Danganronpa 3: Future Arc - Episode 12 Discussion [END] / Poll

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Wow, even after the truth came out you guys really can't let it go, can you?

If you had carefully read my posts I already let go, and the other thing besides the 'SHSL level bad writing tengan did it' thing I am bothered with is the fact that they filled all the holes by using a meta comment from the most untrustable and fickle character in the entire series instead of a rational comment from a more rational character whi is actually still alive rather than a complete nut job, not them being dead. (Aside from maybe the animation screwup with the height difference and the chandelier)

If for example Ishimaru would have appeared there too saying 'after all we are all dead' I would still be bothered by the fact that they revealed it in the meta world, although a lot less than when Junko, who is pretty much the most deceptive character there is, did it.

Chisa culprit was (note the was here) totally explainable up to that point;
Maybe my problem with the Meta revalation can be explained better with pictures:

Images

What I expected

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Images

What I got

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Spoiler for Just in case you don't know the second one:

In case you don't know the second one - That one also has a meta world, with the difference that it is far more integreted into the story

Originally Posted by stray

I mean... someone had to die first. And the fact they were moved means the mastermind either had control of that or at the very least knew who the first was going to be. Although I suppose its possible Tengan hired really crappy movers or just slept through it.

As an aside have you ever heard of the term "confirmation bias"?

Yes I have heard of it, and if you meant that as a jab, sorry but that applies to both of us.
We were clearly told that the clostest ones to the monitor get woken up and become the culprit (in whatever form) - for the first round the closest one to a monitor was Chisa. Feel free to rewatch the scene right before they get knocked out you will find that Chisa collapsed pretty much right in front of it.

So, unless they make a 380° and go 'Munataka did it' there was no way for the culprit to control that Chisa would be the one to go there as Munataka was the one telling her to go call help, not Tengan.

[Dengar]

Wait, your argument is that Yukizome can't have been the closest because she was the closest? Ok I likely have that wrong but idk how else to read it. We know the closest to a monitor dies, and Yukizome was indeed the closest to a monitor. This all makes sense, so what in blazes is the anomaly here?

You say 'there is no way for the culprit to control and make her the first victim'. But I'm confused, who in this topic claimed that the culprit did such a thing?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Wait, your argument is that Yukizome can't have been the closest because she was the closest? Ok I likely have that wrong but idk how else to read it. We know the closest to a monitor dies, and Yukizome was indeed the closest to a monitor. This all makes sense, so what in blazes is the anomaly here?

You say 'there is no way for the culprit to control and make her the first victim'. But I'm confused, who in this topic claimed that the culprit did such a thing?

No, my argument is that Chisa died because she was closest to the monitor, and her death thus being mere chance.
Stray on the other hand claimed that the first kill was a free to choose and Chisa thus implying Chisa was chosen on purpose rather than because of the fact that she happened to be closest to the screen.


Basically it is these comments we are arguing about which imho heavily implies Tengan killed Yukizome first because he didn't trust her rather than her being closest to the screen:

Originally Posted by stray

Inception isn't enough for you? And didn't we see it enough in Despair side?

I sort of doubt Tengan ever fully trusted Yukizome after that. Especially considering she was the first victim.

Originally Posted by stray

Did... you forget the part where everyone was moved from the upstairs conference room to the underwater lookalike?

That first kill was a freebie. Tengan could have set up anyone he wanted.

So if we go by the monitor thing we were told being right the only one who actually influenced her to go to the monitor was Munataka, not Tengan.
Thus as long as they don't suddenly go 'actually it was Munataka after all trololololol' Tengan had no control over whether Yukizome died first her being the first victim was mere chance, rather than Tengan having planned her being killed off first.

If Tengan would have said ' Yukizome go to the screen and call for help' you could say he planned to kill her first - however the one who sent her there was Munataka, not Tengan. Her death was thus left up to chance rather than being a targetted attack against her.

That is with the current knoweldge we gained from the characters - they may as well go with no suicide video having been shown to anyone at all theme next episode.

[Homura7]

The anomaly, or rather the odd thing, was that the first person to die happened to conveniently be the one whose death effectively made Munakata start to lose his sanity.

And that no matter how you want to look at it, gives more than one reason to suspect. There were 15 people, and it had to be precisely her!

Tengan couldn't have possibly anticipated this. To start with, his plans got ruined the moment Mitarai entered the room.

