Character Discussion - Shirley

[azul120]

Actually it was also after the Black Knights betrayed him, forcing him to push away Kallen, who had given him one last bit of heroic willpower right before that, in order to save her, that he had lost it, and was completely isolated. The way things transpired, it was too much a factor of Lelouch being a Designated Monkey. It's not like he was Lucy from Elfen Lied, a character who simply couldn't be helped for obvious reasons. Lelouch was a serious For Want of a Nail case. Had he gotten the kind of help he needed, no Zero Requiem, pretty much.

While I won't disagree about the part about lies, that's another part of it, and part of my overall argument, really. Lelouch did need to focus on being more honest to his loved ones, and to that effect, in the final picture drama, Suzaku, in his closing thoughts, silently thought to Lelouch that he lied about his promise to be with his friends for fireworks. On the flipside though, what Lelouch was pointing out to Charles was that completely eradicating the existence of lies and masks would be antithetical to life itself, and for that, Charles was completely in the wrong. What I think is that Lelouch should have learned balance.

As for people struggling for peace, that is true, but I think that Lelouch would be more useful to that alive than dead. People tend to be too forgetful and/or arrogant to avoid repeating mistakes, or making new, comparable ones. And lest we forget the blood that was shed as part of Zero Requiem that wouldn't have had to happen otherwise.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by azul120

As for people struggling for peace, that is true, but I think that Lelouch would be more useful to that alive than dead. People tend to be too forgetful and/or arrogant to avoid repeating mistakes, or making new, comparable ones. And lest we forget the blood that was shed as part of Zero Requiem that wouldn't have had to happen otherwise.

Spoiler for Reply:

Well, if he wasn't the tyrant of the universe, and forcing complete dictatorship to all the world. Then there will still be blood being shed elsewhere, simply because there are always those certain people who want to cause trouble to the world, even if Lelouch sacrificed himself, he atleast gave the world "some time to think" about their actions, and fully play what will happen to the world the meaning of being conquered. Since Britannia was a natural superpower, it dint know the meaning of being "conquered" by someone else. Lelouch simply just gave everyone the feeling, and made them all miserable, so they can finally understand the meaning of losing a war, and the suffering that others take.

If you're going to argue that, then Shirley, of all people, did not deserve to die. In fact, it's fair to say that alone was enough for some to drop the show.

Why did Shirley have to die Its such a sad fate...

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Spoiler for Reply:

Well, if he wasn't the tyrant of the universe, and forcing complete dictatorship to all the world. Then there will still be blood being shed elsewhere, simply because there are always those certain people who want to cause trouble to the world, even if Lelouch sacrificed himself, he atleast gave the world "some time to think" about their actions, and fully play what will happen to the world the meaning of being conquered. Since Britannia was a natural superpower, it dint know the meaning of being "conquered" by someone else. Lelouch simply just gave everyone the feeling, and made them all miserable, so they can finally understand the meaning of losing a war, and the suffering that others take.

Spoiler:

Perhaps, but he could go hands on if he were to stick around and curb it. Given what did happen, on the other hand, once the peace falls through, it's back to square one, and what Lelouch did entirely becomes a public Suicide by Cop.

Besides, think clearly for a bit: clearly he did some serious crap in order to earn the title of world's worst person ever, and he would have had to be even worse than his father, Charles, for one. And it's known that he did destruct Mount Fuji, which, with all the Sakuradite deposits, would take its toll over the expanses of Japan. To conclude that the end results would make up for what he must have done is a real stretch. It's No Endor Holocaust in its purest form.

On top of that, to go back a bit, the so called idealisticness of the ending clashes with the utter Crapsack World that is the series itself. Pure Mood Whiplash, in such a way that it makes a lot of it even Harsher in Hindsight.

[Hsadman]

Guys, I have to agree with Azul here, for the most part.

Lelouch for the most part, would be more beneficial to the world alive rather then dead. It's a sad reality that people are hardwired to hate each other. It's just the way our world functions. 10 years after ZR, if not shorter, another conflict is going to arise. I can assure you.

That and people are self centered, it doesn't matter what's happening to other people, as long as it isn't affecting them, is the basis of their mentality.

But I do have to say, that Lelouch's death didn't leave me in awe. He had few options left, and one of them was death. I wouldn't go as far as to say he deserved to die, but his actions weren't neglecting of it either. Plus, his despair was lenient on him dying, as some sort of resolve.

