2008-03-17, 04:59 | Link #1001 | |||
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2) At the scale of the scene, it might even be too thin to be visible. 3) If not appearing = definitely not existing, then by that standard we didn't see the barrier jacket's barrier in that smokecloud either, so it couldn't have protected Fate. Quote:
Anyway, the big problem with the idea of the barrier jacket doing the job of saving Fate in those scenes, which you and tshoryuu keep forgetting is ever the problem of surviving the deceleration. If you insist that the BJ did it, since BJ barriers/fields/whatever are clearly extremely close to the body (there, ATC, I've said one thing about BJs now), the decelerative forces are extremely high. Even if I grant the ridiculous premise of a KE nullifier (say I somehow dump all the KE into deforming the wall/ground), it will not change the fact that Fate decelerated at an extreme G force. Which is to say that she's going to become a splat anyway as her own body squashes itself. Her only chance is 1) increased decelerative time to reduce loadings or 2) an magicobabble inertial dampener. Tshoryuu has already refused 2 as "fantasy" when Tk proposed it. While I won't categorically refuse 2 (we are dealing with magic and it may indeed turn out upon detailed calculation that 1 won't have enough magnitude to save Fate, forcing the need for 2), it isn't my first choice for similar reasons. So, we are both left with 1. For 1 to be valid, it needs a defense far away from the body - active defense. So given that it is not uncategorically refused by the canon ... But if 1 is valid, then there is no need for the BJ to have somehow saved Fate through the impact, and thus tshoryuu's examples lose their meaning. |
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2008-03-17, 05:23 | Link #1002 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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And the best part is, I can look at that now and go "I agree!" without having to cross examine twenty million posts and go "HUH? What the HELL are you getting at?" As for TK, feh. You misunderstood, and I already explained it to you in IRC. |
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2008-03-17, 06:09 | Link #1003 | ||
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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If Fate loses KE, doesn't that mean that the G forces are also reduced as well? Since Fate is the moving object, doesn't losing KE equal losing speed and hence reducing G forces? Quote:
Offhand I do not remember if we do see other fields in action so I can only use AMF as an example. |
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2008-03-17, 07:56 | Link #1004 | ||
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Even AMF fields by default are held rather close to the Gadget drones body. they can extend them to try and interfere with other people's magical preparations, but that's a "conscious" move. And barrier jackets, as far as can be determined, have their defenses even closer. In fact, you can touch each other, as can the wind. |
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2008-03-17, 11:24 | Link #1005 | |||
Residential Nutcase
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And how did you determine that? Besides it was stated in the manga that fields block certain environmental effects such as temperature. Never was it stated that fields block physical contact. |
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2008-03-17, 13:22 | Link #1007 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Pretty sure Panzergeist is a barrier according to the StrikerS manga definitions.
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2008-03-17, 14:50 | Link #1009 | |||||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
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Well, unless that description says otherwise my understanding of the distinction between fields and barriers would lead me to conclude that Panzergeist is a barrier, and the similarity with Vita's field is just a case of the animation team reusing the pattern or something.
Of course since drone AMF went from 'plasma lancer is useless' to 'can be penetrated by Midchildan Army grunts' between StrikerS manga and StrikerS maybe I should just forget about what StrikerS manga said about fields... Quote:
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Though I'm left with the irrelevant but nagging question of what Yuuno is doing his bashing with, and why. I would think you would avoid charging directly at a berserk construct with a magitech hammer that you KNOW just beat down someone with way more magical power and combat experience than you. Quote:
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But couldn't I just start doing that too, and claim that all of Nanoha as we see it is an in-universe animation created based on Nanoha's exploits? After all, it fits the evidence and explains the inconsistencies really well... ...that's a bit too meta for after midnight, ugh. Quote:
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2008-03-17, 16:06 | Link #1010 |
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Hmm... Still insane eh?
