Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Discussion about Other Topics

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Quol

...Tatsuya's wish was never that. His wish would be more along the lines of "I wish that i can protect Miyuki." Maybe another goal that he can have is "I wish to create a world where mages have a use other than weapons." It was never to be awesome or popular.

If your talking about the author's wish then i can somewhat agree. But this entire series is based around the idea of not judging things with normal standards the quote "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." fits this quite well. Basically all characters here have some kinda wonder ability.

When people use "Wish Fulfillment" to describe a character, they're talking about the author.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Honestly, a comparison between Kirito and Tatsuya is just forced, you can do it for many protagonist with slight similarities.

People are comparing both just because they are from 2 popular novels. If I ask for a comparison between Tatsuya and Batman, you will find a lot too.

It's as if you want to number the reasons people find him cool.

Yeah, I didn't initiate the comparison. I'm just saying: they're both wish-fulfillment fantasies, rather than fleshed out characters with real problems which don't have easy solutions and whose mistakes don't have real consequences. (Heck, that statement may be unfair to Kirito. He lost the Black Cats, and there's no fixing that. Oh, well, I was never one to crap on SAO anyway.)

Originally Posted by Quol

...Tatsuya's wish was never that. His wish would be more along the lines of "I wish that i can protect Miyuki." Maybe another goal that he can have is "I wish to create a world where mages have a use other than weapons." It was never to be awesome or popular.

If your talking about the author's wish then i can somewhat agree. But this entire series is based around the idea of not judging things with normal standards the quote "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." fits this quite well. Basically all characters here have some kinda wonder ability.

Indeed, I was talking about the author. And maybe the readers. The wishes of the character don't enter into it.

Originally Posted by XFire

I agree with most of it, though I think both characters have more than enough development and problems to keep them from "wish-fulfillment" status.

However, Miyuki doesn't really count as subservient. She certainly tends to act that way around Tatsuya, but she does it deliberately to balance out the fact that he's completely subservient to her, and not entirely by choice. We see enough of her true character when ever she gets pissed or caught up in a contest.

That still makes her subservient 99% of the time. In deed if not in thought, and it's really the former that counts.

Heck, what you'd call a mascarade is itself a sign of subservience. She doesn't have to wait on him. She doesn't have to "pretend" to serve him. She does because she wants to.

Honoka and Pixie (who are basically the same character) are indeed like this. However, it isn't presented in a fetishy way, but instead as a kind of problem that neither side can help. Tatsuya can't return her feelings, which has been explained as gently as possible (My opinion of Tats sky-rocketed after that). But Honoka is just as incapable of stopping her own feelings, which were apparently created as a result of an experiment similar to the Miya used on Tats.

Yeah, but as I said... it's not really about what the characters want.

Originally Posted by Rava

Thanks, Anh Minh.

I find that an odd conclusion, considering that someone with that kind of a wish would have to be pretty masochistic to want to successfully endure Tatsuya's lethal version of Training from Hell to get there,

And that's why people write such characters instead of going to the gym. I don't really see the manner in which he got to be the way he is as important to the issue of whether he's "wish fulfillment" or not.

I'll also note that if training from hell was enough to turn you into a badass, Special Forces would be Normal Forces.

and that he has to hide as much of his awesomeness as possible because it carries secret baggage.

Which just makes him cooler. Like a superhero with a secret identity. Heck, the author straight up went "he's totally Batman without the ears, guys" in vol 12. That was pretty flagrant.

[IceHism]

I feel like the author himself knows that his characters are too awesome. Even lina and takuma go through existential crisis that goes along the line of "why are Japanese high school students so strong"

Though I don't think this has anything to do with wish fulfilment. The characters are well developed (like, I actually care about more characters than just the main and his supporting characters) and they seem to be actually trying to send a message rather than simply being a power fantasy.

[Echizen777]

I only started SAO LN recently but I don't see why you consider Tatsuya has no problem and is not a fleshed out character. He is fighting precisely because he wants to keep his normal life, the life he leads is not even the one he wanted.

