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Old 2014-10-17, 19:51   Link #11841
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
That's only a concern if it's in space.
Why? With the DRAGOONs attached, it can be independently transferred to another ship.
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... no it doesn't. At that point it's only holding the machine back. It has greater surface area with full access to the wings of light than it does with the DRAGOONs covering the emitters. You're trying to say that it's better off with using the DRAGOONs in-atmosphere when it's not.
I'm saying that the DRAGOONs can still be used as part of HiMAT without any serious drawback, with the pilot still having an option of discarding them if necessary.
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Your comparison falls short when you consider that the mirage colloid effect is completely useless on a machine and a waste of energy. It showed absolutely no benefit to the Destiny in the anime, whereas none of the many other VL-system mobile suits ever made use of it. Secondly, I'm not saying that the VL is replacing the HiMAT system. It cannot, because it is effectively a part of it. It is only improving the system with its use, which is a concept you seemingly fail to understand.



I just don't understand where you're coming from. What you're saying is like that if you remove the DRAGOON units, you're removing the HiMAT system entirely. That's not how it works.
Removing the DRAGOONs would change the shape of the wings, so it should affect the HiMAT system.
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Old 2014-10-17, 19:58   Link #11842
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Why? With the DRAGOONs attached, it can be independently transferred to another ship.
And that's supposed to mean... what, exactly?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm saying that the DRAGOONs can still be used as part of HiMAT without any serious drawback, with the pilot still having an option of discarding them if necessary.
Deliberately holding back the machine's full potential is a drawback, and incredibly stupid on the pilot's behalf aside.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Removing the DRAGOONs would change the shape of the wings, so it should affect the HiMAT system.
Of course it's going to affect the HiMAT System. Christ, you're switching between spectrum ends. You say it's not at all a problem that Kira can adapt to something's changes instantly without any aid "because that's how the show depicted it", yet you protest this minor a change? Make up your damn mind.
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Old 2014-10-17, 20:36   Link #11843
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And that's supposed to mean... what, exactly?
That the unit will be more independent and be at full capacity at any given moment with all of its equipment than without.
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Deliberately holding back the machine's full potential is a drawback, and incredibly stupid on the pilot's behalf aside.
There is no holding back of anything. The DRAGOONs are utilized for HiMAT, which is more than enough against most opponents. But if the pilot feels the VL system is needed at full power, it can always discard the DRAGOONs.
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Of course it's going to affect the HiMAT System. Christ, you're switching between spectrum ends. You say it's not at all a problem that Kira can adapt to something's changes instantly without any aid "because that's how the show depicted it", yet you protest this minor a change? Make up your damn mind.
What? Are you recalling a past discussion which I am not remembering for the moment?
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Old 2014-10-17, 20:45   Link #11844
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That the unit will be more independent and be at full capacity at any given moment with all of its equipment than without.
While that makes sense, that's not an intended usage of the Strike Freedom, which was still meant to be used with a support warship. If Kira finds himself having to operate alone with the Strike Freedom, he'll have far more pressing concerns. It's not like it's a Celestial Being mobile suit, designed to operate on its own for long periods of time.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
There is no holding back of anything. The DRAGOONs are utilized for HiMAT. But if the pilot feels the VL system is needed at full power, it can always discard the DRAGOONs.
If the DRAGOONs are attached, then yes it is holding it back. Jettison them whenever you want, sure, but they should never have been attached in the first place, or jettisoned the moment the battle began. Holding yourself back for the sake of holding yourself back is an incredibly stupid move and frankly Kira should've been beyond such nonsense at that point.

