For 40+, who else is nearly done?

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It's even worse when you realise that this is a deliberate strategy to appeal to hardcore otaku who generally prefer more of the same. Such audiences enjoy even mroe when you have shows that specifically pander to their reclusive/exclusive interests. It's like sharing an in-joke that only such fans can appreciate and enjoy. Whatever the reason, I think the industry has turned inwards, and this has contributed significantly to the stale state of storytelling in contemporary anime.

The problem is that what it means to be otaku has changed over the past three decades. The otaku crystallized in the early 1980s around mostly two things--the ancestors of what Galbraith calls the "moe otaku" and the "normative otaku." The former were more inward-looking and focused on refining the otaku version of the "floating world" (cf. geisha houses vs. maid cafes). The normatives were more active with the outer world as a sort of interface between the floating world that "should be" and the crapsack world that is. The normatives presented a critique and a challenge to the crapsack world (cf. Otaku no Video, for example).

The shocks of the 1990s led to a sort of disillusion within the normative community and led to its die-off. All that's left are the moe otaku and the floating world. The otaku themselves have grown more inward-looking as a result and much otaku media reflects this focus on refining the floating world within the confines of the otaku continuum (LNs, VNs, video games, manga, and anime). This is exacerbated by the growing alienation of individuals within society from one-another and the growing overreliance on social media as a means of connection with others--not just in otaku society but in mainstream Japanese (and heck, even within Western society) as well.

Otaku media has always been grass-roots-influenced. The otaku are always the trend-setters for their own media. I think otaku as an identity is in a sort of crisis in Japan and has been for about 15 years at least. Tolerance of the identity in the early 00s (cf Densha Otoko) combined with the gradual loss of confidence throughout the whole of the Japanese psyche (beginning with the economic miracle ending in the late 1980s, through the Aum Shinrikyo attacks, earthquakes, and climaxing with the Fukushima disaster) has sapped much of the otaku of their dynamism and energy.

Toshio Okada, the Otaking (cf. Otaku no Video), himself published a book in which he laments the death of otaku (paraphrasing Fist of the North Star in it's title: You Otaku are Already Dead). As a hardcore normative (and not moe) otaku, he finds himself utterly alienated by where things have gone. Otaku have turned inward and perhaps stagnant (a kind of cultural isolation like that of the Edo Period).

Meanwhile, mainstream creators are starting to dominate the cinematic scene that once was overwhelmingly driven by otaku energies. For as much as he is praised, Shinkai Makoto lacks a core otaku identity in much of his works--this may explain their success with mainstream Japanese audiences. As someone fascinated by otaku culture, I find his work tremendously beautiful but without a substantive core of otaku identity. Miyazaki, on the other hand, may not be an otaku, but he predates otaku and has heavily influenced the emergence and development of otaku--he's a sort of ancestor. Shinkai simply isn't an otaku and I don't see him influencing much.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Arya

what I noted is also as the discussions have decreased (at least here) and discussion is an active component in my engagement of a series.

Nowadays the active membership at AS is much smaller than it was in, say, 2008, but I find the people who post here much better-informed and, dare I say, more intelligent. There certainly are more of us in the over-40 crowd than at MAL. ANN's forum users are probably closer to us in age but much more interested in dubbed shows.

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Nowadays the active membership at AS is much smaller than it was in, say, 2008, but I find the people who post here much better-informed and, dare I say, more intelligent. There certainly are more of us in the over-40 crowd than at MAL. ANN's forum users are probably closer to us in age but much more interested in dubbed shows.

MAL is a cesspool of immaturity and the majority of users exhibit the Dunning-Kruger effect. I use MAL's analytics but avoid the forums. Social-media-induced pathological narcissism is the rule of the day there.

As for ANN... the less I say about it, the better.

I still visit here from time-to-time but yes, discussion here has waned. There aren't as many interesting threads but occasionally they do crop up (this one being an example).

I also pop into the Old School Otaku Lounge on occasion. There are a lot of older fans there who discuss 70s, 80s, and 90s anime (and sometimes more recent stuff).

I have some pals on Discord I talk to but not many. Almost nobody my age (40) but a couple guys are in their late 30s.

[Guardian Enzo]

I’m interested to see how Western fandom evolves as it relates to the otaku bubble. In theory Netflix money should provide an outlet for new material that doesn’t constrain itself to the in-joke repetitiveness of otaku-targeted production committee anime. But I haven’t been overjoyed at the results so far.

Are Western fans following the same arc as otaku, only a few years behind? Or will their tastes always be different because of cultural differences and the different ways anime is consumed? I was in the specialty coffee business for many years, and to an extent it’s evolved quite predictably in markets that are of roughly similar economic dynamics. As regards America (which has its own divides), Europe and Japan especially, it’s almost as if there’s a timeline and you can plot where every market is on it, and where they’ll go in rough terms. Cultural differences matter, but only so much. I’m not sure that’s been true with anime though.

