2008-12-18, 14:43 | Link #261 | |||
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Where I disagree is that I don't think that China has any real intention of ever militarily invade Taiwan, so their only option is a peaceful reunification. Quote:
Then again, it's not as if Imperial Japan was some sort of monolithic organization. In fact, a lot of policy decisions that would normally have been made at high levels of government were instead made by relatively junior officers on the ground. Quote:
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2008-12-18, 15:08 | Link #262 | |
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Last edited by Lathdrinor; 2008-12-18 at 15:32. |
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2008-12-18, 15:09 | Link #263 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Or, if we go down those lines, should we say that Mao Zedong's objectives were (1) to create a socialist Chinese utopia and (2) to repel the capitalist, imperialist influence of foreign powers... but "things turned out somewhat differently, a little tragic"? Actually, that's exactly what the CCP still claims to a certain extent, what with Mao being "two-thirds good, one-third bad" according to the official propaganda -_- Anyway, nationalistic rows over history are ultimately pointless. People are free to believe in any version of history they like, as long as they maintain a healthy respect for each other's countries and cultures. I wouldn't give a damn if my Japanese friend prays at Yasukuni, since the fact that we are friends means that we respect each other as fellow humans. Sadly true. It's also very typical of the Chinese government to expect HK to do its bidding "for the economy's sake". It's always about the economy, economy, economy, and Hong Kongers are gullible bait because money is king. |
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2008-12-18, 15:26 | Link #264 | |
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If there's one thing to keep in mind about good and evil, it's that almost nobody thinks of themselves as "evil." Both sides of a conflict believe that they are a force for good, that they are fighting to build a better world. What differentiates people, in history's eyes, is the results of their actions, for the "road to hell," so to speak, is paved with good intentions. |
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2008-12-18, 18:22 | Link #265 | |
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However, with Barack Obama elected in the US and will officially lead the country under his specially selected cabinet of socialists, conservatives, racially diverse and politically diverse people, hopefully the newly changed America will head in the right direction. The number of non-American supports of the US president-elect Barack Obama exceeds the number of American supporters on Election Day meaning that most people in the world have high hopes for the Obama Administration. Will this change bring forth a new era of politics and peace? |
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2008-12-19, 01:45 | Link #266 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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@ Shadow Minato: Those are one-sided views. |
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2008-12-19, 03:16 | Link #267 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
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(a) Stated intent: "Hitler intended out to wipe out the Jewish race" vs. "Japan's 'official motive' was to free Asia from western powers; the Chinese Communist Party's 'goal' was to create a socialist utopia". (b) Scale of the atrocities: "The Nazis killed n million, the CCP killed n million, the Japanese killed n thousand..." (c) The simple fact that atrocities happened: Let's face it: mass killings occured. I don't want to argue whether a thousand, a hundred thousand or a million died. But people died, they were killed brutally, for no reason, and it wasn't the consequence of one man's actions. I suppose this is where people disagree. The "accused" will always point to a and b, the "accuser" will point to c (that said, hot-blooded nationalists on both sides will always concoct random numerical figures to amplify or diminish the "scale" of the atrocity). Last edited by Yukinokesshou; 2008-12-19 at 03:29. |
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2008-12-19, 03:42 | Link #268 |
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Ahh, For Japan's point B was always pointed out by the acuser(ROC later adopted by PRC) and that is where most of historical debate boils down to.
Nanking and 731 both historically occured that I concur but the numbers, who and how it happened leading to why is something I have a very different view with the accusers especially when you see ulterior political motives behind them. Nanking was a battle field with many fleeing soldiers who removed their uniform and hid within the city walls. Since battle occured there would natually be bodies of soldiers. Stating that those are all victims are simply foolish and said to be proof photographs that were later found to be doctored, completely out of context, or just plainly had nothing to do with the incident all adds doubt. |
2008-12-19, 04:00 | Link #269 |
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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600 thousand experimental subjects. You are right, the act does not fit the description of genocide, but, it is an equally despicable act. Actually when you read through what happened around that time, the cruelty of Nazi Germans may look more humane compared to what the Japanese performed on their test subjects. And, I guess that says a lot about it.
