Kill La Kill - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Romanticide]

Given that scene, i'm now wondering how long Ragyo has been doing this to Satsuki....possibly since she was 5? We do see her make a speech about the skyscrapers in her mind.

[KleenexGhost]

One can only imagine what she did with Satsuki's father.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Given that scene, i'm now wondering how long Ragyo has been doing this to Satsuki....possibly since she was 5?

Given how unusually submissive Satsuki is to her mother, it may well have been going on for a long time. I suspect that, for Ragyo, this is at least partly about exerting total control over her daughter.

As disturbing as the scene is, I think it may be a telling and valuable scene. It says something about the relationship between Ragyo and Satsuki, something probably essential.

Up until now, we've seen Satsuki consistently portrayed as someone very strong and assertive and in a position of dominance. But in this episode we see a very vulnerable and submissive Satsuki.

I forget the exact psychological term for it, but there's a condition where a person who gets dominated by another is likely to "pass it on" to their own victims. I don't know if that's going on here - It's at least as likely that Satsuki secretly resents her mother for treating her like this and that may factor into Satsuki successfully rebelling against her - But it might be something worth considering.

If you look at the way Satsuki is framed in that "wrapped up in blue ribbons" bit in the new OP, it is an odd appearance for her, and it could be a suggestive/foreshadowing one.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Given that scene, i'm now wondering how long Ragyo has been doing this to Satsuki....possibly since she was 5? We do see her make a speech about the skyscrapers in her mind.

Given that it is a purification ceremony to wear Junketsu, we can be quite sure it is their first such intimate time.
Perhaps, seeing as Godrobes exert huge toll on the nervous system, an orgasm or two in relaxing environment helps mitigate the damage?

It also answers why is it a "bridal clothing" - until Satsuki is ready for sex, she can't undergo such ceremonies.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I think it was clearly meant to be disturbing. Most people aren't aroused by being disturbed. They're two contradictory responses for most people.

Are you arguing there was nothing sensual or erotic about this scene? The cinematography leaves no room for doubt in my mind. If they had wanted to make it only disturbing, it would have been very different.

I take it you haven't heard of the concept of weird boners. It's entirely possible to be turned on by something you find disturbing.

Is it abnormal to be turned on by an adult woman sexually abusing her teenage daughter? Yes, I would say it is, frankly.

A very attractive woman giving another very attractive woman (Satsuki is already 18) a tantric massage is pretty arousing, yes. It's only unsettling to us because they are mother and daughter. If Satsuki had been younger or had shown displeasure or disgust, my response would have been very different. As it is, I'm fine with calling this hot.

It's not like this was meant to be super dark and serious. Satsuki won't get any lasting emotional scar from this. That scene was supposed to show us the control Ragyo has over her daughter, and how submissive Satsuki is to her mother. I suspect this will change very soon.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Are you arguing there was nothing sensual or erotic about this scene?

I'm arguing that most people would find the (likely abusive) incest between mother and daughter more important than erotic appeal on a sheer technical basis. And so most people would find it disturbing, and not arousing.

The cinematography leaves no room for doubt in my mind. If they had wanted to make it only disturbing, it would have been very different.

I disagree. SeijiSensei explained very well how the scene was framed to make one think of rape. It was clearly meant to be disturbing.

I take it you haven't heard of the concept of weird boners.

I never got any boners during this incest scene. It certainly wasn't hot to me.

It's entirely possible to be turned on by something you find disturbing.

Maybe for you, but not for everybody.

It's only unsettling to us because they are mother and daughter.

Which I think would be the most important factor in the scene for most people.

It's not like this was meant to be super dark and serious.

I disagree. I think it was meant to be very serious in portraying Ragyo in a dark and disturbing light.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm arguing that most people would find the (likely abusive) incest between mother and daughter more important than erotic appeal on a sheer technical basis.




I disagree. SeijiSensei explained very well how the scene was framed to make one think of rape. It was clearly meant to be disturbing.




I never got any boners during this incest scene. It certainly wasn't hot to me.




Maybe for you, but not for everybody.




Which I think would be the most important factor in the scene for most people.




I disagree. I think it was meant to be very serious in portraying Ragyo in a dark and disturbing light.

I think you're being a little harsh.

I thought it was really unnerving/disturbing whatever and that scene somewhat scared me, but I could see how someone might think there was something sexual going on there.

I think her mother is being possessed by the Kamui... so she's just acting very strangely... She "purified" her daughter... she's got a couple of screws loose...

The main point to get out of that is just how submissive Satsuki is around her mother. This is clearly an important fact, we just don't know why it's important yet.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by dniv

I think you're being a little harsh.

I thought it was really unnerving/disturbing whatever and that scene somewhat scared me, but I could see how someone might think there was something sexual going on there.

Well of course something sexual was going on there. But that doesn't automatically make something "hot".

