2009-12-16, 17:09
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Link #4241 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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2009-12-16, 17:31
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Link #4243 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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This is when the magic you've learnt in Umineko kicks in. Turn this ugly reality into something better. I'm imagining it right now, but instead of red swords or blue stakes, there are rainbows, bubbles and ponies with rainbow tails. Quote:
Ange: Maria, if you want to see Sakutaro again, give me a hell yeah! Beatrice: Hey, who do yo... Ange: What? Beatrice: As I said, who... Ange: What?! Best.Idea.Ever
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2009-12-16, 18:18
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Link #4244 | |
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The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I just don't think mortal stampede is a good fit for the scenes of next week's episode. |
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2009-12-16, 21:37
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Link #4245 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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Since they have 12 minutes to work with for the Tea Party and ???? (I genuinely can't complain), I don't see how they couldn't use that. |
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2009-12-16, 21:52
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Link #4246 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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2009-12-16, 22:11
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Link #4247 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Brazil
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2009-12-17, 06:25
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Link #4248 | |||
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Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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It's not just the budget... they're simply a bad studio. Quote:
Characters in the background just stand there with their arms at their sides, expressionless, the 'camera' angles are boring, DEEN doesn't see the value in stuff like the Red Web, etc. I'd still love to see KyoAni's version of Umineko, to be honest.  Quote:
It's not just that DEEN cuts things, it's also that they pace things... oddly.. and the animation is generally hideous, as well as the removal of awesome music tracks for no understandable reason. This is an amazing story given to a infamously subpar studio and it's depressing. |
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2009-12-17, 06:34
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Link #4249 | |
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別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It's not just a matter of things you cut. Even if Toei could make 200 episodes their version of Clannad would still sucks. I still think that Kyoani's animation style wouldn't be appropriate for Umineko, but certainly they would have done a noticeable better work in directing it.
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2009-12-17, 06:36
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Link #4250 | |||
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The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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You can't shove all of those awesome tracks into the anime. First it is expensive, second it wouldn't work. Let's look at the Geore vs Gaap and jessica vs. Ronove scene. There are at elast three awesome tracks in there. Hibuta, Victima and Mortal Stampede. It feels awkward in anime if you change the BGM in such a short time to often. It feels diconnected. Of course their overuse of suspicion in the second arc was a bit annoying but hey when was the last time you heard it now?
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2009-12-17, 06:44
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Link #4251 | ||||
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Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I still can't get over that shot from the first arc with Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji standing at attention in the background... And some of the idiotic mistakes they make... do these people have the concept of quality checking? Quote:
It's just... if you're adapting a sound novel, well... |
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2009-12-17, 07:26
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Link #4252 |
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Observer
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Unreality
Age: 34
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the less sales of the dvds
the bad quality adaptation ! bad choice directive Anime only watchers disapointed ! I don't think the 2nd season Chiru will be released! but of course we still have the VN ! fortunately !!
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2009-12-17, 07:32
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Link #4253 |
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Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Yeah, I don't expect a second season, either.
The anime is pretty terrible and boring compared to the novel, but I suppose some of that is inevitable. We have to remember the differences between various forms of media.... |
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2009-12-17, 07:45
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Link #4254 | ||||||
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阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
 Graphic Designer Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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If you asks any FSN VN reader, you have 99% chance to notice they did a very poor job (not as bad as JC Staff with Tsukihime, mind you). I won't say that all complaints are legitimate, but a good chunk are, considering how Deen seems to keep their "touch" for their adaptations which isn't anything stellar. And seriously, people already knew about Higurashi butchered treatment for Onikakushi => Tsumihoroboshi, yet they do something extremely jarring with Umineko, despite they aren't doing an experimental adaptation here. Quote:
Likewise, ufotable manages to convey an immersive atmosphere for KnK with smart use of ambiant gradient, timed flashbacks and camera angle (and of course, absurd budget). If we were to ignore the budget issue, the direction of Deen productions is most of the time... really lacking. Quote:
And this goes even more problematic when the pace is being totally toyed for no particular reason. Quote:
Remember that Kyoto Animation did FMP Second Raid, which is totally different from their Key and haruhi adaptations. KA isn't the only good studio for this franchise: Bones, Madhouse, Ufotable and Productions IG are definitely within the caliber of Umineko. I don't expect anything like Kara no Kyoukai, but I would have killed for an Umineko adaptation under the banners of those who were in charge of KnK adaptation. Quote:
To begin with, if Deen was only a problem regarding the cuts, it wouldn't have been that bad. My issue with Deen, or rather, Chiaki Kon, is the fact they do so many silly choices regarding the script (cutting important red facts, removing the red for several instances, changing the fashion of death etc), along with a very stupid pacing (few episodes are way too rushed, while some are basically slow as hell), and production quality. Like Kaisos said, there are too many uneffective or even silly camera angles (especially regarding Jessica, for obvious reasons). Quote:
Your example doesn't hold the candle: they don't have any restriction in that scene to use at least one of them. And some studio managed to exploit the original material BGM without any problem (see again Clannad, and you will understand).