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Maybe my problem with the Meta revalation can be explained better with pictures:

Ok wait did you just shit on Beato?

Monaca is Junko's successor; having Chisa take over Monokuma would be like Alfred becoming Batman or something. Just... no.

Look man you've been married to the Chisa mastermind idea for a long time and have ignored a lot of evidence that contradicted you instead hoping for asspulls from Killer Killer and herbs or poisons or whatever that can make someone look dead. I get that you're disappointed, but its hard to be sympathetic. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Dengar

You say 'there is no way for the culprit to control and make her the first victim'. But I'm confused, who in this topic claimed that the culprit did such a thing?

I did. Yukizome died during the round everyone was moved from upstairs to underwater. All I'm saying is the "rules" didn't necessarily have to apply for that first round.

Look, someone moved everybody. Someone put bangles on everybody. The game may have been unattended during subsequent rounds, but it wasn't that first round. That someone could have made sure a certain other someone was their first victim.

If you don't like the theory, don't... but the participants didn't exactly walk themselves to the underwater facility.

[Homura7]

There has to be a reason for the bangles, too.

Some of the NG seemed to be planted with a specific purpose. Namely:

Bandai NG: Witness violence. I don't see any reason to kill him off the first other than he wasn't actually as harmless as he looked. Like, maybe he was an accomplice all along and the culprit wanted to get rid of him first before he could speak.

Asahina NG: Taking a punch or a kick. Again, this one seemed to have been set to force Asahina run away from battles, and conveniently it also provided Naegi with a means to move fast through hallways.

Tengan NG: The most blatant one. What it seemed to suggest was that Tengan hasn't always told the truth when presented with an uncomfortable question he had to answer.

Kirigiri NG: It almost feels like the culprit set this one to test out if Kirigiri really cared for Naegi to the point she would be willing to give up her life for him, and also to ultimately force Naegi stop running away.

Mitarai NG: Like, this guy with his talent alone could have forced everybody to understand each other and cooperate to find a solution together. It would have also prevented deaths.

There's still something that is missing in this whole thing.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by stray

Ok wait did you just shit on Beato?

No I wasn't shitting on Beato - I was referring to the idea of giving valuable information in a Metaverse

Originally Posted by stray

Monaca is Junko's successor; having Chisa take over Monokuma would be like Alfred becoming Batman or something. Just... no.

More like Robin to become Batman, who indeed did in some metaverses. Heck there was even an episode where Superman did a stand in for Batman THAT one was 'Just... no'
Lets also not forget that Junko herself described the despairs, and thus also chisa, as extensions of herself. - the one who claimed to be her successor was no one but Monaca herself, and she gave up on it rather suddenly too.

Thats like a certain presidential candidate saying he is the successor of M.L. King and some random guy saying 'Ok I will help you become more M.L. King than he ever was'

Originally Posted by stray

Look man you've been married to the Chisa mastermind idea for a long time and have ignored a lot of evidence that contradicted you instead hoping

No i didn't ignore it at all.
I choose to prefer an alternative that was offered by the universe itself which is a huge difference from 'ignoring stuff' -
Like it or not, looking at the entire universe both Chisa - culprit and Chisa dead were 100% explainable and both had parts that relied on chance.

Furthermore, considering how there were several people around the world believing her to be the culprit/mastermind the idea can't be even half as outlandish as you pretend.

Originally Posted by stray

for asspulls from Killer Killer and herbs or poisons or whatever that can make someone look dead. I get that you're disappointed, but its hard to be sympathetic. Sorry.

Please enlighten me: How are happenings from a canon story, playing in the very same universe as the main story, where everything connects more of an asspull than what they did now?

That is pretty much like saying Junko erasing 77ths memories of Izuru is an asspull from DR1 and DR0.

Also, correct me if I am mistaking you for someone else here, but wasn't it you who told me that the other DR media, which killer killer is, should be taken for the solution instead of taking only DR3 alone?

And no, as I stated 5 times by now, the thing I am dissappointed about is not that they were dead all along but how they not only confirmed it in metaverse (by Junko of all people) but also Tengan's motive being completely nonsensical, making him being the culprit the actual asspull in my eyes.

Heck you could have made Juzou the culrpit and I wouldn't have cared less, but Tengans Motive is just a huge taunt in comparison to pretty much any other mastermind they could have had.