Well, I'm rested, and I think I've compiled my idea (after a long IRC conversation with TK last night) for it. This will not be an attempt to predict what the writers at 7arcs were thinking, but an attempt to take what they've put out, and encompass the inconsistencies in a system that accounts for exceptions. Pt 1: Construction A Barrier Jacket is magical clothing that guard and protects mages as a last line of defense. The jacket is formed VIA magical construction during the 'transformation' stage of Mage operation. Once formed, the Jacket becomes a seperate entity from the device that formed it. The Jacket is composed of visually appealing clothing, defenive focused fields, and barriers. The Clothing itself does not have any value in the actual defense of the mage. It acts merely as a dress uniform to ensure freedome of movement, identification, and as an indicator of physical damage sustained. It does however, act as an anchor point for the defensive fields and barriers. These physical clothes will stay in place until destroyed physically, or willed away by 'powering down', reguardless of the condition/status of the mage wearing them. Physical defense could be augmented by the placement of actual solid armor on the jacket material, but is not a requirement. The field(s) of the mage serve as a local area defensive mechanism, working to the tastes of a particular mage as an augmentation. Fields general purposes serve as inertial distribution, filtering, and impact. They are anchored via the jacket clothing to the mage, and are powered directly by the mage. The barrier provides direct defense against impact trauma. It is a force distributor. Pt 2: Maganics (Magical Mechanics?) The Jacket Clothing (Reffered to from here on out simply as The Jacket), is composed of magically formed material ressembling cloth. This material is all but normal, save for probably being made of a kevlar-like fiber, and having an anchoring embedded in it for the fields and barrier. Once formed, it operates independently of the device used to create it. In other words, the Jacket is REAL. I back this with Subaru. Despite Mach Calibur being damage beyond functionality, her jacket remains, despite her trashed state. For Fields, there are at least two discernable functions. One is as a filter for the atmosphere as seen in strikers, the other is as an inertial distribution mechanism. While the filter is obvious in function, the I.D. field may need explanation. But this is perfect for what fields are. Fields, by Nanohaverse definition, radiate from a source and fill volume. By this function, a field is perfect for evenly distributing the effects of an inertia change, especially radical ones. What occures, is that upon a sudden change in direction and velocity (IOW: Sudden Accelleration), the field distributes the altered inertia evenly to all parts of a mage's body, without applying compromsing physical force to the outside, thus allowing the mage to achieve insane accllerations so long as this field is active. A minor problem is that fields gradually decrease in power the further from the source they get. This WOULD be a problem with a Point Source. But since the field is anchored to the Jacket, the 'source' pretty much encompassas the mage, which means the field has maximum effect on the mage and immediate objects the mage may possess. The other note about fields, is that as a FIELD, you can place several of them in the same volume without problematic interactions, thus, a filter, and inertial dispersion simultaniously. The barrier, while still simple, is probably the most complicated component. As stated by discussion on barriers in general, the strength of a barrier is based, not on its power, but by its construction, or should we say, composition. In this case, most barriers seem to be implied to be solid and inflexible. This would be a bad type of barrier to use in a Jacket. Such a barrier would prevent functional tactile use of the hands on objects outside the mage, or interaction with the environment, without having to be shut off and turned on constantly. Instead, the Jacket's barrier may actually be constructed in an alternate way to other barriers. This barrier's construction, or what I call Composition, would be more fitting to be elastic in nature. The exact nature of magical energy is unknown, but one could say that barrier construction for jackets has long since become uniform in functionality based on requirement. In this case, the barrier consists of a flexible magical 'mesh' (This is merely a visualisable term to an energy form, not litteral.) that is flexible, elastic, and compresses. This mesh was designed long ago to deal with the most common element a mage would deal with. Blunt Trauma. Since in general, blunt trauma would be more common than other effects caused by actual combat, even outside of combat, it's like the mage equal to having a hard-hat of sorts. The elasticity and flexibility of the field gives the mage freedom of movement, and the ability to interact as if it wasn't there, allowing them to operate without the pesky, or even dangerous task of turning it on, and off, and on, and off... over and over during their actions. However, when experiencing blunt trauma, AKA, impact, the barrier is compressed. The compression of the barrier increases its density, and causes it to distribute that force across its surface, away from the mage as much as possible. The inherent flexibility of the barrier still allows impact to bleed through, but not in the magnitude it was orginially intended. The weakness comes in the form of non-blunt trauma. Due to the nature