Valvrave the Liberator: Magius Discussion Thread

[Key Board]

I wonder how they are going to solve that
Lieselotte said Magius can only eat humans
(apparently the ones that jacked animals weren't enough?)

I'm pretty sure it's intentional, but it's like Vampire and Human parallels
Vampire NEED to drink blood

They'll have to set up some kind of rune blood bank

[finalfury]

I think its been said here but are the Kamitsuki created to become the perfect hosts for the Magius?

[Kurohane]

No, the module worked independently from magius influence. The magius had no idea of what was going on until the invasion.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by finalfury

I think its been said here but are the Kamitsuki created to become the perfect hosts for the Magius?

Lieselotte says that Kamitsuki are artificially made to be similar to Magius

But well, it seems that Kamitsuki only spend runes when piloting and recovering from injury.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I wonder how they are going to solve that
Lieselotte said Magius can only eat humans
(apparently the ones that jacked animals weren't enough?)

I'm pretty sure it's intentional, but it's like Vampire and Human parallels
Vampire NEED to drink blood

They'll have to set up some kind of rune blood bank

Actually she didn't say that they could only consume human runes. She said that on Earth, Humans were the only things that held enough runes to help them survive. It wouldn't make sense if they could ONLY consume human runes. They were a civilization long before they crashed on Earth and Lise said they could no longer communicate with their home world, which means that there are more of them. All of these Magius were surviving on runes long before they even met humanity.

Originally Posted by finalfury

I think its been said here but are the Kamitsuki created to become the perfect hosts for the Magius?

No, I don't think so. I don't even think JIOR even really knew what the Magius are. I think they thought they were making a new being using the alien tech they found, and all they were really doing was making a hybrid being that sort of a subspecies of Magius.

Originally Posted by Key Board

Lieselotte says that Kamitsuki are artificially made to be similar to Magius

But well, it seems that Kamitsuki only spend runes when piloting and recovering from injury.

Actually the Kamitsuki and Magius spend runes the same way: through applying them through their actions. The Kamitsuki have their runes drawn out by the Valvraves during battle, however, this is something they can't yet control. The Magius can manipulate their own runes using their alien language and can choose how and how much to use. Lise already had hers drained to the point of near starvation but chose to use up all of hers in order for the others to live. Also, both species seem to die the same way. They can only die when they completely run out of runes, however this has to be through some voluntary means.

These are my theories on the Magius that I stated in my review:

It seems the Magius were exactly as they had been alluding to this entire series: space vampire aliens. Unfortunately, the Magius have no physical shape and could not survive on Earth without taking a human body. Having lived on Earth for centuries, their people have kept hidden by going from body to body. They created a governing body, the Council of 101 to help keep their people safe from humanity. However, they live off of runes, and since humans are the largest vessels of runes on Earth, they have to feed off them to survive. I must say, this revelation was one that I had thought of, and one that proves what I've been trying to say. The Magius aren't just some inherent villains, they're a species just like humans with their good and bad individuals. They also cannot help what they are, I cannot blame them for jacking living beings in order to survive, no more than I can blame them for feeding off humans. They are doing what they are doing for survival. And unfortunately though for Lise's dream that everyone be able to live together, humanity has a habit of never wanting to accept anything that's different from them, especially a people that have been hunting them for sustenance all these years. I can see humanity waging war against the Magius because of this. We do see some group that resembles a futuristic Dorssia fighting Saki? Could this be what's left of humanity fighting against the Magius/Kamitsuki?

However, what of Prue and Pino who seem to have some small corporeal body in comparison to their Magius comrades? Could it be that these two as two of the primogenitors of the Magius race have forms? Like for instance the difference between the queen bee and the worker bees? I'm guessing that perhaps there was either more than one ship or that Pino was trapped in the ship and thus was buried along with the crashed ship which was years later found by JIOR? Also Pino's runes have been been reset, so It would explain how she is confused about everything. Also, the Magius say that humans are the greatest source of runes they can find ON EARTH. Also, they have to have survived before this on their own world so I'm guessing there are other large sources of runes out there in the galaxy? Perhaps that's why the Empire is so widespread and far from Earth?