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2008-12-19, 04:03 | Link #270 | ||
ドジ
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The "accused" will always point to A and B, the "accuser" will point to B and C. With regard to B, hot-blooded nationalists on both sides will always concoct random numerical figures to amplify or diminish the "scale" of the atrocity, but in my opinion, this is ultimately pointless. Quote:
What memories cannot prove, of course, is the scale of the atrocities. That's why I don't want to haggle over how many people died. Suffice to say that civilians as well as soldiers were killed, by brutal methods, and not only in the heat of battle. |
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2008-12-19, 04:05 | Link #271 | |
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Especially when the US confiscated all documents it's sound more like a random number that was pulled out of a hat to say this is how large the incident was. That is exactly what creates doubt on both sides. |
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2008-12-19, 04:13 | Link #272 |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Good grief, just as I am saying that arguments over numbers are pointless, one such dispute has already broken out -__-. But I agree with Tri Ring on the point that such random numbers "pulled out of a hat" do more harm than good in inflaming both sides.
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2008-12-19, 04:17 | Link #273 |
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I don't know the accuracy of the number 580 thousand mentioned at Wikipedia, but, if a figure as high as this is being mentioned, then the actual number is guaranteed to be a high one (average with the lower end, and you get ~400 thousand). And, even if the actual number is lower, would that make the act any more human or acceptable?
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2008-12-19, 04:20 | Link #274 | |
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Forget 400,000. Even if the figure is 5000, would that make the act more human or acceptable? |
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2008-12-19, 04:29 | Link #275 | |
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You are bound to hit a wall, in many people's heads, if you try to keep the number very low, especially if it is not that low. Because, some people have a tendency to put the guilt on a small number of people, hence reducing the role of a larger party, if the damage is presented as being small. But, if the actual scale is large, you cannot say the same thing, and you cannot mask the act easily. So, the figures actually draw the line between ignorance and importance. And if the numbers point to the importance, would you prefer to omit it or instead would you prefer to use it to emphasize the importance of the act? |
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2008-12-19, 04:47 | Link #276 | |
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That had never been done in any of the cases which leads to pointing the blaming to the entire nation and not the one who was directly responsible making it emotionally difficult to bury the hatchet. Second numbers are also a factoring point in assuming the motive to the action which needs to be put out into the open for future prevention. To my understanding the 731 unit did experiments on human subject to gain better understanding of the human atonomy for better survival in the battle field. YES they used humans as guinea pigs. I also believe they did field tests with biological and chemical weapons.(probably not in a large scale since if it was a science experiment they'll need to know the accurate number of casulties against the exact number of samples.) The question was the 731 unit wasn't that big some where in the few thousands(?) and most had second assignments to maintain sanatory level at the front line so how could they have linked to so many deaths? This leads to ulterior political motives on the accuser's side trying to paint a broader picture to manipulate the general populous to sway other agenda like what they did in the 90's so they can devert interest from Tiananmen square. |
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2008-12-19, 05:10 | Link #277 | |
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2008-12-19, 05:40 | Link #278 | |
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2008-12-19, 06:02 | Link #279 | |
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2008-12-19, 06:06 | Link #280 | |
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As long as you are not able to point who are accountable then it will always be used with an ulterior political motives to attack a nation(Japan) linking present people who has nothing to do with the problem. If you want to discuss it as the past you first need to be able to point a person or a group with faces who are accountable. Point out what exactly was the problem, the extent of the problem, the motive and who were the victims and again not a simple mass like the Chinese people in general. (were they soldiers in civilian clothing, were they mis-represented people, were they sympathizers or were they simply bystanders) People can atone to a problem when they know what exactly was that problem but will not accept nor apology to a generalized situation say you were all evil and we are the victims therefore you all need to apologize till eternity. |
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