Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[White Manju Bun]

OK now Im confused!! Up til now I was under the impression that Lelouch just wanted to bring down Britannia but not rule his own country, most of the thread dealt with the impression of him turning it over to Suzaku and Yuffie (if that happens) but now with the end of epi 7 he says "My army, my country" sooooooooooooo Im kinda lost now.

[cf18]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that. That's why true communiusm will never work.

And that's also why most monarchs at best reach it's prime in the first few generations and becomes weak afterward, and then cycle to the next peasant leader or invader. The whole nobel and power-inheritance system is to protect the ruling class from competition. It's laughable that the Britannia emperor is the 98th one - it can only happen in fiction.

And about Suzaku - well to his own people he is a collaborator, and he has no idea what he is really trying to do. He sure didn't plan to have a sympathetic princess falling into his arms. What if Cornelia order him to kill some innocent "11"s in another ghetto? Neither Euphemia or his watch can protect him from a Gloucester's lance.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by cf18

And that's also why most monarchs at best reach it's prime in the first few generations and becomes weak afterward, and then cycle to the next peasant leader or invader. The whole nobel and power-inheritance system is to protect the ruling class from competition. It's laughable that the Britannia emperor is the 98th one - it can only happen in fiction.

THe bloodline only becomes weak when there is no threat to it. If every emperor had to fight his/her siblings for the throne then the Emperor is the strongest and bloodline would not become weak. Basically if Yuuie becomes the new empress and abolish the survival of the fittest system, Her bloodline won't last 5 generation.

A perfect example of this in anime would be the The legend of Galactic Heros. The decay of the goldenbum royal family and the high nobles and the raise of the Reinheart and his low level nobles.

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

THe bloodline only becomes weak when there is no threat to it. If every emperor had to fight his/her siblings for the throne then the Emperor is the strongest and bloodline would not become weak.

Well, that is until the problems of royal inbreeding start to surface...

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Jewelray

Well, that is until the problems of royal inbreeding start to surface...

Considering the current emperor had 17+ kids form several different wives. I am pretty sure this would not be a problem.

[cf18]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

THe bloodline only becomes weak when there is no threat to it. If every emperor had to fight his/her siblings for the throne then the Emperor is the strongest and bloodline would not become weak. Basically if Yuuie becomes the new empress and abolish the survival of the fittest system, Her bloodline won't last 5 generation.

But in real life the survival of the fittest system will not last three generations, because the empire itself will be quickly weaken by constant in-fighting or civil war. In Chinese history that kind of in-fighting between prince usually occurs between the second generations, because many of them are generals of rebels leaded by their father. If things don't settle down after the 2nd emperor , that dynasty will not last.

Say what if the Britannia emperor suddenly dies and Schneizel the 2nd Prince claim the throne. Do you expect Cornelia to just bow or lead her loyal knights for some Knightmare vs Knightmare action? Britannia will be torn apart. Well that may be exactly what Lelouch wants.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by cf18

But in real life the survival of the fittest system will not last three generations, because the empire itself will be quickly weaken by constant in-fighting or civil war. In Chinese history that kind of in-fighting between prince usually occurs between the second generations, because many of them are generals of rebels leaded by their father. If things don't settle down after the 2nd emperor , that dynasty will not last.

Say what if the Britannia emperor suddenly dies and Schneizel the 2nd Prince claim the throne. Do you expect Cornelia to just bow or lead her loyal knights for some Knightmare vs Knightmare action? Britannia will be torn apart. Well that may be exactly what Lelouch wants.

If it was a all out civil war then your are right but the kind of fights i am thinking of has more to do with what happen in the Tang Dynast when the Tang prince trap his brother in the gate to the imperial palace and kill them both and later force his father into retirement. There is also the Ching Dynasty where the imperial succession has a large number of causalties but never a open civil war. It was all done in the shadows with poison and a knief in the dark.

As for Scheizel, if somehting like that happen I would expect him to keep news of his father death a secret for long a spossible and int he mean time take out as many of his brother and sister that he feels is a threat ASAP. He would consolidate his power in the palace/capital and military ASAP.

[Kai Yukari]

Suzaku is an idealist.
Lelouch is a realist.

Lelouch is powered by his revenge. He doesn't want peace, he just wants the destruction of Brittania and to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

Suzaku is the epitome of righteousness. He wants peace and he will fulfill this purpose by his principles even if it means he'll have a hard time with it.

Personally, I like Suzaku's ideal (EDIT: not anymore) but it looks like Lelouch's the one who is making more progress. But what kind of end are we taking about here? destruction or peace?

[CronuZ]

Originally Posted by Kai Yukari

lelouch`s powered by his revenge. he doesn't want peace, he just wants the destructon of brittania. to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

I agree Lulu do want revenge on the royal family, but then again I doubt hes gonna destroy Brittania for the sake of his personal grudge. Coz at the same time, He also wanna change the world for his sister so the weak like his sister, can live together as well. And, I can't imagine Lulu killing Euphemia after the end of episode 8. He himself said he is Righteous and Kuro no Kishidan will punish those ppl who killed others, even though they have no weapons.

