Remove scale from some of the Gundams and they could easily be a soldier in armor, like The Master Chief. Some call that a strength; others call it a weakness. I love it, but I've always enjoyed the broad range of Japanese anime mechanical design, from Macross and Gundam to Five Star Stories and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Personally, I think both Macross Frontier and Gundam 00 achieved great success in the area of mechanical design. As a mecha fan, mechanical design in anime hasn't been this good for a very long time. I love the smoother, more linear design motifs of the Gundams in 00 and I love the aerodynamic, highly detailed styles of the Valkyries from Frontier. Nothing but love for my part

[justavisitor]

I agree very much with zalem and March's comment about mecha design between Gundam and Macross

Just want to add a bit that in my opinion, the 3 modes of VF (fighter, Gerwalk, and robot) are the strength and weakness of the VF series...those 3 modes define the mecha from macross, so everytime we see those 3 modes, especially Gerwalk, we know it's from macross, but at the same time, VF series cannot distinguish itself from other VF fighter...unless you are a macross fan, all those VF look somewhat the same and lacks some identity. Gundam series would lose its identity and uniqueness too if every Gundam is composed of core fighter, top half and bottom half

@zalem
In fact i enjoy Kira beam spamming and god-mode lol..the main downfall of GSD is not plot, god mode, spamming mode, Kira stealing spotlight etc...the main downfall of GSD in my opinion is those shameless re-used scene, recap episode, and same meteor ending like GS. People become picky when a supposedly big mecha show cannot even satisfy their eyes XD

[zalem]

I was actually rewatching some of GS and GSD the other day and I had to keep fast forwarding the flashback scenes. That's another weak point for both of them. But the use of stock footage. Jesus, you'd see the same damn stock footage used SEVERAL times in one episode. That's pretty bad. And the recap episodes...ugh. At least when Code Geass did recaps it never took away from the actual series. You'd still get 25 episodes of the series plus the extra two recaps. Plus there weren't nearly as many. I don't think 00 has recaps (at least I don't remember any).

MF only had one slightly recap-like episode, episode 15. That one was tolerable at least. There was some new material (the song-duel) that made it a bit fun.

GSD's ultimate downfall for me was that ending though. It was a rip off the GS ending only much less exciting because it was so blatantly one-sided in Freedom, Justice and Akatsuki's favor. Still GSD was entertaining at times. I'm still looking forward to the new GS/D movie.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I actually find Crusaders posts for Macross Frontier to be very well thought out, cogent and direct to the point.



Since your argument basically is "I feel like it, I don´t have a better explanation", I think it is settled.

That's because he doesn't listen to or consider anything else before going in and writing his posts. They are indeed very direct to the point as a result of how narrow his viewpoint actually is when you get down to it, but don't try to convince me that his posts are anything even approaching well thought out. If ever there was a more biased, single-minded and narrow viewpoint that is still actively writing then I have yet to see it.

And if anything there's an appeal to people's tendency to just fall in line behind everything he says in his posts as opposed to any sort of appeal to logic or reason. Seeing as you're a huge Sheryl fan and seem to share everything in common with him with regard to how you view Macross I am not surprised that you would find his writing informative since everyone loves to feel that they have had what they think they already know as fact reconfirmed. Except the problem with Crusader is that his idea of fact and reality is whatever he says it is, which to me comes across as a load of crap mixed with hot air and a tendency towards non sequitirs. If that's how you like your blog posts written then so be it. I however choose to view his posts not as informative or witty, but as a comedy series with himself at the centre of the joke.

Your sole claim to me not having a good explanation is in your tendency to dismiss it because you can't accept that Sheryl's portrayal might have been botched in at least a few key regards. As I said I knew what they were going for at all points, I just felt that the execution of Sheryl's portrayal could have been handled a lot better and that she was sending mixed messages with regard to her reactions. If you just take it at what they were obviously going for then yes her character does mostly work fine, but if you take what we actually got and really look at it, I felt it was awkward. Nonetheless there's no accounting for feel and I gave you my explanation too, I don't expect you to agree with it, but this is settled.

