Methods and Possibilities for Defeating Accelerator [Speculation]

[Draco Spirit]

Most simple method to take him out the good old poisoned food/drink trick. Direct attacks are pointless and self defeating. Therefore you need to use attacks that don't rely on vectors.

[Chaos2Frozen]

He can do calculations and control on a molecular level.

He did rewrite a brain after all.

[dniv]

I don't think Accelerator would lose in his strongest form straight and simple.

Spoiler for Volume 2 of New Testament Index Light Novels :

Having the ability to use magic at the cost of only sweating isn't that bad. Also, @Weifriback, using magic and suffering effects is different from being affected by someone else using magic. Since he seems to be one of the only characters other than Aleister who might be able to freely learn to use magic, I am guessing he could become a strong magician. It did saw that magic involved imaginary vectors that he could figure out at great cost. But Birdway taught him to use it.

@Ilidsor I don't think he could lose. We have the power level chart after all. I'm guessing that's a somewhat ranking of esper abilities. We realize that Accelerator was most likely

Spoiler for Season 3 of Index:

stronger than Eztali

which means that it is not true that magic is more powerful than esper abilities.

If it were, why even learn esper abilities? (I guess if you don't know about magic... but then the esper side wouldn't be as strong as it is... maybe... I don't know.

I feel like Accelerator could be beaten via a simple method:

Spoiler for episode 15 Railgun S maybe :

show him MISAKA clones have emotions

@Chaos: yes. BTW: what I said is probably the only way of beating him now if he were trying his hardest.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

He can do calculations and control on a molecular level.

He did rewrite a brain after all.

True, but that used up so much of his calculation ability he couldn't even reflect one bullet. With the sister's network only able to reach 50% of Accelerator's calculation ability, he might not be able to perform vector manipulation on a molecular level.

Winged Accelerator is probably a different story.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Hmm not really, attacks with vectors (including magic) can work. He doesn't just reflect (or redirect) everything with a vector. If there was a "setting" for that, he couldn't breathe or see (or even hold a glass or something, you saw what happened just by placing his foot on someone's chest with reflection on). So clearly he has his reflection set up specifically for everything, therefore if you could hit him with something he didn't know existed or what it was, it wouldn't get auto reflected even if it had a vector. So there is a clearly exploitable weakness... in theory, though where Mikoto could get something even if she knew about it is another story.

Actually he does have a setting for "reflect everything" (which does have the draw back you describe) he even has a setting for "reflect everything except for specific exceptions" and that is his usual default setting before being injured.

It's not that Accelerator is unbeatable, just that for most people beating him requires a non-reflectable attack with surprise and speed sufficient to defeat Accelerator before he figures out how to counter it. An attack that confuses Accelerator (such as magic) is a plus.

Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:

Fiamma is the only one I can think of besides Touma who might be able to bypass Accelerator's defenses entirely without a way for Accelerator to counter. Even that depends on whether his two "I Win" attacks have vectors.

My guess is that "The strike that reaches everything when swung" probably does have some complicated vectors, and that Accelerator could probably counter it after seeing it in action once or twice. "The strike that ends everything it touches" probably doesn't have any direct vectors, but it's possible that after it touches you the destruction it causes might have vectors. In which case Accelerator might be able to prevent his full destruction. Otherwise it's a one hit kill against Accelerator.

Of course I guess there was that nonsense about faking out Accelerator's reflection so that he beats up himself. (Why didn't Accelerator just turn his reflection off? That whole thing made no sense - but it just goes to show how desperate the author was to figure out some way to hurt Accelerator).

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:

Of course I guess there was that nonsense about faking out Accelerator's reflection so that he beats up himself. (Why didn't Accelerator just turn his reflection off? That whole thing made no sense - but it just goes to show how desperate the author was to figure out some way to hurt Accelerator).

Right, just grade as "bad writing" whatever you don't agree with/understand and problem solved. "Great argument!". [/facepalm]

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Actually he does have a setting for "reflect everything" (which does have the draw back you describe) he even has a setting for "reflect everything except for specific exceptions" and that is his usual default setting before being injured.

It's not that Accelerator is unbeatable, just that for most people beating him requires a non-reflectable attack with surprise and speed sufficient to defeat Accelerator before he figures out how to counter it. An attack that confuses Accelerator (such as magic) is a plus.

Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:

Fiamma is the only one I can think of besides Touma who might be able to bypass Accelerator's defenses entirely without a way for Accelerator to counter. Even that depends on whether his two "I Win" attacks have vectors.

My guess is that "The strike that reaches everything when swung" probably does have some complicated vectors, and that Accelerator could probably counter it after seeing it in action once or twice. "The strike that ends everything it touches" probably doesn't have any direct vectors, but it's possible that after it touches you the destruction it causes might have vectors. In which case Accelerator might be able to prevent his full destruction. Otherwise it's a one hit kill against Accelerator.