[finalfury]

Should have changed that too "Since body-jacking is neccessary for Magius survival, is it possible that they will consider the Kamitsuki as potential hosts due to their similar genetic make-up?"
I think it is possible that symbiosis will occur between Magius and Kamitsuki. :/

[MK-95-]

One thing, Lise said that Magius get by through "consuming" humans. Does that mean that the persons they jack are not dormant, but rather dead?

I noticed that L-Elf never knew the real Lise & we'll never see the real Cain past that flashback we got.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

One thing, Lise said that Magius get by through "consuming" humans. Does that mean that the persons they jack are not dormant, but rather dead?

I noticed that L-Elf never knew the real Lise & we'll never see the real Cain past that flashback we got.

Well, in a way you could say that he knew the Lise that mattered. The original princess might have not had the heart to save him and might have been snobby little girl. However, the person the L-elf got to know was a mature, and kind woman. And that's the one he fell in love with . Also, since we know she was an alien even then, do you thing that line about what her mother telling her a woman's hair is her life, is actually from her real alien mother? Though the aliens don't have physical forms on Earth, they have to have some sort of corporeal concept of themselves since Pino and Prue's forms aren't man-made and look alien. Also, Prue did take that physical form while in his cocoon....

Also, I always thought that they person that they would take as their vessel would die. They're taking these vessel's permenantly until they require a new one. so yeah, dead. Also, it would be really hard for some of these human to wake up suddenly and find their body was 20, 30, 60, 80 years older than their mind currently is. The real Lise would be a 5 year old in a 16 year old's body. That's got to create some mental and psychological issues.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Similar to the formation of three power blocks in Gundam 00 around orbital elevators Dorssia, ARUS and JIOR were formed around Dyson spheres.

With the revelation Magius are aliens it would stand to reason they provided that particular technology to humanity. The question is why? What is their hidden agenda?

I'm starting to feel Magius are like the Changlings/Founders of the Dominion in Star Trek DS9. Other races don't like them due to their nature. So they develop a mentality they should control those they fear.

Note we already have a hint at the end. A Third Galactic Empire. Perhaps it is what the Magius is working on towards to. To conquer the galaxy. Except their plan gets hijacked by the Kamitsuki. That fight we saw in the future could be civil war in the empire.

[DevilHighDxD]

^The 3rd Galactic Empire is the Kamitsuki's empire. The Magius doesn't to be revealed to the human.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, in a way you could say that he knew the Lise that mattered. The original princess might have not had the heart to save him and might have been snobby little girl. However, the person the L-elf got to know was a mature, and kind woman. And that's the one he fell in love with . Also, since we know she was an alien even then, do you thing that line about what her mother telling her a woman's hair is her life, is actually from her real alien mother? Though the aliens don't have physical forms on Earth, they have to have some sort of corporeal concept of themselves since Pino and Prue's forms aren't man-made and look alien. Also, Prue did take that physical form while in his cocoon....

Fair point. But on the part about her mother telling her about her hair. It doesn't necessarily need to be her real mother. It could've been Lise's mother or one of her previous hosts' mothers'. She's been on earth sevel hundred years, so it isn't strange for her to remember some saying she heard somewhere & it wouldn't be weird for her to call Lise's mother her mother. (She isn't lying, that is technically her mother now...+ she'd need to stay in character. [Remember Cain & Mirco in episode 13's ending?])

Pino & Prue do have forms, so it can be true that they do have physical manifestations on their home world. Still, why did the Magius that came to earth have no bodies?

Also, I always thought that they person that they would take as their vessel would die. They're taking these vessel's permenantly until they require a new one. so yeah, dead. Also, it would be really hard for some of these human to wake up suddenly and find their body was 20, 30, 60, 80 years older than their mind currently is. The real Lise would be a 5 year old in a 16 year old's body. That's got to create some mental and psychological issues.

I had also entertained this thought, but I didn't want to believe it. I really wanted "Real" Cain to make a return some day, but episode 20 basically crushed that fleeting hope.

It seems that fake Lise, killed real Lise upon jacking. Thus the real Lise ceased to exist from that point onwards. When fake Lise died, the body no longer having a sentience, died as well.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by finalfury

All that matters is whether or not their gametes(sex cells i.e sperm or egg) contain the genetic information that make up a Kamitsuki.