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What? Are you recalling a past discussion which I am not remembering for the moment?
The last time we had a big debate about the Strike Freedom, particularly in Kira's skill level in Destiny. Specifically on how he adjusted to a new mobile suit with a radically different wing formation without any prior experience on how it'd handle in-atmosphere.
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Old 2014-10-17, 21:27   Link #11845
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
While that makes sense, that's not an intended usage of the Strike Freedom, which was still meant to be used with a support warship. If Kira finds himself having to operate alone with the Strike Freedom, he'll have far more pressing concerns. It's not like it's a Celestial Being mobile suit, designed to operate on its own for long periods of time.
It doesn't have to operate alone, just away from its base. Remember, the Strike Freedom was inside the Eternal. Kira then went down to help with Orb. Who knows what will happen to the Eternal in the mean time.
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If the DRAGOONs are attached, then yes it is holding it back. Jettison them whenever you want, sure, but they should never have been attached in the first place, or jettisoned the moment the battle began. Holding yourself back for the sake of holding yourself back is an incredibly stupid move and frankly Kira should've been beyond such nonsense at that point.
Well, I just don't see it as being such a big deal. The Strike Freedom operates very well on Earth with the DRAGOONs attached.
Quote:
The last time we had a big debate about the Strike Freedom, particularly in Kira's skill level in Destiny. Specifically on how he adjusted to a new mobile suit with a radically different wing formation without any prior experience on how it'd handle in-atmosphere.
Ah, well, I wasn't factoring the pilot when talking about the effect of the DRAGOONs as of this recent discussion. In fact, I don't think I ever said that it would actually decrease performance in general, just the HiMAT system.
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Old 2014-10-17, 22:51   Link #11846
shadow1296
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, I just don't see it as being such a big deal. The Strike Freedom operates very well on Earth with the DRAGOONs attached.
the big deal is that the dragoons are useless on earth, they can't be detached, they can't be fired while attached, and the himat wings can function without them perhap even better in earths environment. they are just heavypeices of metal weighing the strike freedom down on earth and holds it back and that is a massive design flaw especially for mobile suit that was clearly designed for earth and space battle
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Old 2014-10-17, 23:10   Link #11847
Deadpool2000
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To be fair, any mobile suit with mobile bits is going to perform worse in the atmosphere than out. That's kind of inevitable.

And it's not like the Strike Freedom is useless on Earth... It keeps up with two of the best mobile suits in the universe without taking damage. It is powerful enough...
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Old 2014-10-17, 23:29   Link #11848
kaito-kid
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There seems to be some misunderstanding about the HiMAT system..
First of all it's 2 things, it's hardware and more importantly, software. By definition HiMAT is actually a software that run's on top of the Gundam OS. According to official info: it an "atmospheric flight configuration". Like that of modern fighter aircraft I guess, except more advanced since the freedom has way more moving parts.

That brings us to the hardware side of things. The HimMAT is not just about giving the mobile suit lift, nor is it about pure speed. It's basically a system that allows the Freedom to make optimal use of it's ion pumps, trusters, and the large wing system (I guess that's the 'main' thing) to twist, turn and brake in a small rotation circle by controlling airflow.

I don't think it's THAT special tbh. All Gundam units must have a system similar to this (especially the ones with wings).. It's just that the Freedom has a separate unit for it..
However, It is probably the best one in CE, since that's what the show illustrates. (despite all the sock-footage)



Now that I think about this.. The HiMAT mode probably requires a shit of computational power to operate. If you think about what it takes to keep a modern aircraft in the air, in comparison the required processing power for a winged Gundam is just mind boggling. But the processing power of the Freedom must be even several times over that since it has a separate system for it.

The VL system, although more impressive, is probably unrelated to the HiMAT. Because software wise it's way less complicated and doesn't requite the same kind of processing power. Therefore It makes sense to assume that's VL is part of the Main OS, like that of Destiny.

VL vs HiMAT is open for debate (I think the original Freedom's HiMAT is the best), but Monster is right in saying that they are two separate things.
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Old 2014-10-17, 23:37   Link #11849
Rising Dragon
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I never said they were the same system, okay? But it doesn't change the fact that VL-System, separate or not, is integrated into the goddamn wings, which open up with the HiMAT system! Why can't you people understand that?
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Old 2014-10-17, 23:47   Link #11850
kuroihikari2
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Yeah, I compare the HiMAT to the fly-by-wire systems on modern not-so-aerodynamic planes. It's a computer that removes the downside of losing maneuverability because of high speed and/or flawed aerodynamic design by taking advantage of more moving lift surfaces.

