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[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

That second statement is pretty much an assumption. I find it hard to relent if there is no proof (as in news reports) about it.

While it's possible that the stubbornness of some of the refugees might have led to the delay of the evacuation, the UN spokesman never mentioned it.

Israel gave them 3(or 2.5) days, and UN couldn't evacuate everyone on time. The strikes hit just as they were about to leave on buses.

Edit: ok, an update from UN is now that they are not sure whether it's Israel rocket or Hamas rocket that hit the school. Israel denied intentionally target the school. Both sides were firing rockets at each others at the time, and it could've been a errant rocket that hit the school.

Looks like Hamas' involved in this...

[Ithekro]

I heard somewhere that Israel tends to fire an inert round at its intended target first as a warning shot. Apparently it has told the people in Gaza that they will fire this warning shot so that people have time to leave. If they don't leave, the second shot is fully armed and will destroy the building. Though it is rather accurate, since only that one building is destroyed, while those around it are intact (aside from broken glass and some shock damage and dust).

[Ridwan]

It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All

Not surprised at the slightest.

[Irenicus]

I don't understand why people still accept the "warning shots" excuse.

Gaza is a giant prison camp, very densely populated compared to neighboring Israeli and Egyptian settlements and are under blockade. Where the fuck should they run to? Beaches are not safe, U.N. shelters are not safe, hospitals are not safe. Oh but they gave "warnings" so they can freely kill civilians...

Hamas' fall, if it happens, will not herald a return to moderation among Palestinians. It will mean the rise of ISIS and other even more extreme jihadi groups in Gaza. It may provoke the third intifada, especially if Fatah loses all face and the increasingly restive Palestinians living in the West Bank -- pushed and pushed by Israeli settlements' expansions, rise up. It will mean vicious radicalism, unbending hatred, and a mentality of total resistance will be ingrained into yet another Palestinian generation. If the PLO loses all of its already flimsy authority, if Hamas -- which has civilian and diplomatic interests -- is replaced by less "enchained," more viciously vengeful groups, then there will be no venues of negotiation and diplomacy left and it will be Israelis (and many, many more Palestinians) who will bleed.

Great fucking job Likud & the Israeli far right. You people have more in common with the fascist murderers of your ancestors than the sadly weakened Israeli left. At this point even Israeli democracy is under threat, as intensifying conflict threatens to disenfranchise groups like the Arab Israelis, so long integrated in a fragile, yet all-important, balance.

[Ithekro]

You know, there was a day and age, where Israel could just wipe them all out and no one would really blink at the idea too much because it would be called "winning the war".

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You know, there was a day and age, where Israel could just wipe them all out and no one would really blink at the idea too much because it would be called "winning the war".

Armenian Genocide ?

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Armenian Genocide ?

Among others over the last several thousand years, yes. The Salting of Cathage?

[Ridwan]

It's called "Armenian Negligent Genocide". Did the Ottomans deport them enmasse to the other side of their empire thinking it was a good idea ? Yes. Did they intend to obliterate Armenian people Nazi-style ? No.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

It's called "Armenian Negligent Genocide". Did the Ottomans deport them enmasse to the other side of their empire thinking it was a good idea ? Yes. Did they intend to obliterate Armenian people Nazi-style ? No.

I just find it funny that Turkish politicians take it upon themselves to proactively involve in the debate when they are supposed to be "different" from the Ottomans.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You know, there was a day and age, where Israel could just wipe them all out and no one would really blink at the idea too much because it would be called "winning the war".

And there was a day and age when killing Jews was the duty of every Christian, your point being? If Israel wants to go back to the Dark Ages, they are welcome to try. They won't like what that gets them.

If Israel officially declare that all civilians as ALLOWED to die, then there is no reason why every neighbour wouldn't gang up on Israel and have a massive MAD. At which point America would have to decide if they want to help Israel commit genocide or let the chips fall where they may.

This perception that Israel is being NICE, and that they can easily become the empire of the Middle East if they wanted to, is simply wrong. But if the Hawks want to start a mini-Armageddon I guess that's what they will get.

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

I just find it funny that Turkish politicians take it upon themselves to proactively involve in the debate when they are supposed to be "different" from the Ottomans.

As much as Soviet Union was different from Tsarist Russia and the current republic is different from Soviet Union.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

As much as Soviet Union was different from Tsarist Russia

I don't recall the last time USSR felt the need to defend whatever atrocities committed by Royalties.

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

I don't recall the last time USSR felt the need to defend whatever atrocities committed by Royalties.

It's certainly nice being one of the world powers.

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

I don't recall the last time USSR felt the need to defend whatever atrocities committed by Royalties.

I seem to recall they usually used them as reasoning for getting rid of the Tsar in the first place. Regardless if it is correct or not.

[Jazzrat]

The winner is just and the loser is tyrannical. It's simply how history are written throughout the ages. The Gaza conflict is too profitable for those in power on both side of the war, and just like most war, it's the people that suffers the consequence while the rich and powerful reap all the benefits.

[Ridwan]

Professor Ariel Heryanto's commentary on Indonesian Democracy :

Indonesia’s democratic masses brought victory to Jokowi

The 2014 Indonesian presidential election has been remarkable. Not only in comparison to the country’s long history of dictatorship that crumbled less than two decades ago, but also to democratic processes worldwide.

Voting is not compulsory in Indonesia. Yet volunteer groups took leading roles in making the election a spectacular success. Elsewhere coercion remains a feature in more than a few of the so-called “liberal” democratic countries, where elections at home are mandatory by law or held in other countries at gunpoint.

Joko Widodo, Indonesia’s president elect, is a paradox. Better known as Jokowi, he stands out as extraordinary among politicians in Indonesia and beyond, for being so ordinary (and comfortably so) in appearance, speech and background. Much has been written about him and his qualities. So let me move on to focus on others that made him president of the “world’s third-largest democracy”.