of the barrier's construction, it cannot guard so well against actions which slice (tearing force) or stab (Piercing force). These forces do not compress the barrier in the manner which allows it to become dense and distribute the force, and instead, punches through with minimal effort. This would fall into consistancy with the various laccerations, cuts, slices, and stabs mages recieve throughout their combat. These include Fate and Signum's fighting, Nanoha getting stabbed, Erio making it to Nanoha's jacket with Strada, Rein getting sliced by a bug, Erio getting sliced by Sei, Vita getting a Replay on herself of Nanoha getting 'shanked' and other 'lesser' injuries that involve one of the above mentioned forms of injury. Pt 3: Catastrophic Incidents. One of the biggest problems now of the Barrier Jacket, is its seemingly superhuman defense of a mage going through an event which quite frankly, should render them a bloody smear. The situation to note is Fate, not once, but TWICE, impacting Reinforced Concrete with the force of an artillery round. This can actually be accounted for as a composite of the propperties and sub-propperties of the Barrier Jacket working together as a whole defense system. First, and foremost that comes to mind, is impact, into, and through six floors of a reinforced concrete structure. (A building.) If the Barrier on the jacket only compresses and distributes force, how did she withstand impact? Easy. A backup propperty of the elastic barrier's compression. The Explosive Reaction Thresshold. (Fancy term, think no more of it.) Similar effect has been seen on active defenses, such as Jacket Purge and Barrier Burst... However this one is inherent to the composition (construction) of the barrier. At a certain compression limit, it is obvious the barrier is not going to be able to distribute the force of the blow around the mage. While the barrier is not sentient, the people who came up with its design, were. It contains a built in limit in which the barrier will 'recoil' or 'snap back' or 'react'... throwing energy into the impact. The discharge, in effect, works in the same light as Explosive Reactive Armor on tanks. If the impact is coming from an object or attack, or otherwise, the effect is knocking that attack off course, slowing it down, and dispersing its energy. If that impact is the result of the ground, or in our case of management, six floors of concrete, the discharge PULVERIZES the impact area... In the case of the concrete, blowing a hole three times as wide as fate is tall in it (estimated), and kicking up a huge dust cloud. The fact that she blew through six floors shows just how much force she struck it with, and how much explosive reactive detonation her barrier dished out before she came to a stop. The next problem, is accelleration. In the offending scene, face undergoes accelleration equal to being shot out of a canon, twice. First upon being struck by signum, and the second at impact. Surviving accelleration could be tied to her BJ's Inertial distribution field, allowing her to wistand higher accellerations than normal. On top of this, with Fate's specialty being in speed and mobility, she gets bonus points on this field to deal with her rather common high speed accllerations. If this same 'smash' were tried on say Nanoha, her lack of focus on speed enhancement may not have allowed her to withstand those two accellerations the same way Fate did. We cannot test this however. I would put it to say that Fate's Impacts with concrete would be the absolute upper end of the abilities of a jacket to safely protect the mage, and only because she was speciallized did she withstand insane accelleration. I wouldn't suggest trying it on anyone else. The margin for error and catastrophic defense failure is small and has a high price. Pt 4: Contradictory issues. Of issues that contradict with the protective ability of the Jackets for things like impacts and falls, there is the implicated issues of mages falling and coming to great harm. 1 - Yuuno saves Nanoha when Fate blindsides her with a photon lancer attack. 2 - Chrono catches himself before hitting the ground after getting a boot to the head by our disguised catgirls. 3 - Caro 'saves' Erio after being thrown off the train. Of the three instances, one and three stand out the most. In these instances, both 'victims' getting saved were unconcious. It is plausable based on some (admittedly sketchy) reasoning that a mage must be concious to feed magical inergy to the Jacket's defenses (Barrier and Fields), or they simply fizzle out, or fade away, or die out, or whatever. They stop working. Thus, if a mage falls unconcious, they're open to physical attack as much as any mundane person. The only case of unconcious defense that I can think of that would counter this one, would be Vivio's Saint Armor. However, that being a special genetic trait rather than a standard Barrier Jacket mechanism, can be dismissed as "Not even CLOSE to the same thing." |
2008-03-17, 19:06 | Link #1011 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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A magical field defense that Belka Knights, who don't have an Auto-Guard, use to cover themselves. A barrier (Ed: this is the one time they use barrier; guess they hadn't gotten their terminology all down yet...) that covers the whole body, it especially has "overwhelming" defensive ability against magical attacks. At full output, it is a Field strong enough to resist "bombardment" magic, but full power extension expends a lot of energy, and requires a high level of skill to use in real combat.