[Homura7]

Tengan lied.

Remember, the video Mitarai watched is a recording Tengan did hours or days before the Killing Game started.

And his NG was 'Answering a question with a lie'.

The way he looks at the camera when he confesses his involvement is that of someone who is telling lies. The way he articulates his words blows his facade.

Because he isn't one of the Remnants. So he had no reason at all to do what he was implied.

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

More like Robin to become batman, who indeed did in some metaverses.

I KNOW AND MONACA IS OBVIOUSLY ROBIN HERE FFS SHE EVEN HAS GREEN HAIR

Alfred = butler
Chisa = maid

Stop trying to hijack my analogy into things that don't make any sense.

Also, correct me if I am mistaking you for someone else here, but wasn't it you who told me that the other DR media, which killer killer is, should be taken for the solution instead of taking only DR3 alone?

I might have brought up Zero, especially WRT Junko's characterization and true SHSL talent, but I haven't suggested Killer Killer. Don't get me wrong, I like it; it reminds me a lot of a Dexter except really cartoonish... but its labeled Gaiden and almost certainly supplemental.

And no, as I stated 5 times by now, the thing I am dissappointed about is not that they were dead all along but how they not only confirmed it in metaverse (by Junko of all people) but also Tengan's motive being completely nonsensical, making him being the culprit the actual asspull in my eyes.

Heck you could have made Juzou the culrpit and I wouldn't have cared less, but Tengans Motive is just a huge taunt in comparison to pretty much any other mastermind they could have had.

Speaking of Killer Killer we've now got 2 heroic serial killers in the DR canon. It seems like a lot of people hate the world building; that's one thing I really appreciate about both animes. It is not a happy world, at all, and with the red sky it kinda looks like Evangelion after too many near impacts. In that context, to me... yeah, Tengan having lost his damn mind long ago makes a lot of sense.

I don't really get why people expect 1:1 from Despair to the present. Despair told us how it all went to shit, but its been years now in which it has been shit. And Tengan was pretty deeply involved in the Kamakura project, so he was kind of always shit.

[Homura7]

That still doesn't justify that he dragged Mitarai, the one person he entrusted the future and the world, into this mess.

Unless as I said, Tengan got sabotaged. Which is looking pretty likely.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by stray

I KNOW AND MONACA IS OBVIOUSLY ROBIN HERE FFS SHE EVEN HAS GREEN HAIR

Alfred = butler
Chisa = maid

Uhm no Monaca is far away from being a former sidekick - even further than Chisa.
All Monaca actually did for her was having a supportive role by providing Monokumas. She is actually closer to Alfred who is both providing information and first aid then Chisa.

Chisa on the other hand was even described as an extension of Junko's by Junko herself - which has much more value than Monaca's claims.

Oh speaking of green haired characters in that regard: Robin had black hair.
The one you are thinking about is the Joker, who has indeed been posing as batman too

Also Chisa isn't a maid but a housekeeper - while the difference is really blurry the it is still there. The actual SHSL Maid is seen in V3.
Although whether those terms aren't the same is apaprently a general matter of dispute.

Originally Posted by stray

I don't really get why people expect 1:1 from Despair to the present. Despair told us how it all went to shit, but its been years now in which it has been shit. And Tengan was pretty deeply involved in the Kamakura project, so he was kind of always shit.

And if you remember he told Hinata that he was against it.

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

All Monaca actually did for her was having a supportive role by providing Monokumas. She is actually closer to Alfred who is both providing information and first aid then Chisa.

Actually that would make her Lucius Fox, but I think the analogy has run its course at this point.

(and Chisa is still Alfred)

And if you remember he told Hinata that he was against it.

Tengan is so hard to gauge as far as working with the Trustees/Steering Committee is concerned. We don't really see them in Despair... Munkata mentions that Junko has gotten control of them in Despair but that story mainly happens in Zero. I guess this is one of those times suggesting non-game material...

So anyway... is there any actual evidence for a 16th person anymore? All I got is:

The Counter
Kirigiri laying on her back
Cure W

...all of which are fairly circumstantial.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by stray

The Counter
Kirigiri laying on her back
Cure W

...all of which are fairly circumstantial.

Ironically the counter is part of the reason a lot of people used to think it would be Chisa too.
The gag is that you don't know whether Hagakure counts in there. As such the counter going down wasn't necessarily meant for Chisa.

