Magic and Technology of MGLN

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

Hi guys sorry to interrupt, but a group of us (me, Lowegear, AdmiralTigerclaw, WildGoose, Jimmy_C, LimitedEternal, ghazghkull) were discussing about barrier jackets. We came up with something like this and would like for you guys you see if what we think can be correct.

Barrier Jackets - A theory

1. BJ defends from kinetic impact
2. BJ does so via bleeding the energy into the atmosphere, dispersing the energy (incidentally producing those cool clothing flapping scenes when mages block shots)
3. BJ primary defense against Kinetic Impacts is the default Field which is set to anti-kinetic
4. Thus, as BJ is set to protect against hi-energy kinetic impacts, beams travel slower so as to not have to deal with the kinetic protection
5. Kinetic protection is kept on the BJs due to risk of falling/being thrown really freakin' fast
6. Similarly, BJs protect against bullet penetration by bleeding all that kinetic energy into the atmosphere, thus leaving no penetration (The impact will still be painful though)
7. This explains also why melee works against mages. And it may be the reason why the ban on conventional weapons is successful.

In summary, the faster the attack, the more the BJ protects and the slower the attack, the less the BJ protects.

What do you guys think?

I can buy the idea that they protect against bullet penetration, but is somewhat marginal since as far as can be seen, BJs are pretty darn soft (clothing like) things that even the wind can sometimes ripple. If they are made of a material with high tensile strength despite the apparent softness, then they can prevent outright penetration, but a soft material cannot provide enough deceleration in the short distance to stop the bullet ("bleed" all KE), so the bullet still touches skin along with the clothing and may even penetrate part way until the clothing can finally apply enough deceleration. Worse, the softness of the BJ favors the bullet - it does not deform (taking the KE with it as strain energy) as it will against a hard surface - the clothing and skin does all the deforming.

Overall, it is more believable to mumble that they use Panzergeist to defend against bullets. That, at least, is hard, and even Signum freezes when using it.

As for the idea that the BJ will somehow be more protective against a high velocity attack, well, that is pretty hard to buy. Whatever the mechanism, sheer velocity, all other factors being equal, will force the dispersing system (with no clear mechanism mentioned) to disperse more KE and give it a shorter period of time to do it in.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I can buy the idea that they protect against bullet penetration, but is somewhat marginal since as far as can be seen, BJs are pretty darn soft (clothing like) things that even the wind can sometimes ripple. If they are made of a material with high tensile strength despite the apparent softness, then they can prevent outright penetration, but a soft material cannot provide enough deceleration in the short distance to stop the bullet ("bleed" all KE), so the bullet still touches skin along with the clothing and may even penetrate part way until the clothing can finally apply enough deceleration. Worse, the softness of the BJ favors the bullet - it does not deform (taking the KE with it as strain energy) as it will against a hard surface - the clothing and skin does all the deforming.

Overall, it is more believable to mumble that they use Panzergeist to defend against bullets. That, at least, is hard, and even Signum freezes when using it.

As for the idea that the BJ will somehow be more protective against a high velocity attack, well, that is pretty hard to buy. Whatever the mechanism, sheer velocity, all other factors being equal, will force the dispersing system (with no clear mechanism mentioned) to disperse more KE and give it a shorter period of time to do it in.

Think water. Move your hand slowly and it yields; slap it harder and your hand would hurt. Possibly replicates this effect, or even just hardens momentarily upon impact? It's a magic material after all.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kha

Think water. Move your hand slowly and it yields; slap it harder and your hand would hurt. Possibly replicates this effect, or even just hardens momentarily upon impact? It's a magic material after all.

I knew that this "water analogy" would come up. I've actually considered it myself.

However, that's not quite the same thing. The water actually still puts up resistance - it is just that your velocity is slower so you don't feel it as hard. If it is high velocity, the forces acting on your hand is harder so it starts to hurt, but if you ignore the pain, you should still reach out further down than you would if the velocity is slower, all else being equal (its hard to do it with a hand because when you are moving it down, you concurrently apply force even if you try not to).