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2008-03-17, 19:14 | Link #1012 |
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Panzergeist: The defensive magic that covers Signum. Because it is not possible to cover the whole body while attacking, it is concentrated at a defensive point to deflect Fate's attack. Defenser Plus: Fate's defensive magic. Rather than blocking, it aims to "slide off" an enemies attack. By concentration at a point, its defensive abilities are increased. |
2008-03-17, 20:13 | Link #1013 | |||
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See also when Vita flings Swallow Fliers at the real thing - the extension is small as well. Quote:
Because I'm not a lawyer, I'll give you one chance to rethink this move. |
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2008-03-17, 20:36 | Link #1014 | ||||||
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Yunno is probably doing his bashing with a shield. And it makes some sense for him to try and keep Vita reasonably engaged. Since Vita has more power than him, she might suddenly charge up and do a Big Move. By keeping her engaged, he can use his superior skill at barriers to ever so slowly eat up Vita's energy in skirmishes while not letting her charge into a Big Move that will smash through anything he can put up. If he can keep it up long enough, he might just get ahead in the energy curve. Quote:
Spoiler for SoD:
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Also, remember the tenet of SoD. Treat it as if our sources describe real life events. That's how we will dispose of a small amount of contradictory data there too. And this time, we are lucky. We are literally told (SoDwise), that what we see is not up to the usual standards. Usually, we just have to pick from the majority. If something has to get dismissed, guess who goes first. And if you want sneaky, you already threw away the time data inherent in the film whenever you claim any time manipulation anyway. Quote:
Also, Maximum Data Retention (search for those words). Quote:
For all we know, the battle was like the Gungan-TradeFed thing they did in The Phantom Menace, with the Belkans playing the Gungans |
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2008-03-17, 22:36 | Link #1015 | |||
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Here is the question. What actually constitutes environmental effects? You said that impacts and acceleration are generally not considered as environmental effects but that is only your interpretation which may or may not be correct. Also it also might invalidates Panzergeist as a field as well since it blocks magical shots which is also generally not considered an environmental effect as well if going by your interpretation. Despite the translation provided by you, (hope that you don't mind I remain slightly skeptical of your translations) Panzergeist is only described as an defense with the other translation using both field and barrier which really is inconsistent. |
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2008-03-17, 22:42 | Link #1016 | |
The Dang-meister
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The law dictates that the momentum from any one object, when transfered, that momentum is equally distributed when a collision occurs, meaning that nothing is lost. Another way of putting it is using the Conservation of Energy, where in an ideal situation, no energy is lost when something occurs, be it because of a force of a push, or a counter energy to bring the Net Energy to 0. @Ark: I'm assuming that this was general what you were getting at?
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2008-03-17, 22:57 | Link #1017 | |
Residential Nutcase
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2008-03-18, 00:54 | Link #1018 | |||||
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Tell you what. I'm still peer-reviewing your article, but I'll just throw out the following parts for you to chew on.