Now that we can say they are dead, thanks to their outrageous method of presenting us with it, you can actually expand that.

Since Hagakure wasn't part of the game the counter shouldn't have gone down just 1 point but actually 2 when Chisa died.

1 for Hagakure who managed to stay out of the game
1 for Chisa who died.

and should thus have been 14 rather than 15.
As such the actual Mastermind/Monokuma has to count in.


In addition there is a good chance Miaya died around the same time they were put to sleep - this one can't be confimred as we don't know how long the sleep phases last, especially the first one where they were moved.

The point is at the end of the day the counter should have been 14 instead of 16, since neither Genocider's nor Togami's changed the numer. You can thus say that there were 16 potential targets inside the building.

[pervypig]

Too much stuff dun relly make much sense in both arcs. For instance, why would Chisa give Tengan the 2 videos when she can just brainwash everyone into despair and win from the get go? Assuming that she knew Tengan's going to do some despairingly-marvelous stuff, why not just brainwash him before all that? And Junko made a point about Naegi bringing class 77 into the New World Programme in order to restore their personalities which is in a way no different from what Mitarai is going to do, so why did he bother to stop him? Brainwashing people has about as much limits as 'a wizard did it' - it's the hallmarks of lazy scriptwriting - and I'm honestly disappointed.

[Homura7]

There was indeed a 16th participant, but it was Hagakure all along. When the game started he was deducted from the list. And if you payed attention to that Monokuma screen, there were only 15 sprites. Then Chisa's sprite was deducted, leaving only 14. That means Chisa was the 15th. But the survivor counter in that same episode still marked 15 survivors. This is where it all started.

To confirm that, in episode 4 Monokuma did a recap and told to the audience there were 12 people alive. But the counter marked 13 survivors.

The thing is, what determines if someone is counted as a part of the game is not even being outside or inside the building. It's the bangles. The bangles are placed around the wrist and that lets the monitors trace a victim through his pulse. This is the very reason the nearest person to a monitor is the one who wakes up first.

In other words, when Sakakura hacked his arm off he was still deducted because he no longer was playing by the game rules.

Now onto Kirigiri and the Cure W.

This medicine has been heavily foreshadowed to save a life. But Kirigiri even with all her talent couldn't have ascertained it might neutralize the poison. If she had found out she would have shared the medicine with all the survivors that were still left. That in turn would have effectively ended the game. But the only way you could tell that was if you took the medicine yourself and waited for it to make effect.

At first I thought Kirigiri had a secret plan. But now I can say for certain she was ready to die. She was ready to relinquish her life for the one that meant all to her.

And Kirigiri fell asleep forward. Yet she was in supine position when they woke up. And as they went to her, Asahina knocked the bottle of Cure W that we could see rolling in the frame corner for a split second.

So if Kirigiri didn't take the medicine, my conclusion is that someone administered her the Cure W.

And before anyone says Kirigiri had the medicine all along, no, she didn't. Because Munakata looted Seiko's corpse first and took her roid serum. Yet, he still retains his wounds from his battle with Tengan.

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

In addition there is a good chance Miaya died around the same time they were put to sleep - this one can't be confimred as we don't know how long the sleep phases last, especially the first one where they were moved.

That seems like a stretch... one of Togami's people found Gekkogahara so she probably never even got close to the island.

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

And before anyone says Kirigiri had the medicine all along, no, she didn't. Because Munakata looted Seiko's corpse first and took her roid serum. Yet, he still retains his wounds from his battle with Tengan.

Ok yeah if someone was scavenging during sleep time it would make sense where the Cure W came from to begin with. Although I guess the Cure W fakeout could have just been to keep people from dropping the show in a rage... but...

Anyway I can't get into the idea Mitarai was 'summoned' by a mystery person, if anything I think he went because he was curious about Naegi. And as others have said Tengan's plan is probably more successful with Mitarai having taken part in the game; his NG code has him wanting to use his talent more than ever, and I doubt he was ever at risk from the suicide video. And nobody knew him or cared about him enough to really try to kill him outright.

The question in my mind is still Monaca being there and I guess if Chisa found out Tengan's plan in advance.