You may be irked by the fact that he didn't lose but that doesn't make him a wish fulfillment character. You can like a character because he is cool, that's common, if you think all cool characters are WF characters then I agree with you.

What really is a WF character anyway?

[millie10468]

Aren't all characters wish fulfillment characters? The authors obviously had wishes they wanted their characters to fulfill. Isn't that why they were created in the first place? Or am I missing something?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I only started SAO LN recently but I don't see why you consider Tatsuya has no problem and is not a fleshed out character. He is fighting precisely because he wants to keep his normal life, the life he leads is not even the one he wanted.

... "fighting". Whereas others need the cavalry, some miracle, or impressive cleverness to survive, the closest he's come to difficulty is needing to reveal he's not left-handed. And he hasn't yet. Not really.

You may be irked by the fact that he didn't lose but that doesn't make him a wish fulfillment character. You can like a character because he is cool, that's common, if you think all cool characters are WF characters then I agree with you.

What really is a WF character anyway?

It's not just about his victories or coolness. It's about how the author is trying to push him on us as cool. It's about his completely overspecced existence. (He's a student, a soldier in some secret battalion, a rich inventor. All that before entering high school. Where does he find the time?) Usain Bolt may be the best sprinter in the world (or is it someone else now?), but it's not like he's all that much faster than second best. Or tenth best. Tatsuya's the kind of guy who'd run the 100m in 5 seconds while everyone else in the world is stuck at almost 10.

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not just about his victories or coolness. It's about how the author is trying to push him on us as cool. It's about his completely overspecced existence. (He's a student, a soldier in some secret battalion, a rich inventor. All that before entering high school. Where does he find the time?) Usain Bolt may be the best sprinter in the world (or is it someone else now?), but it's not like he's all that much faster than second best. Or tenth best. Tatsuya's the kind of guy who'd run the 100m in 5 seconds while everyone else in the world is stuck at almost 10.

I don't get it... I'm assuming you've read the novels, some or all? If yes, is it that hard to see why and how he could be written that way? Tatsuya is a character who is meant to show either the mistakes or strength (whichever one's more important at that moment) of magicians in the current society. He is the way he is on purpose, it seems to me. Sure, the author must have "wished" to create an OP character, but in my opinion, Tatsuya's strength is justified by the plot. If that's the definition of a wish fulfilment character, then you're right.... I think...

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

... "fighting". Whereas others need the cavalry, some miracle, or impressive cleverness to survive, the closest he's come to difficulty is needing to reveal he's not left-handed. And he hasn't yet. Not really.

Didn't he need the help of his friends and contacts solve his problems recently? And I believe his fights are more and more difficult as the story goes on. It's not as if he is able to do everything alone.

It's not just about his victories or coolness. It's about how the author is trying to push him on us as cool. It's about his completely overspecced existence. (He's a student, a soldier in some secret battalion, a rich inventor. All that before entering high school. Where does he find the time?) Usain Bolt may be the best sprinter in the world (or is it someone else now?), but it's not like he's all that much faster than second best. Or tenth best. Tatsuya's the kind of guy who'd run the 100m in 5 seconds while everyone else in the world is stuck at almost 10.[/QUOTE]

It was mentioned he didn't even need to go to school. He has been raised as a guardian all his life and was working on CAD too, then he started to learn taijutsu at 13 and is still training. Everything he accomplished is justified and not impossible.
And aside from his genius intellect, he is not particularly better than anyone( I am not even talking about his superpowers here).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by millie10468

I don't get it... I'm assuming you've read the novels, some or all?

First 12 volumes.

If yes, is it that hard to see why and how he could be written that way? Tatsuya is a character who is meant to show either the mistakes or strength (whichever one's more important at that moment) of magicians in the current society.

I don't follow. I'll also add that magicians don't exist, so saying he represents the magicians in current society isn't saying he's some form of social commentary.

He is the way he is on purpose, it seems to me. Sure, the author must have "wished" to create an OP character, but in my opinion, Tatsuya's strength is justified by the plot.