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This is really crappy design, though. For one thing, a bullet in this case will have a "piercing force". So it is not likely to stop a bullet. Isn't half the point of this whole discussion an effort on your side's part to find a way to stop a bullet with that BJ? And the design is nearly ineffective against the currently prevalent form of combat? What kind of designers are these morons? Further, hardness is important even against blunt trauma. Blunt and non-blunt is a continuum. Unless it is so "blunt" that the impact area is the entire shield area, where the mana particles of your barrier goes depends on how soft it is. If the barrier is hard, the particles will compress in place without major lateral displacment, and spread the load through low-displacement elastic strain effects. But the specification this time is for a simulated material soft beyond belief, like normal pressure air (not even compressed air), thus almost all impacts will cause those particles to displace laterally (literally get out of the way like they did with the place). The impact winds up hitting skin. If the area is wide enough that they don't displace laterally (say a full body impact), you are still screwed with this complex. The very softness and flexibility of this barrier means that it cannot significantly decelerate anything until the barrier is compressed extremely close to skin, when all of a sudden it forms a wall. Short version = your mage is saved from impact from the impactor, only to be smashed into a wall created by the compressed and now hardened barrier. Spreading out effects will be difficult to implement because of how soft the barrier is - for that softness (non-interference with movement) to be achieved, the bonds between mana particles must be weak to non-existent (think water or gas) - thus, the particles when compressed will act independently, and pressure area from impact stays the same - almost no protection at all. Quote:
1) Safety: We learn from StrikerS they don't always use barriers to keep people out (and maybe in Midchildra it plain doesn't work as well due to the higher proportion of low-rank mages). Just imagine one civvie, or even your own ally rushing in to save you in the wrong place, and getting annihilated by this uncontrolled, automatic wonder explosive reaction. I wish I'm a better drawer - this is 4koma material... 2) Utility: Thanks to the explosive reaction, the mage is saved from impact with concrete only to suffer impact with his jacket's explosion (reaction force) and since the barrier has blown up (and the jacket's cloth), there's nothing left to protect him from the effects. 3) Given that you've just said the BJ is "cloth" and we've already seen how a windblast from a bug can split one, how a mage can survive with an intact BJ "cloth" from your high energy, high velocity explosive reaction is unclear (remember, barrier's detonated). Of course, that's small potatoes compared to how she survived #2, but nevertheless something to consider. Frankly, even the "instant hardener" suddenly sounds good compared to this... Even 7Arcs understands that any BJ ERS (which there is, see the barrier jacket exploding in Ep2) must be low velocity and of limited power. |
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2008-03-18, 02:06 | Link #1019 | ||||||||||||
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Or in clearer words. BJ's are a defense, but they are not a combat rated defense. Unless someone seriously wants to say the Jacket is made to withstand Vita's hammering. There are some extra features in a jacket that add up and make useful combat level defenses, but only in certain situations. (Like the ERF Recoil we discuss further down.) Quote:
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Now, if we were discussing actual explosive reactive armor, I'd agree with you in a pico-second. But not with magic. When we hit a 'Well, how does THAT work then?" moment, that's when we have to look at it, find no possible solution, and go. "Magic does that shit." So far, I believe my latest incarnation shows the most plausable interactions with regular physics with the fewest handwavium points to date being expressly on the magic side of the arbitrary assignments. To summarize Handwavium areas - Barrier composition traits and construction qualities. (We can't argue that it's strictly a particle, or 'conventional' (4 forces) energy, or behaves like either one, since magic has been shown to manipulate both equally well. I'd avoid getting into particle physics past this point on it unless we want to slog through the untestable and end up in a mudfight throwing semantics at each other for kicks.) - ERF Recoil (We can't directly translate all portions of this effect either way without the exact qualities of the Barrier Jacket in the previous point. Thus, it works because it can.) No more argument from me in this topic tonight. Past this point I'll start getting 'stupid'. |
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2008-03-18, 05:41 | Link #1020 | |||||||||
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For that matter. This will make a nice attack. I kick Opponent 1 right into the ground next to Opponent 2. He blows up like a bomb and takes Opponent 2 with him... Quote:
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