It's quite possible for something to be sexual, and not hot. To me, this scene was disturbing, and a bit disgusting. The very opposite of arousing.

[MCAL]

Again, I do think the scene with the incest rape was unnecessary. There were other ways to show Satsuki being submissive to her mother. I coud already tell from how soft-spoken Satuki speaks when with her in private for example. The only reason the scene isn't completely misplaced to most people, because the anime has been sexually charged thanks to the Godrobes (Kamui). To be honest, this isn't Kill la Kill's admirable aspect because its been pretty sexist. Not to say fanservice isn't always sexist, it just seems more apparent here.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well of course something sexual was going on there. But that doesn't automatically make something "hot".

It's quite possible for something to be sexual, and not hot. To me, this scene was disturbing, and a bit disgusting. The very opposite of arousing.

Same for me, I was just saying some people might feel differently... I'm pretty sure disgust was what we were supposed to be feeling.

This show isn't afraid of messing with society's take of moral values.

In hindsight, I don't think the clothes are sexist... especially given the existence of Nudist Beach...

[ChampDream]

best recap ever, awesome opening and awesome ending.
it was a suprise to know that life fiber was from outerspace.

[Candyshark]

People are too eager to jump the gun I would not go so far and call it rape. A mother who is in control over her own daughter sexuality is most powerful tool to show Satsuki submissiveness. Ragyo sees Satsuki as her possession and she has to prepare her accordingly. I still not sure but what I saw is Satsuki was very unconfartable comming to her own house. She was covering her body and that comming from someone who said she isn't ashamed to show it off. Satsuki isn't completely accaptive of her Kamui. So Ragyo "purify" her to make a more submissive and acceptive host for Life Fiber. In previous episodes she is also shown to bathe before putting Kamui on. Ragyo said who resist their instincts as in to wear clothes will fall. She just reassured her gripe on Satsuki. Not a secret sex is great to relief stress. It also simply could have been simply just an initiation into secret.

P.S: Triple_R you can get burried 100 feet deep under macabre and deprived pornographic material depicting incestious relathionships (God knows I'm not one of them but as practice shows there are niches for extreme and forbidden fetishes). Yeah I can understand if some ppl say they got wierd boner watching that scene. I just don't see as sex act but more like cinematographic tool.

P.P.S: In last scene Mako eating chips is any special brand or it is just Mako being awesome at highjacking dramatic scenes?

[Faerie]

@Candyshark ...Wait, what?
I don't think you're quite clear on what rape is.. any reasons for why she did it don't change the nature of the act. It's most certainly not normal for a mother to be in control of her daughter's sexual anything. It's most definitely a powerful, but hardly an acceptable tool of showing dominance. It's also hardly an accepted way to relieve stress. .......Obviously.

Actually, in a roundabout way you do have one point, although it isn't what you meant... it's not technically rape, at least where I live, it's ABP (that is, if she went all the way. I think it was implied she did- shudder).
Satsuki's submissiveness doesn't equal consent and her behaviour in general indicates that she has been subject to abusive behaviour from her mother before.

---

Now, while it made my skin crawl, I thought this was actually a well-thought out scene. It was deeply disturbing, difficult to watch yet relevant to what was being established- e.g Ragyo's dominance over Satsuki. Sexual assault and rape/ABP are rarely ever about sexual gratification. They're about exerting dominance and control, which is exactly what their interaction was about. It's about degrading the victim and enforcing the dominance of the person doing it.
The way Satsuki acts, even if this was the first time she was sexually assaulted, it's obvious her mother has been exerting abusive levels of dominance over her for a very long time from the way they act around each other.
Unlike in other shows, this wasn't just depicted for shock value or to pander to people with... curious... fantasies, it seems to actually be relevant. It left no doubts as to how it was intended to be perceived imo.

And yeah, regarding some people finding this erotic, I'm with RRR on how I feel about that.

edit: btw, best recap ever xD

[Gravitas Free Zone]

I watched the scene again just now, without the audio. Lacking that and any knowledge of the circumstances, the scene itself still appears as a naked woman feeling up another naked woman, who is also writhing around.

So the fanservice aspect of it can't be denied. However, including the audio and the context of the series so far, it is an extremely uncomfortable scene.

I can't entirely let the show off the hook for pandering because of how it appears out-of-context (Extracted, it would probably just generate the "reluctant" tag in a fanfic), but I still think that within the context it succeeds as a deeply disturbing situation and Satsuki is even more changed afterward.

[Eudaimonia]

The last image of the bathing scene implies that Ragyo is massaging Satsuki's Chakra knots (a metaphysical concept of Hinduistic origin) to lessen the physical strain on her body, a "purification" of some sorts which makes sense in this context. So she's actually helping her daughter by doing this though the (most probably intentional) sexual undertones remain, of course

[Wandering Soul]

Hilarious recap and a great opening. Although I am going to pretend that scene between Satsuki and her mother never happended. Other than that it was a great episode.