If you write a story where God himself descends to tell the MC "by My will, you're not the strongest. Because you need to go save the world". Then the character's strength is justified by the plot. Both the how and why. I'd still find it rather... unsatisfying writing.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Didn't he need the help of his friends and contacts solve his problems recently? And I believe his fights are more and more difficult as the story goes on. It's not as if he is able to do everything alone.

Most MC have problems in the first volume. Second at the latest. He still hasn't been in real danger so far.

It was mentioned he didn't even need to go to school. He has been raised as a guardian all his life and was working on CAD too, then he started to learn taijutsu at 13 and is still training. Everything he accomplished is justified and not impossible.
And aside from his genius intellect, he is not particularly better than anyone( I am not even talking about his superpowers here).

So you think if we start training early, practically anyone could do even one thing he did? Kokonoe, a nationally recognized master of ninjutsu already acknowledged his inferiority in pure martial arts.

As for CAD... He's not just a good tinkerer. He's probably the best designer in the country. Better than any of the adults. He already solved one of the so called "Three Great Problems". You think that's normal?

[pampz21]

Hey guys isnt Erika plot armor wierd?

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

First 12 volumes.


I don't follow. I'll also add that magicians don't exist, so saying he represents the magicians in current society isn't saying he's some form of social commentary.


If you write a story where God himself descends to tell the MC "by My will, you're not the strongest. Because you need to go save the world". Then the character's strength is justified by the plot. Both the how and why. I'd still find it rather... unsatisfying writing.

Tatsuya, to me, is the culmination of what it's meant to be a magician in their society. Simply put, an effective weapon. How and why he got there isn't of any particular interest to those who make use of him. Isn't that why the Yotsuba were even able to go that far in trying to make him a better magician. Of course, that's what I personally got from the novels, therefore he wouldn't be a character whose OPness would bother me. However, I can also see how him being seemingly "overspecced" can bother other people.

And I meant "justified by the plot" in the sense that he was written with a specific set of powers that advance the idea of magicians=weapons and how they could get there. The example you gave could also make for an interesting plot depending on how it's written. A character who's strength is justified by the plot doesn't give the author a free pass in the actual writing of the story so maybe it is the way the author went about the writing of Tatsuya's strength that leaves you unsatisfied?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Hey guys isnt Erika plot armor wierd?

What do you mean?

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

First 12 volumes.


I don't follow. I'll also add that magicians don't exist, so saying he represents the magicians in current society isn't sying he's some form of social commentary.


If you write a story where God himself descends to tell the MC "by My will, you're not the strongest. Because you need to go save the world". Then the character's strength is justified by the plot. Both the how and why. I'd still find it rather... unsatisfying writing.


Most MC have problems in the first volume. Second at the latest. He still hasn't been in real danger so far.

By danger what do you mean exactly? At the beginning his opponents were just not at his level. You consider his last fight against Lina not dangerous?

So you think if we start training early, practically anyone could do even one thing he did? Kokonoe, a nationally recognized master of ninjutsu already acknowledged his inferiority in pure martial arts.

He has the level of his master but it is because he trained for years, there are the fruits of his hard work and despite this, he never won against him in martial arts.

As for CAD... He's not just a good tinkerer. He's probably the best designer in the country. Better than any of the adults. He already solved one of the so called "Three Great Problems". You think that's normal?

Of course that's not normal. He is a genius, geniuses are geniuses because they are above normal people. He is able to do all this because he has a genius intellect, there are geniuses in our world too.

Originally Posted by pampz21

Hey guys isnt Erika plot armor wierd?

Yeah, it is.

[pampz21]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What do you mean?

Well i was just thinking that isnt it weird that Erika is a course 2 student?
I know Leo will always be one hes a fortress series and a bs mage but Erika isnt supposed to be a BS mage and if we are talking about genetics Erika should be superior to Shizuku due to Shizuku's mom is the only magician while his father is a bussiness man. Chiba's one of the strongest swordsman clan in japan and most likely the world. And she has genes of a direct decendant of Rozen who is famous around the world for their invention of cad and probably they have enough magic ability according to Tatsuya someone must be adept to magic to be a great engineer.
Well Erika maybe on genius level in sword due to her being the only one who can use Yamatsunami. And only been practecing the sword for only 3 years since the start of the series.