As for hardening momentarily upon impact. The best way to get past a hard material is still a tougher penetrator and a high velocity. Unless it has a gate velocity during which it does not harden. That could work, except then the Gate is set all wrong. 60m/s is still ~200km/h, and 16m/s will still be ~50. Do you really want your BJ to not protect you against things of that velocity range coming at you.

[PhoenixG]

About the water analogy, You forget about the surface impact. A large surface gives more resistant than small surface. If the object is small it will penetrate deeper than an big object that travel at the same speed.

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

In summary, the faster the attack, the more the BJ protects and the slower the attack, the less the BJ protects.

The size of the attack also matter.

(From IRC)
Nanoha falls through concrete (thanks to eisen) -> little damage on BJ.
Eisen hit Nanoha's BJ -> destroys outer layer of BJ.

The energy that hit Nanoha's BJ is about the same, so size of the attack matters.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by PhoenixG

Eisen hit Nanoha's BJ -> destroys outer layer of BJ.

I thought that was the Reactor Purge running. But indeed, you are correct that area of attack matters too, but that's something that favors conventional weapons. Divine Buster is a literal shotgun blast. Not to mention of course hydrodynamics - just change from sticking your palm flat to sticking it into the water vertically, and penetrating becomes much easier.

[PhoenixG]

Well I'm leaning that BJ is unable to protect against conventional weapons.

[Nightengale]

Depending on what factor we're talking about, it doesn't make sense for BJs to not have protection against conventional weapons, considering stuff like sudden G-forces are heavily dampened by BJs, clearly.

I'm almost wondering if BJs have any dampening effect on things like extremely loud sound or something. Being in the constant presence of explosions and probably strong lights doesn't seem to have any degree of effect on mages.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I can buy the idea that they protect against bullet penetration, but is somewhat marginal since as far as can be seen, BJs are pretty darn soft (clothing like) things that even the wind can sometimes ripple. If they are made of a material with high tensile strength despite the apparent softness, then they can prevent outright penetration, but a soft material cannot provide enough deceleration in the short distance to stop the bullet ("bleed" all KE), so the bullet still touches skin along with the clothing and may even penetrate part way until the clothing can finally apply enough deceleration. Worse, the softness of the BJ favors the bullet - it does not deform (taking the KE with it as strain energy) as it will against a hard surface - the clothing and skin does all the deforming.

Overall, it is more believable to mumble that they use Panzergeist to defend against bullets. That, at least, is hard, and even Signum freezes when using it.

As for the idea that the BJ will somehow be more protective against a high velocity attack, well, that is pretty hard to buy. Whatever the mechanism, sheer velocity, all other factors being equal, will force the dispersing system (with no clear mechanism mentioned) to disperse more KE and give it a shorter period of time to do it in.

...we're not talking about the fabric. Please reread point 3. "BJ primary defense against Kinetic Impacts is the default Field which is set to anti-kinetic."

I want to point out that the Barrier Jacket, as stated by Rein in A's to StrikerS, consists of 2 main forms of magical defense: a Barrier and a Field. The Barrier is the smaller scale version of a full on protective barrier. The Field, as explained by Rein, can be set to specifically be anti-condition, such as anti-cold (that being the example she used.) Thus, to expand in fuller form of the theory:

The Barrier Jacket is the last-ditch defense of a mage against attack/falling. The Field is set to dampen the effects of kinetic impact (note that they way Rein explains the Field, is that it has a dampening effect on the conditions it's set against), spreading out the impact across the mage's body and bleeding the energy away into the atmosphere.

We're not referring to the fabric of the BJ at all. We're talking about the Field that is part of the BJ's defenses.