Causes and consequences

Two questions follow. What brought the emergence of these forceful masses? What benefits might these masses enjoy once Jokowi has become their president?

One answer to the first question is already suggested above: Jokowi personifies, and thus attracts, millions of his compatriots who have commonly endured decades of political abuse by the political elite. A second factor strengthened it, namely the widespread apprehension of a possible return of New Order authoritarianism if Prabowo won the election. But both factors only explain the interest, not the capacity of the masses to assert their will.

To understand their capacity, some credit is due to the service of social media, as attested to by Kawal Pemilu and the protest of Indonesian migrant workers on voting day in Hong Kong. More important is the serious and protracted intra-elite rivalry that has preoccupied members of the old regime. They will not go away with the ascendancy of Jokowi.

Until the surviving elite of the old regime resolves its internal conflict, the general population enjoys an extra space to assert their aspirations. Thus, a rather sombre answer to the second question above.

Unless adequately nurtured and consolidated institutionally in a timely way, the energy and support of Jokowi’s supporters will soon dissipate after his presidential inauguration. Opportunities exist, but there is no guarantee that Indonesia’s democratic moments will last long or flourish.

On paper, analysts often speak of democracy as categories that distinguish countries as democratic or non-democratic. In the real and messy world, democracy is best understood as moments or momentary qualities; some being more spectacular in some place than elsewhere, but only for some time.

[SaintessHeart]

I'm Done Apologizing for Israel

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more. Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

So I'm a progressive US faith leader. I'm a Zionist in Berkeley, CA. I'm a Jew in the world, worried for my family. So here is my response to those criticizing Israel this week.

To those who suggest that Prime Minister Netanyahu is over-reacting to the missiles, I offer this response which I have now shared regularly at campus and communal conversations:

Israel is treating wounded Palestinians during this conflict, risking Israeli lives in surgical strikes to destroy weapons-smuggling tunnels created with building materials Israel allowed into Gaza for infrastructure projects to benefit Palestinian society. Just for a moment, consider the deaths that would result from Israel wishing harm on Palestinian civilians. In just the last 48 hours, Israel has allowed over 10 tons of goods into Gaza. During the past weeks, Israel has agreed to two humanitarian cease-fires. In the first hours of those ceasefires, Hamas rained down over 70 missiles onto Israel civilians.

I ask: What do Israel's enraged critics truly desire? How is it possible to hear indignant claims of human rights violations in the context of Syrians slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, state-sanctioned terrorism around the globe, and young immigrants treated like chattel by the US and other? Israel is doing its best, sacrificing its own children to preserve the lives of Palestinians.

I also ask, regarding the world's seemingly acceptance of Hamas' tactics as the only remaining option left for a desperate leadership:

Were Hamas to truly lead its people forward to a life of stability and peace, wouldn't it use building materials for schools instead of smuggling tunnels? Wouldn't Hamas stop stockpiling weapons in mosques and transporting them in UN ambulances? Wouldn't Hamas stop firing missiles from civilian population centers if it valued Palestinian lives as much as Israel does? If Israel weren't so concerned for Palestinian lives, wouldn't it respond to Hamas' horrific decisions in kind?

I ask the enraged critics of Israel's defensive responses to Hamas: Would you have us not respond to this monstrosity? Do you think it's not worth losing the PR battle to retain our humanity and save as many lives as possible? What country would stand by when thousands of terrorist missiles assault its citizens? I, a Jew, have lost 20 of my sons in the last three days, because I will not lose my humanity and stage a careless ground war in Gaza that would cause mass casualties. Though I fight monsters, I will not become one.

My response has changed these last few weeks, in which three Jewish teens were murdered by Arab terrorists and Palestinians celebrated by distributing sweets to children and an Arab teen was murdered by Jewish terrorists and the Jewish world condemned the hatred. I am done trying to apologetically explain Jewish morality. I am done apologizing for my own Jewish existence.

Some will call this needless hyperbole. But, having watched in this last week anti-Semitic "die-ins" in Boston, violent assaults against Jews in Los Angeles and Antwerp, and an almost pogrom at a synagogue in Paris, I'm done mincing my own words.

We will do what we must to protect our people. We have that right. We are not less deserving of life and quiet than anyone else.

No more apologies.

[Fireminer]

Rhetoric.

You know, Mr. Rabbi, you could have say all of these without question mark every ten lines.

[risingstar3110]

When you put a 800 death toll on Palestine side with 80% or more civilian. Versus what was it again? 3 civilian death for Israel? Then you know who is carrying out the massacre.

With that ratio of death 200 to 1; that is equivalent of Hamas rolling in some biological weapons, killing 1.6 millions of Israeli civilians. Then call it "a fair retaliation".


Israel is simply just screwing themselves up in a long run. Simple as that. The German waited 20-25 years to carry out their exact revenge on the bitterness of World War 1. And now Israel are cooking some regional grudge toward themselves with all these acts.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

When you put a 800 death toll on Palestine side with 80% or more civilian. Versus what was it again? 3 civilian death for Israel? Then you know who is carrying out the massacre.

That's a screwy kind of math. So what, since Israel only lost 3 civilians, they're automatically wrong? Is there some kind of loss ratio that's allowed? Would it have been fine if they'd only killed 3 Palestinian civilians? Would you have said "Oh, it's alright, then"? Turning it around - does the Hamas now have the right to kill a thousand Israelis, since Israel is so far ahead?

I don't know how else Israel should conduct its wars. It's not like Hamas have uniforms and military bases and all the paraphernalia necessary for a conventional, by-the-book war.

I do wish they'd conduct their peace better, though. What with their settlements and embargos and so on.