[matt619]

Originally Posted by pervypig

Too much stuff dun relly make much sense in both arcs. For instance, why would Chisa give Tengan the 2 videos when she can just brainwash everyone into despair and win from the get go? Assuming that she knew Tengan's going to do some despairingly-marvelous stuff, why not just brainwash him before all that? And Junko made a point about Naegi bringing class 77 into the New World Programme in order to restore their personalities which is in a way no different from what Mitarai is going to do, so why did he bother to stop him? Brainwashing people has about as much limits as 'a wizard did it' - it's the hallmarks of lazy scriptwriting - and I'm honestly disappointed.

fist of all, what Naegi did to class 77th is different with what Mitarai doing. All of class 77th agreed to enter neo world program, so Naegi didn't force them and just persuaded them. and also Neo world program only class 77th's their memory to their pre-despair state. but Mitarai wants to force his own ideals to other people witout their consent and make them unable to feel negative emotion like sadness, anger, etc. like Munakata said you can't call people like that a human

and for Tengan case, how is Chisa supposed to do to make Tengan watch the brainwash video? the student council killing video probably isn't gonna work with Tengan cause Tengan is strong-willed person except Chisa had to immobilize him and tied him in the chair which is obviously she cannot do since Tengan stronger than her, not to mention he always sorrounded by people like Great Gozu so it will be harder for Chisa, and Chiaki torture video isn't gonna work either cause that only work to people acquaintanced with Chiaki like Class 77th
Same with other FF member, that video isn't gonna work on them except for few people like Seiko or Bandai

and of course there's another suicide video. but if what Chisa want is to throw future foundation into despair then, there's no point if all of them commited suicide. despair only work if they killing each other, not commited suicide

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by matt619

fist of all, what Naegi did to class 77th is different with what Mitarai doing. All of class 77th agreed to enter neo world program, so Naegi didn't force them and just persuaded them. and also Neo world program only class 77th's their memory to their pre-despair state. but Mitarai wants to force his own ideals to other people witout their consent and make them unable to feel negative emotion like sadness, anger, etc. like Munakata said you can't call people like that a human

and for Tengan case, how is Chisa supposed to do to make Tengan watch the brainwash video? the student council killing video probably isn't gonna work with Tengan cause Tengan is strong-willed person except Chisa had to immobilize him and tied him in the chair which is obviously she cannot do since Tengan stronger than her, not to mention he always sorrounded by people like Great Gozu so it will be harder for Chisa, and Chiaki torture video isn't gonna work either cause that only work to people acquaintanced with Chiaki like Class 77th
Same with other FF member, that video isn't gonna work on them except for few people like Seiko or Bandai

and of course there's another suicide video. but if what Chisa want is to throw future foundation into despair then, there's no point if all of them commited suicide. despair only work if they killing each other, not commited suicide

Actually the Chiaki video is exactly whart caused the world to despair.
It had several brain washing methods contained in it and was just the finishing touch the the student council killing part. - Junko even said that herself.

[matt619]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Actually the Chiaki video is exactly whart caused the world to despair.
It had several brain washing methods contained in it and was just the finishing touch the the student council killing part. - Junko even said that herself.

okay, but that doesn't change my point above. not every one in the world becomes despair that means the video doesn't work on everyone and FF clearly doesn't affected by that video

the only video that works for everyone is Monokuma gloomy sunday video

[stray]

Originally Posted by Alpha Knight

The thing is, what determines if someone is counted as a part of the game is not even being outside or inside the building. It's the bangles. The bangles are placed around the wrist and that lets the monitors trace a victim through his pulse. This is the very reason the nearest person to a monitor is the one who wakes up first.

I've been avoiding acknowledging the counter but with one day left I might as well. Pulse doesn't necessarily work since Gekkogahara is a robot. So... possibilities...

1. If Hakagure counted then so did Juzo and Kirigiri is dead.
   
2. If it was counting only people inside the building then Kirigiri is still dead but the 16th person is alive.
   
3. If it was counting "active" bangles by some other method then Kirigiri and the 16th could still be counted while Sakakura would have dropped off.
4. Kodaka and Lerche are just trolls.

Tengan may have shuffled bangles given Mitarai's involvement so if there was a 'master(mind)' bangle that gave someone the ability to stay awake during sleep time it could have gone to the 16th. If there is one. Because if they were there to 'sabotage' the game or something like that there's no need for them to have a bangle unless Monaca found the spare and was being a dick.

So... I dunno. Some things would make more sense with a 16th but its hard to make a case for them to exist.