[March]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I agree very much with zalem and March's comment about mecha design between Gundam and Macross

Just want to add a bit that in my opinion, the 3 modes of VF (fighter, Gerwalk, and robot) are the strength and weakness of the VF series...those 3 modes define the mecha from macross, so everytime we see those 3 modes, especially Gerwalk, we know it's from macross, but at the same time, VF series cannot distinguish itself from other VF fighter...unless you are a macross fan, all those VF look somewhat the same and lacks some identity. Gundam series would lose its identity and uniqueness too if every Gundam is composed of core fighter, top half and bottom half

Oh come on, that's selling Macross short. Might as well say all Gundams look alike because they are colored white, blue, red and yellow.

Seriously, let's be honest; the VF-1 Valkyrie doesn't look any more like the VF-25 Messiah than the original RX-78-2 Gundam looks like the Gundam Exia. About the only case that could be made is the VF-1 Valkyrie vs. the VF-0 Phoenix, and is that really any different than comparing the original RX-78-2 Gundam to the RX-78NT-1 Gundam Alex? No.

Spoiler for 1,200 wide Valkyrie comparison picture:

I will grant you that most people can't tell the difference between an F-15 Eagle and an F-18 Hornet. But we're all mecha fans here and any mecha fan worth his salt can tell the difference between the Valkyrie/Gundam generations. Hell, even a non-fan can distinguish between an old mechanical design and a new mechanical design. Ask any one what looks better; the RX-78-2 Gundam or the Gundam Exia? Nine times out of ten they'll choose the Exia.

[justavisitor]

@March

When I said ppl couldn't tell the difference, I was thinking about fighter form...now I think back..I may exaggerate a bit...and then I look at your pic of robot form...i realize i made a big mistake in my last post lol...you are right man

Now let me take a guess at those VFs in the pic you post without looking at any reference XD From left to right
VF-0, VF-1, anti-un in macross zero??,vf-4,yf-19, yf-21, vf-171??,vf-25

I hope I am right lol and they indeed look cool (especially yf-19 XD)

Edit:
damn, that is Vf-17, not 171...well i haven't watched macross 7......

[Tak]

Originally Posted by March

Oh come on, that's selling Macross short. Might as well say all Gundams look alike because they are colored white, blue, red and yellow.

Not to mention they all have nearly the same exact head

Originally Posted by zalem

Tytania better than 00? Personally, I don't think so. The Fan side of the story is so weak that it really brings the series down.

Quite true. See, Tytania is not one of Tanaka's best novels, and I never liked it as much as his other works. The main character is basically a mix of Poplan and Yang, while his Tytanian counterpart is basically a carbon copy of Reinhard. So far, I am just a casual viewer of Tytania, and I doubt it'd be one of my all-time favorites anytime soon.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Now let me take a guess at those VFs in the pic you post without looking at any reference XD From left to right
VF-0, VF-1, anti-union in macross zero??,vf-4,yf-19, yf-21, vf-171??,vf-25

Well then, that was a pleasant surprise. Ok, you did make one mistake, that was not the VF-171, but the VF-17 Nightmare from Macross 7. Though I am not surprised you got it wrong, because its from that one Macross you should avoid watching.

- Tak

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Tak

Quite true. See, Tytania is not one of Tanaka's best novels, and I never liked it as much as his other works. The main character is basically a mix of Poplan and Yang, while his Tytanian counterpart is basically a carbon copy of Reinhard. So far, I am just a casual viewer of Tytania, and I doubt it'd be one of my all-time favorites anytime soon.

- Tak

He seems to think so too as he more or less abandoned it like...what is it now, 16 years ago? And you can blame Ookawara for the fact that a lot of Gundam's tend to look a lot alike between the series with only some minor aesthetic changes. The Valkyries can also sort of get away with looking similar across the various Macross series since they are a part of the same model line. The VF series.

[March]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

@March

When I said ppl couldn't tell the difference, I was thinking about fighter form...now I think back..I may exaggerate a bit...and then I look at your pic of robot form...i realize i made a big mistake in my last post lol...you are right man

Now let me take a guess at those VFs in the pic you post without looking at any reference XD From left to right
VF-0, VF-1, anti-un in macross zero??,vf-4,yf-19, yf-21, vf-171??,vf-25

I hope I am right lol and they indeed look cool (especially yf-19 XD)

Edit:
damn, that is Vf-17, not 171...well i haven't watched macross 7......