[Nivek von Beldo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I’m interested to see how Western fandom evolves as it relates to the otaku bubble. In theory Netflix money should provide an outlet for new material that doesn’t constrain itself to the in-joke repetitiveness of otaku-targeted production committee anime. But I haven’t been overjoyed at the results so far.

Are Western fans following the same arc as otaku, only a few years behind? Or will their tastes always be different because of cultural differences and the different ways anime is consumed? I was in the specialty coffee business for many years, and to an extent it’s evolved quite predictably in markets that are of roughly similar economic dynamics. As regards America (which has its own divides), Europe and Japan especially, it’s almost as if there’s a timeline and you can plot where every market is on it, and where they’ll go in rough terms. Cultural differences matter, but only so much. I’m not sure that’s been true with anime though.

You're not western? you're a billingual japanese? that is very interesting.. i think western fandom is as worst as japanese ones at times, specially the cartoon one

[Guardian Enzo]

No, I'm American (though living in Japan). Just asking the question as an interested observer-participant.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Are Western fans following the same arc as otaku, only a few years behind?

After shows like Pokemon, most young anime fans in the US start with Toonami. It's current lineup includes

Dragon Ball Super, My Hero Academia, Sword Art Online: Alicization, The Promised Neverland, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond Is Unbreakable, Black Clover, Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, Naruto: Shippuden, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan

That seems more like a few seasons behind, not years.

I'd imagine some branch out from there, discover other genres, and begin to frequent illegal streaming sites.

Originally Posted by Fvlminatvs

I use MAL's analytics but avoid the forums.

I frequent the Recommendations forum since the one here dried up. I tend to recommend shows like Moribito or Baccano! that most of them have never heard of. It's the "Sensei" part of my character. I'm not teaching political science any more so I might as well help young anime fans develop a sense of taste and an appreciation for the enormity of the anime corpus.

[Sorry. I should have put these together. Hit the wrong button.)

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I frequent the Recommendations forum since the one here dried up. I tend to recommend shows like Moribito or Baccano!

College instructor myself. And it's funny, shows like Baccano! and Moribito are still relatively "new" to me. Not as new as anything THIS decade but still, not quite old yet for me.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I’m interested to see how Western fandom evolves as it relates to the otaku bubble.

I know I'm going to sound overly negative but I find it to be a dumpster fire of a constantly fracturing fandom along the lines of identity politics and special interests, further poisoned by the social-media-induced pathological narcissism. Just like everything else that was once nerd-culture, anime fandom has been overrun by Millennial politicization of everything. And that's not just me complaining about it--I know a lot of Millennials and Gen-Z'ers who complain about this.

To cap it all off, the Western fandom has grown incredibly lazy due to ease of getting the latest anime via streaming services (legal and illegal) and don't really have as strong an appreciation for the medium because they don't have to do all the tape-trading, networking, translating, mailing, VHS-copying, etc. that we had to do back in the 80s and 90s. Anime is cheap and plentiful.

This, coupled with the streaming models have changed viewing habits from group-viewings and in-person, face-to-face discussion to more solitary simulcasting and binge-watching with discussion limited to snark on Twitter (keyboard-warrior syndrome). This has turned anime into a product that is rapidly consumed and ultimately disposable. I know young kids who have never seen a show that predates 2005 and yet have watched over 500 or 600 anime via streaming services. Many of them have never rewatched a single show.

I know that sounds pretty negative and I apologize for that but that's what I see going on.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It’s not just here. In the 7 or so years I’ve been at Random Curiosity there’s been a big change. Pretty much the only shows that generate much discussion are LN adaptations (especially whatever isekai is the flavor of the minute) and ecchi shows (and to a lesser extent whatever CGDCT shows have traction). There was a time when stuff like Mob Psycho or Megalo Box would have had a ton of comments but they barely generate any these days.

It's true in other places too. You'd think Reddit would be loaded with big subreddits for anime but it really isn't. Even bigger properties die quickly if there isn't constant new things to pull people back in. That phenomena isn't new here, but I'm noticing it more frequently happening on Web 2.0 sites now too. The internet is rapidly fracturing into....something. But I don't think it's good.

Anyway, for me personally anime over the last decade has just not pulled me in as much as it did the decade prior. That's not to say I don't watch shows still, but the content (genres, themes) I like isn't made as much. That said, I can still find a few shows a year to watch. But it's like water in a desert sometimes, you get a taste and then....you have to wait.

That's probably why I mostly read manga now. And it doesn't invalidate older anime either. I binged both seasons of Log Horizon the other day, and as an mmo player I found a lot to like. So there's always something to check out, I think.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

After shows like Pokemon, most young anime fans in the US start with Toonami. It's current lineup includes

Dragon Ball Super, My Hero Academia, Sword Art Online: Alicization, The Promised Neverland, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond Is Unbreakable, Black Clover, Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, Naruto: Shippuden, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan

That seems more like a few seasons behind, not years.