I'd imagine that with or without the VL, it would still give the SF the same performance in terms of maneuverability. The addition of the VL just makes it faster.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I never said they were the same system, okay? But it doesn't change the fact that VL-System, separate or not, is integrated into the goddamn wings, which open up with the HiMAT system! Why can't you people understand that?
How do you know that the wings can only open up with the HiMAT system?
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Old 2014-10-17, 23:54   Link #11851
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
First of all it's 2 things, it's hardware and more importantly, software. By definition HiMAT is actually a software that run's on top of the Gundam OS. According to official info: it an "atmospheric flight configuration". Like that of modern fighter aircraft I guess, except more advanced since the freedom has way more moving parts.
HiMAT is just a long, fancy, roundabout way of saying "avionics." Only they don't call it the avionics system, because that's boring and familiar and not special enough for the super special super suit. On that note, though, it actually CANNOT run on top of the Gundam OS unless the OS itself is just an abstraction layer, which we know it's not for the simple fact that Kira couldn't even make the Strike move properly without adjusting the OS itself. If the OS were just an abstraction layer or something like a VM, he'd have adjusted each individual driver. From that, we know the OS contains and coordinates all of the system's drivers, for lack of a better word, and you can't run those on top of the OS without some serious lag time, which a MS simply cannot have. Any kind of non real-time system would be suicide.

Quote:
That brings us to the hardware side of things. The HimMAT is not just about giving the mobile suit lift, nor is it about pure speed. It's basically a system that allows the Freedom to make optimal use of it's ion pumps, trusters, and the large wing system (I guess that's the 'main' thing) to twist, turn and brake in a small rotation circle by controlling airflow.
It's called control surfaces and thrust vectoring, kaito.

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Now that I think about this.. The HiMAT mode probably requires a shit of computational power to operate. If you think about what it takes to keep a modern aircraft in the air, in comparison the required processing power for a winged Gundam is just mind boggling. But the processing power of the Freedom must be even several times over that since it has a separate system for it.
You'd be surprised, actually. All the HiMAT is really doing is adjusting the Freedom's control surfaces and thrust vectors. While the physical surfaces might be larger than most of what we have now, a lot of the avoinics (there's that word again...) systems in current and even past jets are beyond complicated yet they still manage(d) to get the job done with far less computational power. The F-117, for example, had to rely on a quadruple-redundant system that kept it in balance in real time despite being inherently aerodynamically unstable.

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The VL system, although more impressive, is probably unrelated to the HiMAT. Because software wise it's way less complicated and doesn't requite the same kind of processing power. Therefore It makes sense to assume that's VL is part of the Main OS, like that of Destiny.

VL vs HiMAT is open for debate (I think the original Freedom's HiMAT is the best), but Monster is right in saying that they are two separate things.
They're two separate things only in the sense that the HiMAT is telling the VL how to operating. VL is just the kind of thrusting system built into the SF's wings. Nothing more and nothing less. The sooner certain people realize this, the sooner we can drop this beyond-dead topic.
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:11   Link #11852
monster
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Originally Posted by shadow1296 View Post
the himat wings can function without them
Except that has never been shown or implied.
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
They're two separate things only in the sense that the HiMAT is telling the VL how to operating.
Was this mentioned somewhere?
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:32   Link #11853
Kuroi Hadou
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Was this mentioned somewhere?
Not explicitly, that I know of at least, but we can imply it based on everything else we've seen in the series. We know from Stargazer that Voiture Lumiere is a type of propulsion system that uses a different means of accelerating than convenional mobile suits. We also know the High Mobility Aerial Tactics system coordinates the suit's control surfaces and thrusters to maneuver the suit. Thrusers can't work without the avionics system telling it where to apply thrust even when they're completely one-directional, at which point they can no longer be used for mobility, and we know the SF's VL thrusters are pointed at something like 45-degree angles all around so they're obiously being used for more than just speed. Either the HiMAT system is controlling the VL to aid in maneuvering, or the VL has nothing to do with maneuvering whatsoever. The latter possibility is just ludicrous.
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:33   Link #11854
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by kuroihikari2 View Post
How do you know that the wings can only open up with the HiMAT system?
What do you think controls the wings in the first place?
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:41   Link #11855
kuroihikari2
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
What do you think controls the wings in the first place?
There could be alternative controls, you know. The HiMAT is not a control system, it's a computer that's attached to the control system.