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2009-12-17, 07:49
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Link #4255 |
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Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Any of the top-tier studios would do a better job than DEEN and Chiaki Kon, basically.
I wouldn't actually mind seeing BONES try this... at least they have the capability of churning out 50+ episode series, which the first four arcs would need to give any kind of similar experience to the VN. |
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2009-12-17, 10:34
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Link #4256 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 39
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Madhouse then, while a studio with considerably good basic results, also has a history of altering source material to their liking. While Chaos;head as a stand alone anime was good, they cut so many parts on explantion and other things, that some stuff seemed even more like senseless techno-babble than it did in the VN. And their good adaptions on a level of atmosphere were still heavily cut down, like Mouryou no Hako, Kurozuka or Himitsu...while I loved those series for what they became in the adaption process, it's something you just can't do when adapting Umineko. And Production I.G., well, what good(!) adaptions did they produce? I remember them producing quite good anime from time to time...but I can't remember them doing a considerable adaption job which was worth mentioning. The problem with the adaption's of for example Clannad in comparison to Umineko is, that in a plot that doesn't rely on so many basic facts to be effective like a detective story, it is much easier to be 'true to the source' without loosing to much time. I agree that there would have been a much bigger budget needed for an adaption of Umineko though. Maybe even a budget on the scale of Kara no Kyoukai...yet how do you gain such a budget?! There is the problem that Umineko can't feature such an (almost insulting) amount of product placement...or is there someone who suddenly wants to hear Ronove go buy Häagen Dasz, or Jessica's favourite place being the (then not existing) Starbucks on the next island? While I love KnK's adaption for it's good points...that was always something that I found distracting, because they didn't even try to NOT focus on those points. ...and to be honest, comparing those adaptions is a bit off from the beginning, because of the source materials. One is a 1300 pages novel stretched on 490 minutes, which is almost a 26 episode series, the other one is based on a VN which's novel adaption of the first 2 Episodes already has 1190 pages. Which means Umineko is almost 2 times the size of KnK's material in the same amount of time. But I will always respect ufotable for managing to become the studio featuring 'the best adaption' (Kara no Kyoukai) after they produced the worst adaption (Tales of Symphonia)...they really managed to get their boat to turn, even though I think KnK was their only real success... I respect it if people don't like the Umineko anime, but the claim that another studio would have immediatly made it better...just doesn't seem right. Quote:
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2009-12-17, 10:58
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阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic DesignerModerator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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That being said, I really don't even want to hear anything about CH, as it is nearly as bad as tsukihime Quote:
I know their respective categories are really 2 opposite face of a coin, but essentially speaking, the scripting efforts are by no mean that different in term of brain racking fun time. Quote:
That being said, I was always annoyed by such marketing choice considering the producers should know how the Naku Koro ni franchise is famous. So, being shy and stingy on the budget looks like a utter waste of potential for their own good. In fact, it was a blatant loss/loss situation, as we can see with the DVD charts. That being said, I really doubt the volvic and häegen dasz sponsor (and prolly few extra) were that much of a driving lion share of ufotable budget. But I believe that a series like umineko would have been really oustanding with like... half of KnK budget, imho, unless expenses scale is really different from what I can imagine. Quote:
I mentioned KnK mainly due to its outstanding artistic sense and production value which aren't shamed by random camera and the like. KnK is by far ridiculous in sheer size, but the said mood is overwhelming in the original story. Because of its format, the movies had to use a lot of direction choices and appealing presentation to lead to what the original material was. Which is absolutely not what you can see with umineko (ritual SIDEWAYSSS, diving camera on Jessica's butt etc). Quote:
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Of course, we will never know since there is no way it will happen, but that's a shared sentiment that isn't that far fetched, if you compare to several series we had so far with Deen and others.