I don't mean behind in terms of calendar - I mean in terms of trends. Yes, most of those shows are relatively recent in terms of their actual air dates. But in terms of genre and style, most of them apart from SAO are not what you would call otaku titles.

I also think it's dangerous to place too much stock in Toonami as a barometer of American (much less Western generally) tastes, especially with streaming being as eponymous as it is. Toonami is and always has been overwhelmingly tilted towards mainstream shounen (preferably Jump) titles.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I also think it's dangerous to place too much stock in Toonami as a barometer of American (much less Western generally) tastes, especially with streaming being as eponymous as it is. Toonami is and always has been overwhelmingly tilted towards mainstream shounen (preferably Jump) titles.

True, but I see a lot of novice viewers at MAL, and most of them refer to having watched popular, usually shounen, titles like these. That's why I think Toonami still provides a portal into the anime world for newcomers. I don't think many of them want to become otaku (though some do).

[ArrowSmith]

Maybe my fundamental mistake is assuming that the anime industry ever bothered catering to older viewers. It's still primarily about the preteen to early adult demographic and if we get a 'Megalo Box' or a 'Sagrada Reset' every now and then consider that a bone thrown.

The only bright spot is the series I've seen coming as Netflix exclusives since 2015 are very promising. They're not all catering to 30+, but a good amount are. I am so looking forward to Kakeguri Season 2.

Just look at what they have coming:

https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/com...in-2019-03-19/

Virtually everything on there looks very promising to me, compared to what is coming down the pike for CR/Funimation/HiDive.

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

True, but I see a lot of novice viewers at MAL, and most of them refer to having watched popular, usually shounen, titles like these. That's why I think Toonami still provides a portal into the anime world for newcomers. I don't think many of them want to become otaku (though some do).

I agree with this. While there has always been a difference between Japanese otaku and Western fans (the fact that otaku media has to be imported and translated being one of the major reasons for the difference), the way anime is marketed in the West produces a mass-consumption model. The vast majority of young anime fans these days are hyper-focused on a specific genre as opposed to otaku media as a whole.

[ArrowSmith]

^
True it didn't even occur to me that Japanese otaku might only focus on one genre per simulcast season and will not try to absorb it all. Perhaps we Westerners need to learn from our Japanese weeboo masters.

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

^
True it didn't even occur to me that Japanese otaku might only focus on one genre per simulcast season and will not try to absorb it all. Perhaps we Westerners need to learn from our Japanese weeboo masters.

I think you misunderstand. I meant that the otaku in Japan will focus mostly on otaku media with a sprinkling of adjacent stuff. However, it is WESTERN fans that are fractured and myopic in their focus on genre-specific items.

Also, Japanese can't be weebs because weebs are Westerner wannabe Japanese otaku, from what I know. Not unless definitions have changed.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

The only bright spot is the series I've seen coming as Netflix exclusives since 2015 are very promising.

I've found Amazon's offerings more compelling myself, and they are released weekly. They don't license many shows (and fewer now that Anime Strike died), but what they do license is often worth a look:

Dororo
Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryouko
Hakata Tonkotsu Ramens
Princess Principal
Re:Creators

I didn't stick with Inayushiki, KOKKOKU, or Karakuri Circus, though they obviously have an audience.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I've found Amazon's offerings more compelling myself, and they are released weekly. They don't license many shows (and fewer now that Anime Strike died), but what they do license is often worth a look:

Dororo
Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryouko
Hakata Tonkotsu Ramens
Princess Principal
Re:Creators

I didn't stick with Inayushiki, KOKKOKU, or Karakuri Circus, though they obviously have an audience.

Of the Amazon current offerings you mentioned I didn't care for anything but 'Hakata Tonkotsu Ramens'. Inuyashiki was great until the last episode when they threw the Bad Orange Man in for no reason. Loved KOKKOKU, but dropped Karakuri Circus. Overall I'm really digging the direction Netflix has gone in.

Kakeguri, Aggretsuko are amazing and Polygon remains the master at CGI anime.

[Guardian Enzo]

I've been almost unfailingly disappointed in Netflix' efforts so far. While they are nominally aimed at older audiences, they've generally been hollow and soulless series trying too hard to be "cool" and "push the envelope".

Also, it's distressing that Netflix' money has made no impact on working conditions in the industry. None of it makes its way to the grunts at the studios, and precious little to the studios themselves.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I've been almost unfailingly disappointed in Netflix' efforts so far. While they are nominally aimed at older audiences, they've generally been hollow and soulless series trying too hard to be "cool" and "push the envelope".

Also, it's distressing that Netflix' money has made no impact on working conditions in the industry. None of it makes its way to the grunts at the studios, and precious little to the studios themselves.

Aggretsuko is soulless? I never even knew about red pandas until that show was suddenly on Netflix! Now I can't get enough of red pandas on Youtube!

[Guardian Enzo]

Different strokes for different folks. Can't stand that show.