Of course I guess there was that nonsense about faking out Accelerator's reflection so that he beats up himself. (Why didn't Accelerator just turn his reflection off? That whole thing made no sense - but it just goes to show how desperate the author was to figure out some way to hurt Accelerator).

Spoiler for volume 22:

given that he survived all that Telesma I find it unlikely Fiamma could do anything to him. He was surprised him and Kazakiri were able to resist his attack. Granted Kazakiri did a lot of the work there so it wasn't just Accelerator's prowess that held him in check.

I think Accelerator is well-balanced. My favorite power in this series is IB for hopefully obvious reasons. Accelerator is partially so powerful after all because of the experiments. I think though that he was really strong when he was younger as well (to a point) [spoiler=episode 15] remember the flashback when he was a kid with Aiho... enough said. [/episode 15]

I am pretty sure that Accelerator has one of the richest character developments in Index. His one major weakness

Spoiler for post railgun S and somewhat during Railgun S:

after this arc is his compassion towards the clones and namely to anyone defenseless

He is sort of like Mikoto in that he will dish out his own vigilante justice to punish any criminals

Spoiler for LN volume 14:

like a true villain would

. Accelerator is really one of my favorite characters here for this reason. He's very interesting. (I'm not sure if that last part should be moved to his character discussion... I'll just rewrite it there I guess...

[Haigon]

Originally Posted by dniv

Spoiler for volume 22:

given that he survived all that Telesma I find it unlikely Fiamma could do anything to him. He was surprised him and Kazakiri were able to resist his attack. Granted Kazakiri did a lot of the work there so it wasn't just Accelerator's prowess that held him in check.

Spoiler for volume 22:

You're considering him in his greatest form (angel wings)

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:

Of course I guess there was that nonsense about faking out Accelerator's reflection so that he beats up himself. (Why didn't Accelerator just turn his reflection off? That whole thing made no sense - but it just goes to show how desperate the author was to figure out some way to hurt Accelerator).

Spoiler for Reply to spoiler:

I have no idea why some people can't understand this. Accelerator can't turn off his reflection. It's a part of his personal reality. Something he does subconsciously. He can be so busy calculating something that it gets turned off temporarily but as soon as that's done it comes right back.

It's like asking Mikoto and Misaka Imouto why they don't just stop generating electricity if they want to pet cats. They aren't doing it because they want to, they're doing it because they have to.

[Micropod]

Even if he can solve poisons and stuff with vectors what if what is delivered in the food is not poison but miniature explosives?

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Right, just grade as "bad writing" whatever you don't agree with/understand and problem solved. "Great argument!". [/facepalm]

1: That was bad writing. Please provide justification for how that could possibly work.

2: This franchise is infamous for its horrible writing. Have you tried to actually read the Light Novels? They are quite possibly the worse written books I have ever read. Show don't tell is regularly violated, the structure is awful and mind numbing, the plots are full of holes and filled with reams of scotch tape. The Sisters Arc is one of the few decent plots.

I don't read this stuff for the writing quality, I come for the incredible world building, and interesting characters.

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Spoiler for Reply to spoiler:

I have no idea why some people can't understand this. Accelerator can't turn off his reflection. It's a part of his personal reality. Something he does subconsciously. He can be so busy calculating something that it gets turned off temporarily but as soon as that's done it comes right back.

It's like asking Mikoto and Misaka Imouto why they don't just stop generating electricity if they want to pet cats. They aren't doing it because they want to, they're doing it because they have to.

Spoiler for Later events:

Then how did he get shot? Obviously he can turn reflection off because he did turn it off. Also he turns it off so that he can breath doesn't he?

Originally Posted by Micropod

Even if he can solve poisons and stuff with vectors what if what is delivered in the food is not poison but miniature explosives?

Still vectors.

Fast acting poison might work though, because it could disable him before he has a chance to manipulate the vectors. Since that would need more then simple reflection.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by dniv

Spoiler for volume 22:

given that he survived all that Telesma I find it unlikely Fiamma could do anything to him. He was surprised him and Kazakiri were able to resist his attack. Granted Kazakiri did a lot of the work there so it wasn't just Accelerator's prowess that held him in check.

That's very....off the mark

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Spoiler for Later events:

Then how did he get shot? Obviously he can turn reflection off because he did turn it off. Also he turns it off so that he can breath doesn't he?

...Are you trolling here? Because I literally just explained why that happened in the post you are responding to. He didn't 'turn it off' he was so busy calculating something else he didn't have the spare calculation to make it work by default like it normally does.