Oh and yea...if he absolutely deserved to die...at least count Viletta and Ochi (Is that how you spell it?) as well.

[Xander]

Let's remember that we are in the Shirley thread, not in the Lelouch or Generic Discussion topics where all of this and so much more has already been discussed...not just once but more times than I can possibly count using all my fingers.

If we're not going to relate this to Shirley in some way, shape or form but just repeat the exact same points about Lelouch and everyone else other than her...then this is really not the best place to have (yet another one of) these debates. Aside from that, I think my own views have already been expressed not just here but in the Generic Discussion topic, so I won't address or repeat them again (unless they're relevant to the actual subject, provided more Shirley-related talk starts up). Azul and those who agree with him see things from a certain perspective, which is valid, but at the same time some of us have a different set of interpretations, preferences or tolerances...that are, in fact, also valid.

[Hsadman]

Shirley! Right!

Almost forgot

But yea, if this isn't going to incorporate Shirley in some way, it is better suited in the Generic Discussion thread.

Azul and those who agree with him see things from a certain perspective, which is valid, but at the same time some of us have a different set of interpretations, preferences or tolerances...that are, in fact, also valid.

No such thing as an invalid opinion bud

[Rei.K]

I can't contribute to the discussion for now, but I just wanted to say that I love Shirley, and I always will (you could also see it as a bump lol).
I can't think of any other character that marked me as much lately.

I loved the character so much, I remember getting depressed for a while when "it" happened. I had a hard time getting over it.
Actually I don't think I actually did, lol.

Beyond the fact I loved the character, I also usually have troubles accepting such cruel and unfair fates. Such a lovable person really didn't deserve what happened to her. Guilty of love ... how more cruel could that get.

[Hsadman]

Most people haven't gotten over it

I know I'm one of them xP

[Arbitres]

God sat in the good spot in Heaven. I kicked his ass off and gave Shirley the good spot.

She deserved it.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

God sat in the good spot in Heaven. I kicked his ass off and gave Shirley the good spot.

She deserved it.

So instead of God, we are worshipping a goddess now? Seems reasonable in some... Universal way

[Hsadman]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

God sat in the good spot in Heaven. I kicked his ass off and gave Shirley the good spot.

She deserved it.

Wait...then where does Chuck Norris sit?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Hsadman

Wait...then where does Chuck Norris sit?

In the other place? Simply because he even scares the boogeyman?

[aimyngee]

It's obvious that most of the fans are rooting for Lulu x C.C., however, as for my own experience watching the show, they did in fact complement each other, the two were really fated-to be each others partner, or ally. And that is what I also think about Lulu; I guess for him, C.C. was his partner. Without her, he would never have his Geass in the first place.

BUT, I think that Lulu really loved Shirley, without him knowing it--or he just didn't want to admit it to himself. He considered Shirley a very important person in his life.
He cared for her the most(of course, Nunnally), and even casted his Geass on her, so that she would forget the sad things in her life--to live a normal life.
I don't think he would really use his Geass among his friends unless it is really necessary.

Spoiler:

Of course, he didn't want to use it to Suzaku(he didn't want him to die, he is after all, his bestfriend), to Kallen (he really didn't know her that time), Euphie(it was, obviously, an accident), and to Nunnally, (Zero Requiem, everyone?)

Remember folks,

Spoiler:

Lulu: Loss makes you realize a lot of things, doesn't it? How much you loved her smile, how you'll never fight or laugh together again.
Shirley: You loved her, didn't you?
Lulu: I don't know anymore.

and

Spoiler:

Lulu cried. Lulu cried when Shirley died. It was very heartbreaking.
I mean, the protagonist that we all loved, and thought that would never cry over a death of somebody (because of the rage that he's holding), was actually crying because Shirley died. He even bet on the possibility that his Geass would still work on her even though he knew that Shirley had been already under it.

So yeah, I guess Lulu really loved Shirley. =)

Spoiler:

They can, they're both dead. (I'm one of the people who would want him to be a hero who sacrificed his own life for the sake of the new world.)

[Hsadman]

^ I hate to be the douchebag that says this, but to all LuluxCC fans. It was rejected....by the official guidebook. Hurts, I can imagine.

But anyways, I have to agree with most that aimyngee states. Although, in place of love, it can also be thought of gratitude, or great admiration. But anyhow, Shirley was of course cared by Lelouch, he distanced and blocked her so she wouldn't be hurt by him anymore. Which...didn't work out. I believe Lelouch started to be cold hearted since the first incident with Shirley, which revealed to him that he could easily hurt anyone close to him.