EDIT: To follow on to Nighty, the current theory is that the Barrier Jacket's protections are from two sources: Barrier and Field, as stated by Rein in A's to StrikerS. The Barrier serves to protect against beamfire and probably winds etc. The Field is probably set to protect against environmental/element threats, such as cold (Rein's example), and possibly loud noises, impact, etc. This is the theory we're discussing.

The 4 types of defence are Barrier, Shield, Field and Physical Shield. Rein makes no mention of the Barrier Jacket's fabric having Physical Shield properties, only mentioning that it uses a combo of Barrier and Field.

Furthermore, mentions of Panzergeist vs Knight Armor/Barrier Jacket are apples & oranges. The Barrier Jacket is the last ditch defense. It's like wearing a "bulletproof" vest. The Barrier and Shield spells and Panzergeist are like summoning tank armor to protect you. Totally different things. Note that Fate took one helluva fall in A's and yet is alright, while nobody would dream of tanking beamfire without at least a Shield.

Also, "beams travel slower" is meant relatively in comparison to rifle rounds. And I recall a huge amount of arguing on rifle rounds being faster than beams, and it being decided that beams were faster.

Also, Ark, I would like to point out that 100meters cannot possibly be the max range of beam attacks as Vice was sniping the ball Drones on the Cradle and that was too far to be 300 feet. I've paced it out and measured with own eyes how large human targets appear at 300 feet.

EDIT: Dispersing system: Magic.

There's a reason this show is called Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Depending on what factor we're talking about, it doesn't make sense for BJs to not have protection against conventional weapons, considering stuff like sudden G-forces are heavily dampened by BJs, clearly.

They do protect to some extent. But a bashing is generally a wide area blunt (thus non-aerodynamic) attack equivalent.

I'm almost wondering if BJs have any dampening effect on things like extremely loud sound or something. Being in the constant presence of explosions and probably strong lights doesn't seem to have any degree of effect on mages.

Ep7 A's suggests No. Or at least it doesn' t suppress things nearly enough. Tricks like Eisenguel would have no meaning if the standard defense can attenuate them to the point that their suppressive effect is lost. This, I'm sure, is something that would hold even to someone from the Literary POV.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Ep7 A's suggests No. Or at least it doesn' t suppress things nearly enough. Tricks like Eisenguel would have no meaning if the standard defense can attenuate them to the point that their suppressive effect is lost. This, I'm sure, is something that would hold even to someone from the Literary POV.

I think it probably is similar to earplugs and flashbangs. The bang may be somewhat muted but still painful, and bright light can be physically painful; don't ask me how it is, I can only speak from personal experience of bright lights (and getting yelled at for shining a spotlight into someone's eyes).

Eisengehaul is a magical flashbang on an uber scale, I have no problems with it.

EDIT: Another ignored post? C'mon, surely you can find something to reply to the theory of how Fields protect from Kinetic impact.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

...we're not talking about the fabric. Please reread point 3. "BJ primary defense against Kinetic Impacts is the default Field which is set to anti-kinetic."

I read it. However, even in Reactor Purge, it isn't the barrier / field that blows, it is the fabric (and we are using that term metamorphically). This suggests the fabric and the defensive barrier / field complex are one, with the "fabric" being the visible portion.

I want to point out that the Barrier Jacket, as stated by Rein in A's to StrikerS, consists of 2 main forms of magical defense: a Barrier and a Field.

Actually, Nanoha said all of this, but never mind...

And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object.

If anything, it'll be the barrier's "gentle-stop" function that provides the canonical anti-shock protection.

Further, despite several paragraphs, you still had not gotten to within a lightyear of my main objection. Call it a field, call it a barrier, but why will it be more effective in attenuating high velocity than low.

Also, "beams travel slower" is meant relatively in comparison to rifle rounds. And I recall a huge amount of arguing on rifle rounds being faster than beams, and it being decided that beams were faster.

In other words, it means conventional weaponry. By the way, objective measurement suggests that MGLN beams, unfortunately, are not faster during their transit phases. Why do you think the weeping went on for so long.