So again: How do you know that the wings can only open up with the HiMAT system?
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:48   Link #11856
monster
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Not explicitly, that I know of at least, but we can imply it based on everything else we've seen in the series. We know from Stargazer that Voiture Lumiere is a type of propulsion system that uses a different means of accelerating than convenional mobile suits. We also know the High Mobility Aerial Tactics system coordinates the suit's control surfaces and thrusters to maneuver the suit. Thrusers can't work without the avionics system telling it where to apply thrust even when they're completely one-directional, at which point they can no longer be used for mobility, and we know the SF's VL thrusters are pointed at something like 45-degree angles all around so they're obiously being used for more than just speed. Either the HiMAT system is controlling the VL to aid in maneuvering, or the VL has nothing to do with maneuvering whatsoever. The latter possibility is just ludicrous.
The reason why I ask is because, if that is the case, it doesn't seem like something that would be restricted to atmospheric use.

What I was thinking is that the VL can be used for maneuvering both in space and in the air a la Destiny. It's just that the HiMAT is also there for Freedom/Strike Freedom just for the atmospheric portion without relying on the use of the VL. I don't know if the Freedom has thrusters on its wings, but even if it does, it's certainly not as powerful as the VL. So the HiMAT can be used in place of the VL, or they can be used together. Rereading the HiMAT definition, it really puts more emphasis on the configuration of the wings rather than mentioning the use of thrusters, not that thrusters don't play a part in the overall flight mechanism.
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:49   Link #11857
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They retconned it again to show the dragoons can be shifted out of place to allow the VL to kick in in atmosphere (though it's only used for one brief second only on the Blu Ray of Destiny remaster)

That being said SF arrived from Orbit and did not return to a ship until the battle was over. If it dumped the dragoons in the water as soon as the fight started unless they were able to find and fish them out and they weren't ruined by being soaked in seawater for hours, SF would be dragoonless until it got back to Eternal, which had already gone back to hiding and wouldn't meet up with AA again for about 5 episodes. AA wouldn't have any, SF was a brand new machine that hadn't been stationed on it before and there was no time to dock with AA and leave them there because Kira was needed to fight the instant he arrived. So SF would be dragoonless even in space if they were attacked before meeting up with Eternal. That's also another good reason as why he didn't leave them in Eternal from the start.
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Old 2014-10-18, 00:57   Link #11858
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by kuroihikari2 View Post
There could be alternative controls, you know. The HiMAT is not a control system, it's a computer that's attached to the control system.

So again: How do you know that the wings can only open up with the HiMAT system?
Reread this post. It explains exactly why the HiMAT is controlling it.
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Old 2014-10-18, 01:03   Link #11859
kuroihikari2
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Reread this post. It explains exactly why the HiMAT is controlling it.
Ummm..... no, it's nowhere in that post. It only implies that the HiMAT is controlling it, not that the HiMAT is the only way to control it.
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Old 2014-10-18, 06:07   Link #11860
Bogart
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Well, I finished it. I'll post more final thoughts on Destiny and the series over all, but before that I wanted to write this down before I forgot it.

Although there aren't any good Natural pilots in the series, I think I'd die if one were to say this;

"Looks like he died of.../glasses Natural causes!"
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