Oh and, @aimyngee. It's been stated by the Screenwriter of Code Geass that Lelouch died. Fans will continue to believe what they do, it's human nature

And I would like to believe that Lelouch deserved the Anti-Douchebag award of the year as well

[azul120]

Yeah. Lelouch was more Job than Jesus.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Hsadman

^ I hate to be the douchebag that says this, but to all LuluxCC fans. It was rejected....by the official guidebook. Hurts, I can imagine.

But anyways, I have to agree with most that aimyngee states. Although, in place of love, it can also be thought of gratitude, or great admiration. But anyhow, Shirley was of course cared by Lelouch, he distanced and blocked her so she wouldn't be hurt by him anymore. Which...didn't work out. I believe Lelouch started to be cold hearted since the first incident with Shirley, which revealed to him that he could easily hurt anyone close to him.

Oh and, @aimyngee. It's been stated by the Screenwriter of Code Geass that Lelouch died. Fans will continue to believe what they do, it's human nature

And I would like to believe that Lelouch deserved the Anti-Douchebag award of the year as well

IMHO you're not being a douchebag Hsadman.
It's just a misperception by the English speaking fanbase that somehow the R2 Guidebook is the bible of Code Geass.
Believe me, it's not.
It is simply a product designed to generate additional money for Sunrise and provide a general overview of what happened in the series.
I have many of these kinds of books (Macross [the Gold Book, all three This is animation books, the M7 complete manual, the Macross 2 guidebook, Macross Plus Movie book, Macross Perfect Memory Book, Flashback 2012 Guidebook, etc], Space Battleship Yamato [every series and movie book], Galaxy Express 999 [every series and movie book], and guidebooks for twelve other major (and minor) anime series).
Very few of them give "insider" information on characters or events in their respective anime universes.
Code Geass is no different.

I own a copy of the guidebook and know for a fact that it also says Lulu rejected Kallen and that she could never understand his feelings or his heart.
I am of the opinion that the guidebook is worthless when it comes to the romance of Code Geass.
According to the R2 Official Guidbook, the only two women Lelouch supposedly loved were Nunnally and Euphie.
That doesn't jive with what I saw in the anime, so what am I supposed to believe, the Guidebook (which is meant as an overview of what happened in the series) or my lying eyes that watched the show?
The book has got nice pictures, but doesn't tell us much of anything we didn't see in greater depth in the anime already.
The anime is the primary source of info for the series and at this point it's the only measure that I respect.
All other materials, be they magazines, books, etc. (unless it actually comes from a statement by Okouchi or Taniguichi) are inferior to the anime itself.
Okouchi tells us that Lelouch died a virgin because his rebellion consumed all his energy.
What Okouchi and Taniguichi do not tell us in any of the books, interviews, or other materials is who or whom Lelouch loved.
He may have loved all three women for all we know (CC, Shirley, Kallen).
When CC asks him at Narita about the whole "why is snow white?" question, Lelouch answers "I don't know why snow is white. But I know that it's beautiful and I don't hate it." (S1, episode 11 Battle for Narita, at 22:09-22:28)
That's a tender moment between them (in which Kallen scowls) in the cave that goes beyond just accomplices.
I should also note that in episode 15 of R2, Lelouch tell's CC "I promise you the smile you never had..." and to Charles Lelouch says, "You've stolen enough from me already father, you won't have her too." Lelouch goes on to say "I know what it was now, I know what you're Geass was [to be loved], and I know you're true wish [for someone to truly love her]. Come closer, let me reach you."
I find it interesting that the guidebook doesn't explain this.
As for Kallen, Lelouch clearly wanted Kallen to live her own life and thus set her free (and as any Kalulu will tell you, if you love someone, set them free ).
His feelings for Shirley are also very clear and I won't go into detail about them because they're obvious.
From a story standpoint there is considerable romantic-chemistry between Lelouch-and-Shirley, Lelouch-and-CC, and Lelouch-and-Kallen that indicate (to me at least) that he was interested in all three women.

Thus, I also agree with aimyngee.
Lelouch clearly had feelings for Shirley, and in my opinion, Kallen and CC as well.
LelouchxHarem!

[NoemiChan]

The only thing that makes me angry is "why does she have to die?". I hate that stupid boy having brother complex to Lelouch. He killed her even she reasons out that she wanted to help Lelouch. Gladly that Lelouch has his revenged...