The only thing i can think about is that Satou-sensei have something in mind putting her in course 2 or is he trolling?
Btw Erika is part of the top 20 in theory exams.

Edit: wrong grammar.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Well i was just thinking that isnt it weird that Erika is a course 2 student?
I know Leo will always be one hes a fortress series and a bs mage but Erika isnt supposed to be a BS mage and if we are talking about genetics Erika should be superior to Shizuku due to her mom is the only magician while his father is a bussiness man. Chiba's one of the strongest swordsman clan in japan and most likely the world. And she has genes of a direct decendant of Rozen who is famous around the world for their invention of cad and probably they have enough magic ability according to Tatsuya someone must be adept to magic to be a great engineer.
Well Erika maybe on genius level in sword due to her being the only one who can use Yamatsunami. And only been practecing the sword for only 3 years since the start of the series.

The only thing i can think about is that Satou-sensei have something in mind putting her in course 2 or is he trolling?
Btw Erika is part of the top 20 in theory exams.

You're mistaken. Erika's father was a Chiba and her mother was half-Japanese. Tatsuya also stated that CADs can still be made without magic. The Rozens are probably non-magicians who just own the business. Besides, Shizuku and Honoka are just mutations in being born with great magical talent despite their lack of strong lineage.

[Lazy cat]

Originally Posted by BW95

You're mistaken. Erika's father was a Chiba and her mother was half-Japanese. Tatsuya also stated that CADs can still be made without magic. The Rozens are probably non-magicians who just own the business. Besides, Shizuku and Honoka are just mutations in being born with great magical talent despite their lack of strong lineage.

honoka parents may have strayed from the magic path but her ancestors were from the elements wich made her gens at least so good has the 100 families

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by millie10468

Tatsuya, to me, is the culmination of what it's meant to be a magician in their society.

Which is funny, because those who made him barely consider him a magician.

Simply put, an effective weapon. How and why he got there isn't of any particular interest to those who make use of him. Isn't that why the Yotsuba were even able to go that far in trying to make him a better magician. Of course, that's what I personally got from the novels, therefore he wouldn't be a character whose OPness would bother me. However, I can also see how him being seemingly "overspecced" can bother other people.

And I meant "justified by the plot" in the sense that he was written with a specific set of powers that advance the idea of magicians=weapons and how they could get there.

I don't think it was necessary or even beneficial (to the story) to make him such an atypical mage just to show that magicians are weapons. Really, it detracts from that message.

The example you gave could also make for an interesting plot depending on how it's written. A character who's strength is justified by the plot doesn't give the author a free pass in the actual writing of the story so maybe it is the way the author went about the writing of Tatsuya's strength that leaves you unsatisfied?

It's more about the presentation than the OPness itself.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

By danger what do you mean exactly?

As in "wow, he might really die this time (plot armor notwithstanding)".

At the beginning his opponents were just not at his level.

Which is a bit of a problem, since we've already tapped into the "best in the world" categories (that Chinese guy who's one of top close quarter combatants, and Lina who's the best USNA magician, as well as their go-to girl for anti-magician missions). And we still haven't seen anyone "at his level".

You consider his last fight against Lina not dangerous?

Not really. The feeling I had was that he still had a lot under the hood, and that any difficulty him holding back to not kill her than him being truly cornered.

He has the level of his master but it is because he trained for years, there are the fruits of his hard work and despite this, he never won against him in martial arts.

"He trained for years" is a poor excuse. Lots of kids start martial arts early. How many 15 years old do you see competing against adults in world championships? Zero, that's how many. And he already completely dominated soldiers at 13.

Of course that's not normal. He is a genius, geniuses are geniuses because they are above normal people. He is able to do all this because he has a genius intellect, there are geniuses in our world too.