Looks like you got them all right, except for confusing the terminology of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus for the VF-17 Nightmare that Tak mentioned. But I obviously understand that one, since they are meant to be alike as the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is an "extended service life" version of the original VF-17D Nightmare.

I suppose fighters might be harder for some to distinguish, but I have to say in all honesty and fairness, I still think that's a stretch. If all you see is wings, engines and a nose, then every robot should just be legs, arms and a head. But I guess we get out what we put in.

Originally Posted by Tak

Not to mention they all have nearly the same exact head

- Tak

Yeah, but it's cool that way. The Gundam head unit is like the Batman cowl. It's so iconic now that they have to include the trademark elements, even if each Gundam's head looks a little too much like the last. At least Gundam 00 took a more rounded, linear approach to the head units, something that's never been done before with the Gundam head.

[justavisitor]

@Tak

I watched a clip from youtube before deciding whether to watch macross 7 or not...then I saw the main character used a guitar to control VF-19...I probably have a narrow-mind but it really drives me away from the show...come on, at least use a proper control to pilot a plane....

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

He seems to think so too as he more or less abandoned it like...what is it now, 16 years ago?

Yeah, thus it is not difficult to imagine my surprise when I first learned about an animated version being produced.

I was like... wuh? How you gonna conclude that?

- Tak

[March]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

@Tak

I watched a clip from youtube before deciding whether to watch macross 7 or not...then I saw the main character used a guitar to control VF-19...I probably have a narrow-mind but it really drives me away from the show...come on, at least use a proper control to pilot a plane....

I definitely can't blame you. Macross 7 isn't exactly Macross' finest hour

[zalem]

Hey, stop all this M7 hate! Basara was amusing and the music was catchy.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

That's because he doesn't listen to or consider anything else before going in and writing his posts. They are indeed very direct to the point as a result of how narrow his viewpoint actually is when you get down to it, but don't try to convince me that his posts are anything even approaching well thought out. If ever there was a more biased, single-minded and narrow viewpoint that is still actively writing then I have yet to see it.

And if anything there's an appeal to people's tendency to just fall in line behind everything he says in his posts as opposed to any sort of appeal to logic or reason. Seeing as you're a huge Sheryl fan and seem to share everything in common with him with regard to how you view Macross I am not surprised that you would find his writing informative since everyone loves to feel that they have had what they think they already know as fact reconfirmed. Except the problem with Crusader is that his idea of fact and reality is whatever he says it is, which to me comes across as a load of crap mixed with hot air and a tendency towards non sequitirs. If that's how you like your blog posts written then so be it. I however choose to view his posts not as informative or witty, but as a comedy series with himself at the centre of the joke.

While I certainly don´t agree with everything he writes ( his fake germanization of terms is to me, a German, mildly amusing at best ), his points in regards to Macross F are well thought out, because he goes deeper into the relationships and psyches of the main characters, than I´ve seen lots of other people do. If he is right is of course in the eye of the beholder. I find myself agreeing with his points, after doing the analysis myself, so take that for what its worth.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Your sole claim to me not having a good explanation is in your tendency to dismiss it because you can't accept that Sheryl's portrayal might have been botched in at least a few key regards. As I said I knew what they were going for at all points, I just felt that the execution of Sheryl's portrayal could have been handled a lot better and that she was sending mixed messages with regard to her reactions. If you just take it at what they were obviously going for then yes her character does mostly work fine, but if you take what we actually got and really look at it, I felt it was awkward. Nonetheless there's no accounting for feel and I gave you my explanation too, I don't expect you to agree with it, but this is settled.

I refuted your talking points on a point by point basis, you never even tried to answer to that. So, yeah, if you can´t do better than mischaracterize what I did, then let´s keep it settled.

[ReddyRedWolf]

I'll just leave this here.

Spoiler for VF-25 Fire Valkyrie?:

From Macross Ace.

[CaptGloval]

WTF?! Is that Basara? (I wouldn't be surprised if it's Ozma.)

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Bwuh?! Ozma cosplaying as Basara?!!! I... Don't want to hear another "Ore no Uta" Crap!

[March]

Ozma Nekki or Basara Lee? Disturbing, this is

[magnuskn]

Uh, what exactly is Macross Ace? ^^