[azul120]

Kaguya would approve of the harem idea... as long as she could be in it!

[Hsadman]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Spoiler for Text:

IMHO you're not being a douchebag Hsadman.
It's just a misperception by the English speaking fanbase that somehow the R2 Guidebook is the bible of Code Geass.
Believe me, it's not.
It is simply a product designed to generate additional money for Sunrise and provide a general overview of what happened in the series.
I have many of these kinds of books (Macross [the Gold Book, all three This is animation books, the M7 complete manual, the Macross 2 guidebook, Macross Plus Movie book, Macross Perfect Memory Book, Flashback 2012 Guidebook, etc], Space Battleship Yamato [every series and movie book], Galaxy Express 999 [every series and movie book], and guidebooks for twelve other major (and minor) anime series).
Very few of them give "insider" information on characters or events in their respective anime universes.
Code Geass is no different.

I own a copy of the guidebook and know for a fact that it also says Lulu rejected Kallen and that she could never understand his feelings or his heart.
I am of the opinion that the guidebook is worthless when it comes to the romance of Code Geass.
According to the R2 Official Guidbook, the only two women Lelouch supposedly loved were Nunnally and Euphie.
That doesn't jive with what I saw in the anime, so what am I supposed to believe, the Guidebook (which is meant as an overview of what happened in the series) or my lying eyes that watched the show?
The book has got nice pictures, but doesn't tell us much of anything we didn't see in greater depth in the anime already.
The anime is the primary source of info for the series and at this point it's the only measure that I respect.
All other materials, be they magazines, books, etc. (unless it actually comes from a statement by Okouchi or Taniguichi) are inferior to the anime itself.
Okouchi tells us that Lelouch died a virgin because his rebellion consumed all his energy.
What Okouchi and Taniguichi do not tell us in any of the books, interviews, or other materials is who or whom Lelouch loved.
He may have loved all three women for all we know (CC, Shirley, Kallen).
When CC asks him at Narita about the whole "why is snow white?" question, Lelouch answers "I don't know why snow is white. But I know that it's beautiful and I don't hate it." (S1, episode 11 Battle for Narita, at 22:09-22:28)
That's a tender moment between them (in which Kallen scowls) in the cave that goes beyond just accomplices.
I should also note that in episode 15 of R2, Lelouch tell's CC "I promise you the smile you never had..." and to Charles Lelouch says, "You've stolen enough from me already father, you won't have her too." Lelouch goes on to say "I know what it was now, I know what you're Geass was [to be loved], and I know you're true wish [for someone to truly love her]. Come closer, let me reach you."
I find it interesting that the guidebook doesn't explain this.
As for Kallen, Lelouch clearly wanted Kallen to live her own life and thus set her free (and as any Kalulu will tell you, if you love someone, set them free ).
His feelings for Shirley are also very clear and I won't go into detail about them because they're obvious.
From a story standpoint there is considerable romantic-chemistry between Lelouch-and-Shirley, Lelouch-and-CC, and Lelouch-and-Kallen that indicate (to me at least) that he was interested in all three women.

Thus, I also agree with aimyngee.
Lelouch clearly had feelings for Shirley, and in my opinion, Kallen and CC as well.
LelouchxHarem!

Spoiler for Text:

Ah, I see. Sorry, I assumed, as you stated, that the official guidebook was the almighty Bible of Code Geass. Thank you very much for clearing up such a mess for me. I always wondered why Sunrise would risk half of their fanbase by shooting them in the foot.

Also, I fear this might have left a inaccurate impression of me. With all that LelouShirley hype I had on

I ensure, I also believe Lelouch had feelings for all 3 girls, perhaps in different ways, but not anything that cannot be considered 'love'. Which is confirmed by of course, the show itself I myself don't truly know the reason I lean towards the LelouShirley pairing over others. But my utmost respect to those who do, I mean, we're all anime fans here xD

And yes, LelouchxHarem is ftw. For the great great great win. I'm sure Lelouch agrees as well. He's probably up in heaven, having fun with Shirley and Euphie xD And possibly...Rolo....

Originally Posted by azul120

Kaguya would approve of the harem idea... as long as she could be in it!

I'm honestly disgusted at myself for imagining that....but I honestly can't deny I was slightly turned on.

[azul120]

On youtube, the featured vid on the right side was the episode "Attack Cornelia" with the included picture cap of Suzaku on top of Shirley.