Also, Ark, I would like to point out that 100meters cannot possibly be the max range of beam attacks as Vice was sniping the ball Drones on the Cradle and that was too far to be 300 feet. I've paced it out and measured with own eyes how large human targets appear at 300 feet.

Wow, how did this total red herring get in here. In any case, I should hope Vice can shoot over 100 (heck, he should shoot over 600) - he's a sniper and he actually has a stock and scope.

[arkhangelsk]

... you guys have been on IRC too long. With posts, even a 24-72 hour delay is not really running.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

I think it probably is similar to earplugs and flashbangs. The bang may be somewhat muted but still painful, and bright light can be physically painful; don't ask me how it is, I can only speak from personal experience of bright lights (and getting yelled at for shining a spotlight into someone's eyes).

That's why I'm only willing to go as far as they don't suppress nearly enough. Another problem with them a strong noise attenuation is that they will attenuate all noise, including voices (like a earplug), yet they have little trouble talking to each other.

[Wild Goose]

Will reply more in-depth tomorrow, quick glossy reply before i sleep. Ah, waking up at 5 am...

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I read it. However, even in Reactor Purge, it isn't the barrier / field that blows, it is the fabric (and we are using that term metamorphically). This suggests the fabric and the defensive barrier / field complex are one, with the "fabric" being the visible portion.

...regards Reactor Purge, Keroko and TK had a hugeass argument over it; can't remember the specifics on whether the fabric is converted into mana or whatsits.

Actually, Nanoha said all of this, but never mind...

And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object.

If anything, it'll be the barrier's "gentle-stop" function that provides the canonical anti-shock protection.

Further, despite several paragraphs, you still had not gotten to within a lightyear of my main objection. Call it a field, call it a barrier, but why will it be more effective in attenuating high velocity than low.

Actually we're trying to hash out WHY it will be better. I'm playing advocate for the Field theory. I personally think it's the Barrier that does it, but I want to hash out and see if the field is a possibility.

There's a reason we called it a theory and called for discussion.

In other words, it means conventional weaponry. By the way, objective measurement suggests that MGLN beams, unfortunately, are not faster during their transit phases. Why do you think the weeping went on for so long.

This was a typo; I intended to type "rifle rounds" and mistyped beams.

Wow, how did this total red herring get in here. In any case, I should hope Vice can shoot over 100 (heck, he should shoot over 600) - he's a sniper and he actually has a stock and scope.

I have Asperger's. Most of the symptoms, anyway. This was totally random and i wanted to put it in because i figured might as well since i was posting.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

... you guys have been on IRC too long. With posts, even a 24-72 hour delay is not really running.

Actually, it's only since Friday for us Azns that Outer Cadia went to IRC; but even before then, OC moves a helluva lotta faster than the other threads on Animesuki, it seems.

[PhoenixG]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object.

Stop is a bit strong word. It's more reduce the effect. If it's able to stop the effect one can even swim in lava without feeling the heat for example. -.-

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

...regards Reactor Purge, Keroko and TK had a hugeass argument over it; can't remember the specifics on whether the fabric is converted into mana or whatsits.

Well, Tk and I don't always agree on everything either (he's a much bigger fan of the subspace bag than I am), so even if he has a conclusion, it is not impossible I may have another.

There's a reason we called it a theory and called for discussion.

When tshouryuu posted it up, it sounded like almost a done deal that you guys already finished hashing out on IRC and just wanted to see what "The Big Pessimistic Rock" (me) had to say since I don't go to IRC

[SpaceBrotha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object.

and why is that? if the field is set to resist cold, it merely is stopping energy from transferring between the user and the environment, hence providing safety from cold...
why not merely adjust the field to resist objects from outside from moving to the inside, effectively creating a dampening field... and the rapid slowing would wreck havoc to just about anything that enters the field.