It's explained why he can breath and stuff so many times it's not even funny so I'm not even going to bother replying to that.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Without spoiling much, teleportation does have vectors.

It's been argued whether Kuroko's teleportation works with the same principle, but the safest assumption is to say it does too.

Regardless, Mikoto would never involve Kuroko with such a dangerous thing, not to mention ask her to kill anyone, for all that matters.

The problem is that, as I understand it, Accelerator cannot control vectors from distance, he needs to touch something in order to change its vectors.

So the point with teleportation, whether it has a vector or not, is that when Accelerator exactly enters in contact with a teleported object?

The episode of the glasses in Toaru Kagaku in my opinion should have never existed, because it simply makes Kuroko practically unbeatable.
For a glass to cut a column made of reinforced concrete there's no getting around it, it must have literally materialized directly in place, it would have never worked otherwise.

The only way to justify a way for Accelerator to survive that is by some kind of convoluted pseudo-scientific explanation, like "teleportation creates some kind of invisible gate on the destination first which Accelerator can deflect".


But then again Sackett is right, it's probably better to not think too much, there's too much stuff that doesn't quite make sense.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The problem is that, as I understand it, Accelerator cannot control vectors from distance, he needs to touch something in order to change its vectors.

So the point with teleportation, whether it has a vector or not, is that when Accelerator exactly enters in contact with a teleported object?

The episode of the glasses in Toaru Kagaku in my opinion should have never existed, because it simply makes Kuroko practically unbeatable.
For a glass to cut a column made of reinforced concrete there's no getting around it, it must have literally materialized directly in place, it would have never worked otherwise.

The only way to justify a way for Accelerator to survive that is by some kind of convoluted pseudo-scientific explanation, like "teleportation creates some kind of invisible gate on the destination first which Accelerator can deflect".
.

Teleportation in this series works by having the espers move an object through the elventh dimension. Now I'm not a mathematician or a physicist so I don't really know what that means in detail but regardless it allows me to understand how Accel can reflect teleportation. Basically when it's about to return from the eleventh dimension to our normal three directions it has to interact with him. Therefore he can deflect it when it starts to interact with him. We never see this happen but we know it causes a 'strange phenomenon' to happen

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

That's very....off the mark

???

This isn't wrong; at least I think so. I'm only talking about

Spoiler for volume 22, NT 7:

when he has the halo at his strongest form. He seemed to be above winged Rensa's level so I don't think he could be beaten by Fiamma

, but of course I might be wrong I guess....

@Sackett I think you're mistaking with the light novel. The reason the light novel is not as great as you would like it is because it is translated to english unprofessionally. BT does a great job and the translators are great, but it's hard or impossible to translate a book close to as near as well as a the original Japanese version. When the author uses character names and events and kanji that have multiple layered meanings, it is impossible to use english to show this. It's a weakness of the English language. I speak 4 languages and 3 fluently, so I recognize some of the weaknesses of English compared to other languages. Here... you have to realize that Kamachi's novels are most likely written much better than what you have seen. We don't see the original version... you do understand that... The same author does the railgun manga after all. It's just that the railgun manga volumes sold in the US were done via a professional translation and even the volumes online were done pretty well and there is much less to translate per chapter, but the volumes sold are probably slightly better done anyway because they are obviously professional compared to people who are doing it that are not being paid.

The series is a lot better than what you read online. Most people on the English wiki can only look at translations that are made in order to understand it. I'm taking Japanese next year and for a while longer than that and want to learn it (well for many reasons), but partially to be able to understand anime/manga/LNs completely. You have to realize that it's not in its perfect form.

However, what Ilidsor was certainly true here.

Spoiler for Accelerator facial features explanation and power explanation:

Accelerator doesn't have red eyes and white pigmented skin on purpose. He would have to consciously turn of his reflection in order to let sunlight reach his eyes and skin. This is why he looks albino. The way his personal reality works is that it filters out possibly harmful stuff but subconsciously always lets him not reflect things that don't bother him, the floor. He uses his ability 100% of the time... so this isn't that hard to imagine. He just can't turn off his ability manually. It's a real downside to being so powerful... This is an important fact to keep in mind for later

.

Anyway, you guys seem to be trashing what's going on. Talking about Accelerator during Railgun S... he is initially pretty strong. We can obviously tell this when he beats Mikoto thoroughly. I want to re-iterate here that it was his first time battling another level 5 when he fought her. He didn't know she was that weak. He wasn't just trying to insult her. He didn't actually know about her powers... but he purposely didn't use railgun to send it back at her and destroy her via reflect...

I think Accelerator can most easily be beaten now because of his extreme arrogance because he has always won all of his fights easily seemingly without even being touched. I'm guessing damaging his ego is a good first step to win... anyway...