Not to this point. It's as if Einstein discovered Relativity in high school. While keeping a full time job in addition to his school work.

Originally Posted by pampz21

Well i was just thinking that isnt it weird that Erika is a course 2 student?
I know Leo will always be one hes a fortress series and a bs mage but Erika isnt supposed to be a BS mage and if we are talking about genetics Erika should be superior to Shizuku due to Shizuku's mom is the only magician while his father is a bussiness man. Chiba's one of the strongest swordsman clan in japan and most likely the world. And she has genes of a direct decendant of Rozen who is famous around the world for their invention of cad and probably they have enough magic ability according to Tatsuya someone must be adept to magic to be a great engineer.
Well Erika maybe on genius level in sword due to her being the only one who can use Yamatsunami. And only been practecing the sword for only 3 years since the start of the series.

The only thing i can think about is that Satou-sensei have something in mind putting her in course 2 or is he trolling?
Btw Erika is part of the top 20 in theory exams.

Edit: wrong grammar.

Genetics aren't that straightforward. Just like you can get great magicians out of obscure lineages (like Mari), it's possible for famous families to produce duds. Which Erica isn't, precisely.

But the thing is, Course 1 students are tested for basic specs, and Erica's apparently aren't that good. It's like, they're trying to sort student-athlete, but they test things like muscle tone and lung capacity. Erica's a great soccer player thanks to her excellent ball control, but her tested capacities are bad.

Also, what the school wants are generalists who can play lots of sports, but Erica's only really good at soccer.

[pampz21]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Which is funny, because those who made him barely consider him a magician.


I don't think it was necessary or even beneficial (to the story) to make him such an atypical mage just to show that magicians are weapons. Really, it detracts from that message.


It's more about the presentation than the OPness itself.


As in "wow, he might really die this time (plot armor notwithstanding)".


Which is a bit of a problem, since we've already tapped into the "best in the world" categories (that Chinese guy who's one of top close quarter combatants, and Lina who's the best USNA magician, as well as their go-to girl for anti-magician missions). And we still haven't seen anyone "at his level".


Not really. The feeling I had was that he still had a lot under the hood, and that any difficulty him holding back to not kill her than him being truly cornered.



"He trained for years" is a poor excuse. Lots of kids start martial arts early. How many 15 years old do you see competing against adults in world championships? Zero, that's how many. And he already completely dominated soldiers at 13.



Not to this point. It's as if Einstein discovered Relativity in high school. While keeping a full time job in addition to his school work.




Genetics aren't that straightforward. Just like you can get great magicians out of obscure lineages (like Mari), it's possible for famous families to produce duds. Which Erica isn't, precisely.

But the thing is, Course 1 students are tested for basic specs, and Erica's apparently aren't that good. It's like, they're trying to sort student-athlete, but they test things like muscle tone and lung capacity. Erica's a great soccer player thanks to her excellent ball control, but her tested capacities are bad.

Also, what the school wants are generalists who can play lots of sports, but Erica's only really good at soccer.

Wouldnt that be wierd Tomitsuka is a bloom afterall?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Wouldnt that be wierd Tomitsuka is a bloom afterall?

From vol 1: "...The evaluation of magic technical skills only includes Invocation Speed, the scale of the Magic Sequence, and phenomena rewriting ability."

Range isn't in it. So if he's good at those, and there's no reason to think he isn't, that makes him a bloom.

[kazakiri]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

From vol 1: "...The evaluation of magic technical skills only includes Invocation Speed, the scale of the Magic Sequence, and phenomena rewriting ability."

Range isn't in it. So if he's good at those, and there's no reason to think he isn't, that makes him a bloom.

No it's more an issue of "If he can't use ranged magic, how is he supposed to pass the more generalized tests." (Ep2 showed a test of using move type magic on an object?)

His best magic is Self Marionette. There's no arguing about the invocation speed there, but with regards to scale, it can't be that big of a scale if he's limited to range zero magics.

Phenomena rewriting ability is probably the strength and stability of the magic.

Scale would probably be with regards the "scope of what it affects"