[Candyshark]

Yeah I didn't experience sexaul abusive myself or studied subject thoroughlly and I don't think rape only involves penis and forced sex. But I do think it involves some sort of sexual desire or perversion from abuser. Ragyo didn't have such intention. The reason I don't call it rape (gosh how do I avoid repeating this word) because I saw it as dramatic vision of complete authority and dominance. Seeing what a control freak her mother is no wonder Satsuki wants to rebel against her and as bath scene shows she isn't in position to oppose her.

All I wanted to say try to put the sex part aside but what it implies. Of course I can't tell people how sensetive they should be about certain matters.

P.S: what does ABP stand for?

[ookamigirl]

Mako was as awesome as ever ^^
That homeroom teacher is a weird one.
Well, he is right about certain things most of the time.
Seems like it pays off to listen to him.
Satsuki was going through a enlightenment of her own.
Both stories were interesting and explained a lot.
Good episode.Things should be getting more intense from now on.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SinsI

It also answers why is it a "bridal clothing" - until Satsuki is ready for sex, she can't undergo such ceremonies.

The metaphor is about puberty, but it has nothing to do with the bath scene. Frankly after seeing the scene for myself, I don't see what people are freaking out about. It's not disturbing, nor is is rape. It does have a sexual context, but her mother was not doing something purely sexual (massages can feel really good). So yes, weird boner definitely applies.

The disturbing part of the scene is why it is essential to the story. It ties into Senketsu's line about Ryoko being "ready", which itself is a reference to Satsuki's problems with Junketsu.

The Life Fibers have a will of their own. Ryoko can bypass this problem with Senketsu and her naturally high tolerance to the influence of Life Fibers. However Satsuki does not have this tolerance and thus is restricted to how far she can push Junketsu before it pushes back.

The more she uses Junketsu to fight a Ryoko who does not have restrictions and continues to exponentially power up, the greater the risk that she will eventually lose herself to Junketsu and become a monster herself.

This ties back to the fate of the female scientist and what the life fibers do. The life fibers evolve humanity, correct? So, speculation here, what if they aren't simply parasites who devour their hosts, but parasites trying to create the perfect host to evolve themselves? We've seen the failed merging of clothing and human: the rampaging Ryoko. And given how disturbing Ragyo is, I bet she's the female scientist from the failed experiment, who became a sort of harbinger of the parasite, a means to spread their influence across the planet since humanity was no longer "wearing" them. This is why she can seemingly control the "mother" ball of fiber.

What Ragyo is doing with Satsuki is grooming her successor, but I also believe she's experimenting with her daughter. Is it coincidence that there are only two Kamui and that they exist only for Ryoko and Satsuki?

It leads me to think that there's a final evolution of sorts, and going by the metaphor of puberty, it's a bit like a girl becoming a woman. If you've seen Madoka, Kyubey's words about this might feel fitting.

In short, while Ryoko has natural resistance, Satsuki uses the bath water for harmonization. Her mother was ready for this because Nui was watching the battle, hence the seemingly out of the blue summons so soon after the raid.

But all of that said, there's an interesting undercurrent to Satsuki and her mother that I think was further hinted at that I think carried over from their previous meeting. I'm still thinking that Satsuki is attempting to counter her mother (for ambition, or for humanity). There's no love here. It felt more like "I'll obey you, until the time is right". The question is, is it to take power for herself, or to topple a regime she doesn't approve of?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Candyshark

P.S: Triple_R you can get burried 100 feet deep under macabre and deprived pornographic material depicting incestious relathionships

In a world of over 6 billion people, you tend to get a lot of all sorts of things. However, that doesn't make all of those things normal, or non-disturbing.

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

I watched the scene again just now, without the audio. Lacking that and any knowledge of the circumstances, the scene itself still appears as a naked woman feeling up another naked woman, who is also writhing around.

So the fanservice aspect of it can't be denied.

I'm inclined to disagree, and here's an additional reason why:

This is Episode 16 of a non-episodic anime show. So its first and foremost for people who have been watching the show all along, and are already familiar with these characters. So the context here is crucial, and I don't think we're supposed to filter this scene down to how it may appear to people totally unfamiliar with these characters and their relation to each other.

Originally Posted by Candyshark

Yeah I didn't experience sexaul abusive myself or studied subject thoroughlly and I don't think rape only involves penis and forced sex. But I do think it involves some sort of sexual desire or perversion from abuser. Ragyo didn't have such intention.

How do you know this? Ragyo certainly seemed to be enjoying herself...

Originally Posted by Solace

The metaphor is about puberty, but it has nothing to do with the bath scene. Frankly after seeing the scene for myself, I don't see what people are freaking out about.

One brief moment looked like fingering to me (at the very least, it was implying that specific sex act). And it's a mother doing it to her daughter. Do you really not see why it's disturbing?