@Sackett:

Spoiler for Index II:

You also misunderstand one thing. Amata trained Accelerator's powers so that they would have those defects. Amata obviously trained his esper development so that he would have weaknesses. That's totally credible. If Accelerator wasn't aware of this, then it makes perfect sense how it would work. It's totally possible that trick only worked with Amata because Amata was the one who trained it... just saying. So I don't think it's a cop out.

I don't feel like Railgun S has bad writing either... It's the same writer for both... so if you criticize one... you are kind of criticizing the other... ....

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Sackett

1: That was bad writing. Please provide justification for how that could possibly work.

Spoiler for Light Novel:

Accelerator's reflection is a trained ability (contrary to what Ilidisor said), but it's on the level that it's a reflex.

He can't easily turn it off because he does it automatically (unless he uses the chocker, but that goes with the rest of his abilities). He would need to retrain his brain to do so. As it is, it requires an effort to modify it. He probably can turn it off altogether with a greater effort, but who knows how much power that could take?

For the examples you gave Ilidisor, against Amai it was suppressed from using all his concentration on LO. Think about how you would normally raise your arms to protect your face from an incoming object (a reflex all right), but you might not be able to do that if you have your hands occupied at the time.

Now, on his fight against Amata, it took him a while to understand how he was able to hit him, with little time left he tried to modify his reflection on the go, but Amata predicted his changes... ok, that might be a bit deus ex, but it's not that bad since Accelerator was under a lot of pressure there, I'd say he could have some tells that Amata knows (though I don't think something like that was mentioned).

About the breathing, he doesn't turn it off for that. Air is one of the things that he excluded from the reflection, along with visible light, when he trained the ability. So he doesn't turn it off to breathe (it's those exclusions what Kakine tried to take advantage of during their first fight)

Originally Posted by Sackett

2: This franchise is infamous for its horrible writing. Have you tried to actually read the Light Novels? They are quite possibly the worse written books I have ever read. Show don't tell is regularly violated, the structure is awful and mind numbing, the plots are full of holes and filled with reams of scotch tape. The Sisters Arc is one of the few decent plots.

I think that's an exaggeration, but I won't say that writing is perfect.

Nonetheless, that's no excuse to put a dark glass on everything and think by default that the narrative is bad and whatever you don't agree with is the author's fault. You could at least make an effort to read carefully and try to understand those parts before passing them as defective.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Accelerator's reflection is a trained ability (contrary to what Ilidisor said), but it's on the level that it's a reflex.

I don't think it's trained. He's had it since he was a child, before he got involved in the 'darkness' of AC. It's 'trained' in the sense that he only got it when he became an esper but from what we have seen it's an inherent part of his power.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by dniv

@Sackett I think you're mistaking with the light novel. The reason the light novel is not as great as you would like it is because it is translated to english unprofessionally. BT does a great job and the translators are great, but it's hard or impossible to translate a book close to as near as well as a the original Japanese version. When the author uses character names and events and kanji that have multiple layered meanings, it is impossible to use english to show this. It's a weakness of the English language. I speak 4 languages and 3 fluently, so I recognize some of the weaknesses of English compared to other languages. Here... you have to realize that Kamachi's novels are most likely written much better than what you have seen. We don't see the original version... you do understand that... The same author does the railgun manga after all. It's just that the railgun manga volumes sold in the US were done via a professional translation and even the volumes online were done pretty well and there is much less to translate per chapter, but the volumes sold are probably slightly better done anyway because they are obviously professional compared to people who are doing it that are not being paid.

If Sackett were talking about 'bad writing' in terms of language, then I'll second this somewhat due to translation challenges. And also, while 'show-tell' is ideal, sometimes, there are times when I don't see how it can be done for certain parts.

But if Sackett were talking about plot problems, then I somewhat agree with him. The power levels do get a little messed up and nonsensical at some point. But then again, it's hard to find a series with concrete plot-hole-less (in a pseudo sense in terms of plausability) explanations when the world-view becomes huge. Mahouka is still by far the best in giving me satisfying explanations to the world mechanics, though even that too became debatable when it touches bio-chemical stuff (specifically restoration on bodies lolz), where the author seems to lack sufficient knowledge in. Problem is authors can't be experts in each and every field that their story is going to touch on.

So the conclusion is that it's best not to think too much on these things

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by dniv

???

This isn't wrong; at least I think so. I'm only talking about

Spoiler for volume 22, NT 7:

when he has the halo at his strongest form. He seemed to be above winged Rensa's level so I don't think he could be beaten by Fiamma

, but of course I might be wrong I guess....

Can't actually answer because it's spoilers but

Spoiler for Index stuff:

In the first place, that Fiamma was highly highly drained of power and still, Accelerator got knocked out