Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Management means to say the right thing at the right time. You only say he shouldn't lie because you have no interest in freeing the 11s. Your idea of "honesty" being more important than helping the 11s is something that is practical only when you are some sort of deity, looking down on mortals.

Meh. The fact that he makes mayhem and then uses what he did wrong and twists it into some sort of rallying cry is just not a great thing to do no matter what excuses there are.

Morality isn't something you get marks for. You save those you can save, and if you can't save them you use them to improve chances of saving others.

He went there with all the intention of destroying the JLF when he told everyone they were there to help them.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

And they all pretty much deduced he was lying. Did it stop them? He could at least use their deaths as a symbol to give them all confidence.

The only person I see deducing he was lying was Deithard, and his ambitions are to follow Zero to the point of making him a god so he would go with anything he does anyway. I don't think anybody else truely deduced it at all.

[Dann of Thursday]

Ougi considered it, but in the end it didn't matter. Ougi is actually one of the few that seems to understand Lelouch to some degree.

There is no real right or wrong. If you want that, go watch SEED.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Meh. The fact that he makes mayhem and then uses what he did wrong and twists it into some sort of rallying cry is just not a great thing to do no matter what excuses there are.

I didn't say it was a great thing to do. But it was the only thing to do.

Those who run away just because they aren't willing to make the difficult choices, lack leadership. You do what you have to do, because doing nothing can often be much worse.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I didn't say it was a great thing to do. But it was the only thing to do.

Why is that? The Japanese Liberation Front was pretty competant. They could have EASILY taken them in and helped them escape.

[Dann of Thursday]

They were? They were weak and on their last legs. They were accomplishing nothing and taking innocent people hostage.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

They were? They were weak and on their last legs. They were accomplishing nothing and taking innocent people hostage.

Arg... I conceed that then... They did take people hostage... You happy for shattering my argument?

[Dann of Thursday]

Not really. I don't like people making either Lelouch or Suzaku to be a saint or villain. They are just in between.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Not really. I don't like people making either Lelouch or Suzaku to be a saint or villain. They are just in between.

I guess I understand the feeling. But yeah, this discussion actually helped me. I may be caught up with the anime, but I am still techincally a n00b. Now I am looking at things a little differently than I first did. Still not a huge fan of the way Lelouch treats people or situations though...

[Dann of Thursday]

No one said you had to be.

[Kaze]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I guess I understand the feeling. But yeah, this discussion actually helped me. I may be caught up with the anime, but I am still techincally a n00b. Now I am looking at things a little differently than I first did. Still not a huge fan of the way Lelouch treats people or situations though...

Everyone watches the show in his own way, you can have your own favorite character, nobody is telling you to like any of them

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Not really. I don't like people making either Lelouch or Suzaku to be a saint or villain. They are just in between.

Very true, and that's what makes the series interesting. Yet while neither of them is completely right or wrong, a lot of people here are a bit too forgiving towards Lelouch compared to the treatment Suzaku gets. So I can understand why one would feel the need to try and balance things a little by reminding his fanboys than he is very much not perfect, and that admitting he's not does not make him perfect either.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

They were? They were weak and on their last legs. They were accomplishing nothing and taking innocent people hostage.

No actually that was a renegade group that wanted to take things into their own hands.

The ones Lelouch killed(sacificed) were renmants looking to link up with the Order, wait for Toudo, or make a run for China.

Eitherway, as Ougi noted, Zero is the only thing that can help them stand up against Britannia. No one else is competent enough for the job so even if they are being manipulated/pawned(Which they noted), they'll follow him.

Besides aren't leaders suppose to be the ones making ugly decisions and who gets to die or live? Ignorance is bliss at times and I'm sure Toudo knows that.

[m1thril]

quick question...is lelouch just using nunally as an excuse to rebel against charles or is he still trying to protect her? e.g. when nunally owns him twice with her 'save me, suzaku' and the 2nd SAZ it just seems that lelouch conveniently finds another reason to continue his rebellion. if he's trying to protect her still, why does he state that his fight is no longer about her?

[Dream_Traveller]

Nah, he said that, after his little revelation in episode 7, that his fight was no longer only about her, with Lelouch taking his friends and the wishes of the Japanese people into consideration.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Management means to say the right thing at the right time. You only say he shouldn't lie because you have no interest in freeing the 11s. Your idea of "honesty" being more important than helping the 11s is something that is practical only when you are some sort of deity, looking down on mortals.

Of course, Zero has no intention of telling anyone, even his highest lieutenants who have proven to be faithful and able to keep a secret have been kept in the dark. His role in the Euphie tragedy will be one taken to the grave, not because it is the right thing but because it is the convenient thing.

There is a fundamental difference between leaders and managers. Managers run processes, and leaders lead men. And part of leading is that, if and when you can, you tell your men not only what to do but why they should do it. A bad leader says "dig here" or "shoot there." A good leader will say "dig here to set a trap that will save you later," or "shoot there, because that will be where the enemy will break through," because a good leader knows that his men and women will work harder and better when they know what they are working for.

For all of Zero's charisma and tactical brilliance, he isn't that good of a leader. Zero's legitimacy as leader is now only based on one thing: results. Compared to what he had before the Black Rebellion, and what he has after, he really lost a lot of legitimacy.

What Lulu said was for the best for everyone. Nothing else he said would have made any sense.

What Lulu said was best for himself. It almost got everyone on both sides killed, however, thanks to Nina's baby nuke.

How does the number of times he does it matter?
Are you keeping score?

Once can be an exception or a mistake. A steady repetition is proof of a bad habit.