Kamitsuki won't be called a new species if their genetic make up is still like human. One thing for sure is that all of the offspring of the non-kamitsuki students is a potential candidate to be a kamitsuki. Since the student all has their runes(DNA) modified to fit the taste of Pino, the modification will be passed down. If anyone has potential to become kamitsuki, it them.

@mangakid Another thing is that Okouchi can have the offspring aged to a certain age until completely stop aging. Such as around the prince's age if he were indeed a kamitsuki. This will probably be a plot hole, he will never explained though.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Kamitsuki won't be called a new species if their genetic make up is still like human. One thing for sure is that all of the offspring of the non-kamitsuki students is a potential candidate to be a kamitsuki. Since the student all has their runes(DNA) modified to fit the taste of Pino, the modification will be passed down. If anyone has potential to become kamitsuki, it them.

@mangakid Another thing is that Okouchi can have the offspring aged to a certain age until completely stop aging. Such as around the prince's age if he were indeed a kamitsuki. This will probably be a plot hole, he will never explained though.

I consider them to be a sub-species or a branch off of homo sapiens.
Considering that their genetic modification to Kamitsuki happens post birth, we would need to have a genetic map of what their alleles are since each gene typically has two alleles(sub-type of a gene such as blue eyes or red eyes for the eye gene) and which one of those alleles are expressed. :c
EDIT: Bio is very, very complicated stuff.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by finalfury

I consider them to be a sub-species or a branch off of homo sapiens.
Considering that their genetic modification to Kamitsuki happens post birth, we would need to have a genetic map of what their alleles are since each gene typically has two alleles(sub-type of a gene such as blue eyes or red eyes for the eye gene) and which one of those alleles are expressed. :c
EDIT: Bio is very, very complicated stuff.

Tell me about it...but I love it!

Well, the thing about the Kamitsuki is that they are completely new. They are not fully human and are not fully Magius, they are something in between. Now, I think when the scientists modified their genes, they became genetically altered humans. This can and does result is sometimes the gametes of said altered people to change and mutate and usually, in a real world scenario, the children of said altered people would be quite prone to genetic disorders, mutations, or the altered people would have become sterile to begin with. However, when those changed genes were further changed by the injection they get when becoming a pilot, their genome has changed to less so resemble that of humans and now resembles more of that of the Magius.
Since the kamistsuki are now closer to Magius than they are humans, they will probably want to consult them on their ways of reproduction.

The kamitsuki will have to actually watch themselves to see how their new unique bodies operate. They are the first of their kind and though they are now closer to Magius than they are Humans in terms of their overall genotype, their phenotype is still largely human. So, really their reproduction can go either way, or neither. And there's also the threat of mutation and sterility that comes when you start messing with genetics.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

It seems that fake Lise, killed real Lise upon jacking. Thus the real Lise ceased to exist from that point onwards. When fake Lise died, the body no longer having a sentience, died as well.

I don't think we can consider that totally confirmed yet. Fake Lise died when she ran out of runes, right? That means that she used up all the runes in that body that she possibly could. So, it could be the case that real Lise would have died or become brain dead because of that and not just because she was bodyjacked in the first place.

[DevilHighDxD]

Consider that the kamitsuki empire expanded throughout the galactic and if the kamitsuki were sterile. Why would they need such large amount of living space to the point that Earth is small in comparison? Even if they were to turned all student into kamitsuki, I still doubt that they need it. Also the population need be sufficient enough for a military to able to protect the empire, so depend on if Saki is turned out to be pregnant from that episode we could see the growth of a newborn Kamitsuki. Or the fact that due to mixing with the human and after 200 years, the result is that there only some pure blooded Kamitsuki and they have the highest status in the empire while the rest still retain some of the kamitsuki's ability but was serverely weaken due to the long term effect of mixing in with human. They lost the jacking ability but still lived longer and better healing factor than the normal human.