Further, despite several paragraphs, you still had not gotten to within a lightyear of my main objection. Call it a field, call it a barrier, but why will it be more effective in attenuating high velocity than low.

Then mind telling me why water stops a higher velocity bullet far more effectively than a slower moving bullet?
AFAIK, it was because the bullet cannot take the forces that affect it upon entering water, and breaking apart, thus lessening the amount of force (and hence distance) needed to fully bring it to a halt...
...and since the water resists harder when the bullet enters with a greater velocity, the bullet breaks down faster if it has a greater velocity.
And the entire field is part of the BJ provided by an intelligent device, which seem to have rather good sensory capabilities (bardiche noting suzuka and arisa when they were still rather far away, and out of LoS) so the field would be adjusted to dampen the bullet by the time it was shot, thanks to the AI in the device.

In other words, it means conventional weaponry. By the way, objective measurement suggests that MGLN beams, unfortunately, are not faster during their transit phases. Why do you think the weeping went on for so long.

Actually the speed seems to vary quite a lot, from vices sniper rifle and nanoha divine bustering vita being good examples of seemingly near instantaneous travel of the beam, while some of the 'regular' beam attacks are slow enough to be dodged...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wow, how did this total red herring get in here. In any case, I should hope Vice can shoot over 100 (heck, he should shoot over 600) - he's a sniper and he actually has a stock and scope.

And why should that increase range? Accuracy, yes, but range?

Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha

Actually the speed seems to vary quite a lot, from vices sniper rifle and nanoha divine bustering vita being good examples of seemingly near instantaneous travel of the beam, while some of the 'regular' beam attacks are slow enough to be dodged...

Hence why we have the entire 'what do the creators intent VS what do we see' debate. It is obvious that simply observing is not an accurate measure of deciding that magic is faster or slower then normal projectiles. Judging by Vice and Nanoha, we can assume that magic can travel at similar speeds, but the action is merely slowed for dramatic effect.

[Nightengale]

I think debating on the 'range' thing just because Vice has something shaped like a proper weapon is kinda moot. Canonically, Vice is a out-range specialist to the point that despite he's good enough to be called an Ace however limited he is, so that kind of range should be no problem to him.

Since Teana, if I recall, was closer to an all-rounder round of shooter with her last limiter allowing her attack range to be greatly increased, it's doubtful that it's as far as Vice's maximum range.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hence why we have the entire 'what do the creators intent VS what do we see' debate. It is obvious that simply observing is not an accurate measure of deciding that magic is faster or slower then normal projectiles. Judging by Vice and Nanoha, we can assume that magic can travel at similar speeds, but the action is merely slowed for dramatic effect.

There's also different types of magic as well, from homing ones to ones quoted 'high velocity.'

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I read it. However, even in Reactor Purge, it isn't the barrier / field that blows, it is the fabric (and we are using that term metamorphically). This suggests the fabric and the defensive barrier / field complex are one, with the "fabric" being the visible portion.

One question why are you talking about barrier purge when we're talking about the fields? I don't really get this.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, Nanoha said all of this, but never mind...

And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object.

If anything, it'll be the barrier's "gentle-stop" function that provides the canonical anti-shock protection.

Further, despite several paragraphs, you still had not gotten to within a lightyear of my main objection. Call it a field, call it a barrier, but why will it be more effective in attenuating high velocity than low.

We don't know exactly. That's why the theory was posted. To see if what I posted with help from the rest could actually be the reason. I mentioned it.

The barrier jacket protects in proportion to the amount of kinetic energy applied behind an attack/impact.

Exactly how it does this is unknown. We think that the field of a BJ bleeds the kinetic energy into the atmosphere. Or It maybe like what SpaceBrotha mention, the field acts like how water stops a higher velocity bullet far more effectively than a slower moving bullet.