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2009-12-17, 12:06
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Link #4259 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 40
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I think the best comparison of an adaptation with Umineko would be Madhouse's adaptation of Monster. I don't think a more faithful adaptation of any non-anime source has ever been made ... and like Umineko, Monster is a series in which many little details are extremely important, and in which there is a huge cast of characters (though in Monster most of the characters are only around for a few episodes each).
At the same time, Madhouse has done poor adaptations, too. (I would count Death Note as one, personally. They were too in love with Light ... they spent too much time on, say, the Yotsuba arc, and not enough time on the second arc, which I personally loved, and which I think could have been improved greatly if they'd actually spent more time on it than the manga ... and of course they changed the ending, mostly because they wanted to fap to Light more). So, unfortunately, one good anime adaptation does not point to another one. |
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2009-12-17, 12:22
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Link #4260 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 39
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Yeah well, I think we agree on the point that there is no foolproof studio and that's the only criticism I had with what most people are saying.
It's not like another studio can guarantee Umineko being better...it COULD also very well mean that they could make it worse, who knows. You mentioned ToP, even though it's not a VN, THAT was an inconsistent mess. In the end it was just for people who played the game and wanted to see some scenes animated...at least ToS made the attempt to create a feeling of consistent plot (even though there were enough jumps). We could have had such an Umineko, where in one moment we're seeing Beato slaughtering people and in the next episode we're suddenly 4 chapters further, because investigation was deemed unimportant. I think the biggest problem is, that maybe Chiaki Kon wants to cram EVERYTHING in there and somewhere along the way they just lost track of how much time they've got for how much content. I don't even know why they chose do have so many people working on that project (3 scripters, 12 storyboarders, 9 episode directors....no wonder they went insane) no wonder they lost track. Quote:
Well...I dreaded KnK's adaption when I heard ufotable was doing them and it wasn't until the 3rd movie that I was sure they made something good. Many people seem to have seen one or two good series of a studio (mostly series that are original or had a major budget boost) and assume that the studio is now foolproof...it was just a way to build up a counter-point to yours, showing both sides. Quote:
That's the problem I see with adapting such a complex detective story (to call it like that is a bit off, but fits the most towards the points I adress) in comparison to a dating sim. It doesn't matter that much if the meeting place of two people is altered if the result is only to shorten the distance between to events and make them both happen in the same plotline. Not if the sole point of the plot is character interaction...they just have to restructurize some events. Yet this restructuring is nearly impossible in a plot where the when, where, how and what is part of a clue-system. I remember you of how many people knowing the VN still wonder if it will be a plot hole where Kyrie and the others were killed in the anime... I just want to point out that it is easier to alter stuff if the sole reason for "X meeting Y" is for X to have met Y to create character interaction, then it is if the reason for "X meeting Y" may be to place X in place Z at time D making it impossible for Y to be at place Q at time E. I don't want to make KyoAni's work look less good, they did a very good job in their field...but they also had more freedom to work with and we don't know how the team of Umineko would have done under the circumstances. Quote:
As far as I know there was only bought space for 13 episodes of Tatakau Shisho at first...I don't know if it's true, but they weren't sure either. Sure, being a bit less daring may have paid off...maybe Umineko should have gone the same way. I also think they could have given a bit more money for that...but still even though Umineko has a strong fanbase, the growing potential for that fanbase is smaller compared to other series, which sponsors might want to put their money into. It still is an Otaku thing and not so many people really go out and buy that stuff. It's not like a Shounen Jump Series or some evening anime which basically finances itself through the fact that basically everyone has to know it. But I agree...it was a terribly bad decision to market it THAT small.
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