[Irenesharda]

I don't think the Empire has just Kamitsuki in it. It probably also has other species such as human and Magius. The Kamitsuki may or may not be sterile, but I'm guessing not. However, because we don't know how their genes work yet, we don't know if any child they were to have would ever work out. You forget that the Kamitsuki stop aging from the moment they become one. If their species does not physically age, any child they try to conceive will also be immortal in that same way and so would never age past the point of conception.

It's a common failing found in many a literary fiction immortal. This may mean, that the Kamitsuki can only have children with another compatible species (human or Magius) or they might be able to have children with each other but under certain circumstances, such as how Pino directed Haruto in Episode 10.
However, any child they have would have to be different than the Kamitsuki in that they would have to be able to grow. And if they grow, the child would be closer to a human than either the Kamitsuki or Magius as Magius seem to stay physically unchanging (in their natural form) throughout eternity just as the Kamitsuki do.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't think the Empire has just Kamitsuki in it. It probably also has other species such as human and Magius. The Kamitsuki may or may not be sterile, but I'm guessing not. However, because we don't know how their genes work yet, we don't know if any child they were to have would ever work out. You forget that the Kamitsuki stop aging from the moment they become one. If their species does not physically age, any child they try to conceive will also be immortal in that same way and so would never age past the point of conception.

It's a common failing found in many a literary fiction immortal. This may mean, that the Kamitsuki can only have children with another compatible species (human or Magius) or they might be able to have children with each other but under certain circumstances, such as how Pino directed Haruto in Episode 10.
However, any child they have would have to be different than the Kamitsuki in that they would have to be able to grow. And if they grow, the child would be closer to a human than either the Kamitsuki or Magius as Magius seem to stay physically unchanging (in their natural form) throughout eternity just as the Kamitsuki do.

That was what I saying, the offspring of the Kamitsuki will never aged passed being a baby. However since the empire colonizing the universal, I assumed that the population will be also be relatively large too. So I was wondering how in 200 years they will have such a population that will allow the empire to have a powerful large army will be that the kamitsuki mated with the human so the kamitsuki blooded will be weaken so it will allow the newborn baby to grow but grow slowly. The empire will have human and kamitsuki living coexisting and 200 years into the majority of the population will be mix-blood of kamitsuki and human.

[MeggieMay]

I was reading the thread that was moved from the Shoko discussion thread and wanted to point something out. Homo sapiens novus are not actually Kamitsuki. The Kamitsuki are Homo Sapiens Novus who have been injected with by the Valvraves. Aina was a Homo Sapiens Novus but she died, as did many of her fellow classmates. Homo Sapiens Novus aren't immortal, which is why I thought Haruto's dad was a bit off or he knows something that hasn't quite been made clear yet. Haruto's dad doesn't seem to realize they have to become Valvrave pilots for that to happen but Haruto's dads off the beam IMO so that's not a big surprise that he is either ignorant of that catch or just ignoring the issue.

Homo Sapiens Novus have the potential to be come Kamisuki. As to whether either group can have kids and how that works it hasn't been explained yet. The show hasn't said whether or not they can or can't have kids. The idea they can't is a fan theory that goes back to how other vampire origins treat the subject. Until they tell us, or hint a lot more than they have, on how it all works we're all just speculating.

[Irenesharda]

The thing about this whole "homo sapiens novus" is that in reality it means nothing. There is no difference between them and regular humans other than the potential to become artificial magius. Unlike Kira and the coordinators, who you could tell were a little bit faster, stronger, smarter, and more talented in certain areas than normal humans, unless you are a pilot, the HSN are no different than their normal human counterparts. And you cannot make me believe that they made hundreds of kids with only the potential to be superior beings, having to use vast amounts of money, political pull and bribes, not mention somehow convincing hundreds of parents that they should submit their children to genetic manipulation, and yet said parents were also pushing there children on to do other things like Satomi and Akira's parents or Saki's, and yet they only made 5 and 1/2 machines with which to fully turn these ultra-expensive children into ultimate beings?

Anyway, I've harped on that before. But we''ll have to see in the long run how many actually do become kamitsuki. If they are exposed to everyone this week, you're going to have a hard time getting the students to become pilots. L-elf's way might have been devious but it was efficient, and he was right about keeping things a secret, this new revelation is going to fracture the entire group.