Morality isn't something you get marks for. You save those you can save, and if you can't save them you use them to improve chances of saving others.

No, morality is something you get marks for. It deepens the loyalty of those who would otherwise only be in a business relationship, it gives you political leverage, and boosts public support. Lelouch has been playing the morality card from the start.

Look, the Black Knights! Opposer of all who abuse their power, benefactors of the downtrodden, honest!

And whatabout that Zero, eh? Loyal to his friends and comrads. You can trust Zero.

Lelouch has sculpted an entire persona around having the moral highground.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Why is that? The Japanese Liberation Front was pretty competant. They could have EASILY taken them in and helped them escape.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

They were? They were weak and on their last legs. They were accomplishing nothing and taking innocent people hostage.

They had survived fighting against Britannia for years. They were in line to role out their own knightmares. Just a few episodes earlier, there had been speculation that the JLF would absorb the Black Knights, not the other way around.

And, of course, the hostage incident was the action of a rogue faction without prior approval, hence why we had the scene of the JLF headquarters being so surprised.

[m1thril]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And whatabout that Zero, eh? Loyal to his friends and comrads. You can trust Zero.

not after season 1 :]

i wonder what would happen if another save either the order or nunally situation occurred

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Of course, Zero has no intention of telling anyone, even his highest lieutenants who have proven to be faithful and able to keep a secret have been kept in the dark. His role in the Euphie tragedy will be one taken to the grave, not because it is the right thing but because it is the convenient thing.

There is a fundamental difference between leaders and managers. Managers run processes, and leaders lead men. And part of leading is that, if and when you can, you tell your men not only what to do but why they should do it. A bad leader says "dig here" or "shoot there." A good leader will say "dig here to set a trap that will save you later," or "shoot there, because that will be where the enemy will break through," because a good leader knows that his men and women will work harder and better when they know what they are working for.

For all of Zero's charisma and tactical brilliance, he isn't that good of a leader. Zero's legitimacy as leader is now only based on one thing: results. Compared to what he had before the Black Rebellion, and what he has after, he really lost a lot of legitimacy.
What Lulu said was best for himself. It almost got everyone on both sides killed, however, thanks to Nina's baby nuke.


Once can be an exception or a mistake. A steady repetition is proof of a bad habit.
No, morality is something you get marks for. It deepens the loyalty of those who would otherwise only be in a business relationship, it gives you political leverage, and boosts public support. Lelouch has been playing the morality card from the start.

Look, the Black Knights! Opposer of all who abuse their power, benefactors of the downtrodden, honest!

And whatabout that Zero, eh? Loyal to his friends and comrads. You can trust Zero.

Lelouch has sculpted an entire persona around having the moral highground.



They had survived fighting against Britannia for years. They were in line to role out their own knightmares. Just a few episodes earlier, there had been speculation that the JLF would absorb the Black Knights, not the other way around.

And, of course, the hostage incident was the action of a rogue faction without prior approval, hence why we had the scene of the JLF headquarters being so surprised.

Took the words right out of my mouth Zeros now only has support cause of results he brings then again the japanese would probably serve anyone who can help them which how desperate they are

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

There is a fundamental difference between leaders and managers. Managers run processes, and leaders lead men. And part of leading is that, if and when you can, you tell your men not only what to do but why they should do it. A bad leader says "dig here" or "shoot there." A good leader will say "dig here to set a trap that will save you later," or "shoot there, because that will be where the enemy will break through," because a good leader knows that his men and women will work harder and better when they know what they are working for.

...is it?

Leadership is complicated. Very complicated. I think you'll find that many a "great" leader in the history of the world have very different behaviors from what you suggest. I won't claim to know what it means to be a great leader, or I'll have been a leader myself by now -- but I think it's also dubious if you say that you know what a leader should do yourself.

The show constantly pounds on the fact that Zero's leadership style is based primarily on results. He creates miracles, and the public deifies him: Zero's actions allowed for victories in the past = Zero's actions bring victory = Zero is commanding us now to do this action = this action will bring victory = let's do it even if we die. We can of course argue on whether that is effective or not, but to say that the opposite is definitely good leadership is something I cannot accept at face value. It might seem logical -- they know what their actions will achieve = they'll do it -- but humans are hardly logical creatures; and the characters of Code Geass has in fact displayed an even less logical nature compared to ordinary people in real life, so yeah.

[m1thril]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

...is it?

Leadership is complicated. Very complicated. I think you'll find that many a "great" leader in the history of the world have very different behaviors from what you suggest. I won't claim to know what it means to be a great leader, or I'll have been a leader myself by now -- but I think it's also dubious if you say that you know what a leader should do yourself.

The show constantly pounds on the fact that Zero's leadership style is based primarily on results. He creates miracles, and the public deifies him: Zero's actions allowed for victories in the past = Zero's actions bring victory = Zero is commanding us now to do this action = this action will bring victory = let's do it even if we die. We can of course argue on whether that is effective or not, but to say that the opposite is definitely good leadership is something I cannot accept at face value. It might seem logical -- they know what their actions will achieve = they'll do it -- but humans are hardly logical creatures; and the characters of Code Geass has in fact displayed an even less logical nature compared to ordinary people in real life, so yeah.

i think what dean is saying is that explaining your actions whenever you can is part of being a leader (which i agree since doing this will make things more efficient). He then elaborates on this point by giving examples of the two extremes. Of course, doing this part does not mean you're necessarily a good leader, but ignoring this part means that you are not as great as a leader as you can be. Though LL is a good leader (produces results with minimal casualties), he isn't great as he can improve on many things.

[Dann of Thursday]

He's an 18 year old kid. We can't expect him to be perfect.