Personally I'm asking could this theory hold any water at all. Its a theory. Its not like we have a mage to test this out on or a barrier jacket to break down to see how it works.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha

and why is that? if the field is set to resist cold, it merely is stopping energy from transferring between the user and the environment, hence providing safety from cold...
why not merely adjust the field to resist objects from outside from moving to the inside, effectively creating a dampening field... and the rapid slowing would wreck havoc to just about anything that enters the field.

Wouldn't that usually be called a shield. Stopping cold and gases is a matter of stopping low velocity objects (in atmosphere, cold and heat is mostly transmitted by conduction and convection, both relatively low velocity), as opposed to stopping something capable of crossing the field space in a fraction of a second.

AFAIK, it was because the bullet cannot take the forces that affect it upon entering water, and breaking apart, thus lessening the amount of force (and hence distance) needed to fully bring it to a halt...

Actually, the force to stop it would have been the same. When the bullet breaks up, the area of the bullet's frontal cross section effectively increases, so it reduces the pressure. And even then, the bullets took up to 90cm to break. A Barrier Jacket will be lucky to have nine centimeters to work with, so the bullet is far less likely to break before hitting skin with its higher KE.

...and since the water resists harder when the bullet enters with a greater velocity, the bullet breaks down faster if it has a greater velocity.

Most people will resolve breakup problems by toughening the shell of the round, such as using steel rather than using soft lead, rather than reducing velocity.

And the entire field is part of the BJ provided by an intelligent device, which seem to have rather good sensory capabilities (bardiche noting suzuka and arisa when they were still rather far away, and out of LoS) so the field would be adjusted to dampen the bullet by the time it was shot, thanks to the AI in the device.

ROFTLMAO. Arisa and Suzuka were enormously easy detections in the kekkai. They were pretty much the only two unidentified lifeforms, which means Bardiche picked them up out of a noise level of roughly zero. How that translates to picking up tiny supersonic bullets is difficult to imagine.

Actually the speed seems to vary quite a lot, from vices sniper rifle and nanoha divine bustering vita being good examples of seemingly near instantaneous travel of the beam, while some of the 'regular' beam attacks are slow enough to be dodged...

Actually, Nanoha DBing Vita is one of the slower examples of high powered beam speed - so many seconds elapsed that it was rated at only 16m/s. Vice's sniper rifle had a more decent velocity though.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And why should that increase range? Accuracy, yes, but range?

Effective Range is partially a function of accuracy. Bullet velocity being another factor.

Hence why we have the entire 'what do the creators intent VS what do we see' debate. It is obvious that simply observing is not an accurate measure of deciding that magic is faster or slower then normal projectiles. Judging by Vice and Nanoha, we can assume that magic can travel at similar speeds, but the action is merely slowed for dramatic effect.

Creator's intent is almost useless, especially in situations where they hadn't thought about it. Even if you catch them in an interview and they quick-wit up a semi-usable answer, it is very doubtful that's what they thought when they made it. So what is canon, is it their intention as they drew the slides or their retroactive thoughts during a post-production interview? Endless debates here alone for no result.

Obviously, what happened is that some rounds do travel faster than others, but it will be a rare one indeed that even has the speed of a pistol bullet.

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

One question why are you talking about barrier purge when we're talking about the fields? I don't really get this.

The point is how integrated the whole BJ system is.

Exactly how it does this is unknown. We think that the field of a BJ bleeds the kinetic energy into the atmosphere. Or It maybe like what SpaceBrotha mention, the field acts like how water stops a higher velocity bullet far more effectively than a slower moving bullet.

As a general defense system, a defense method counting on convenient target characteristics is extremely iffy. When they tested the bullet on water thing on Mythbusters, they were using lead bullets, which are soft and thus easier to deform. Change it with a tough material like AP-steel and that effect goes.

Yes, a higher KE incident means more energy that can potentially go into deforming the bullet. However, which side takes most of the KE damage greatly depends on which side is stronger, and since a BJ defensive complex, to all presentations is relatively soft and flexible, it won't be winning many such fights.