Looks like his next target probably planning on killing Cornelia How on earth Cornelia change so drastically, SHES SOOOOOO MOE WHEN SHE IS YOUNG

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kai Yukari

suzaku`s an idealist.
lelouch `s a realist.

lelouch`s powered by his revenge. he doesn't want peace, he just wants the destructon of brittania. to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

suzaku is the epitomy of righteousness. he wants peace. he will fulfill this purpose by his principles even if it means he'll have a hard time w/ it.

personally, i like suzaku's ideal but it looks like lelouch's the one who is making more progress.

but what kind of end are we taking about here? destruction or peace?

Exactly. There is a fundamental issue in comparing these two character's actions, because their goals are actually not identical. There is no way Suzaku would be willing to start a war in order to free Japan, because hundreds of thousands will die that way and there even is no guarantee Japan would be free at the end of it.
Suzuka wants peace and harmony, but wishes to follow the law.

On the other hand, Lelouch wants Britannia to crash and burn. The assumption (quite correctly) is that when an empire crashes and burns, there would be millions killed. That's already put in to consideration as far as Lelouch is concerned, and is dismissed as a trivial matter.
Call me cynical, but so far I haven't believed a word Lelouch said as Zero to the cameras. It's all public relations. He wants to defend the weak, but the only weak person he is interested in protecting is his sister. Everyone else is disposable.

As an example, in episode 8...

Spoiler:

Lelouch blew up the building at the end for political reasons. He wants the TV audience to believe...

1. The Japanese terrorists are mad and can't be trusted. It was true before, but even more so now.
(People didn't know Zero was the one who blew up the building)

2. The Britannian army is incompetent and can't protect the civilians from harm.
(The TV audience thought the government had botched the rescue operation when the bomb went off.)

3. Only Zero and his Black Knights are your saviours.
(He made the Black Knights the saviours by rescuing the hostages from the bombs his own men planted.)

All in all, he is a smart guy. Winning public opinion is vital in fighting as underdogs, even if you have to lie and cheat to get good press.

[CronuZ]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Exactly. There is a fundamental issue in comparing these two character's actions, because their goals are actually not identical. There is no way Suzaku would be willing to start a war in order to free Japan, because hundreds of thousands will die that way and there even is no guarantee Japan would be free at the end of it.
Suzuka wants peace and harmony, but wishes to follow the law.

On the other hand, Lelouch wants Britannia to crash and burn. The assumption (quite correctly) is that when an empire crashes and burns, there would be millions killed. That's already put in to consideration as far as Lelouch is concerned, and is dismissed as a trivial matter.
Call me cynical, but so far I haven't believed a word Lelouch said as Zero to the cameras. It's all public relations. He wants to defend the weak, but the only weak person he is interested in protecting is his sister. Everyone else is disposable.

As an example, in episode 8...

Spoiler:

Lelouch blew up the building at the end for political reasons. He wants the TV audience to believe...

1. The Japanese terrorists are mad and can't be trusted. It was true before, but even more so now.
(People didn't know Zero was the one who blew up the building)

2. The Britannian army is incompetent and can't protect the civilians from harm.
(The TV audience thought the government had botched the rescue operation when the bomb went off.)

3. Only Zero and his Black Knights are your saviours.
(He made the Black Knights the saviours by rescuing the hostages from the bombs his own men planted.)

All in all, he is a smart guy. Winning public opinion is vital in fighting as underdogs, even if you have to lie and cheat to get good press.

Guess ur right about tat, but if he didn't care for frens, he wouldn't say "I know" when Rivalz call him.He is actually anxious to find an excuse, a way to save his frens. I believe although he alwayz like to act cool and shows no interest on others, deep within his a good guy. Thats why Shirley like him in the 1st place.

[Missilebuster]

morally they should seek the path with the least blood aka suzaku's path, but when it comes to genocide and world domination i think that sometimes you have to be a little violent. They should probably try to work together to come up with a plan. In a normal anime suzaku would be the main character lol, this makes it a whole lot more interesting.
My only problem with lelouch is that he likes blood and violence a little too much, he's killing relatively innocent people (by innocent i mean people that believe in their cause, and truly innocent people like that lady that was falling out of the window that suzaku had to catch) this makes him a little morally questionable (what are his motives anywho!?)

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Missilebuster

My only problem with lelouch is that he likes blood and violence a little too much, he's killing relatively innocent people (by innocent i mean people that believe in their cause, and truly innocent people like that lady that was falling out of the window that suzaku had to catch) this makes him a little morally questionable (what are his motives anywho!?)

are you really sure with this?
lelouch had already hard time with clovis' death.
in fact, i guess he would kill anyone against him onlyy if needed (judging of his comments in preview of episode 7, in the episode 6).
but it doesn't mean he woud love make a massacre you know...

as a side note : it wasn't lelouch direct fault for the falling woman at the shinjuku guetto incident. this kind of loss is colateral

[Deathkillz]

the main thing that distinguishes lulu from laght is that lulu does not or wish not to kill any innocent people...just the britannia scums that deserve it in his opinion...so basically anyone that works for britannia he has a natural hatred for but he wont go and just kill the innocent even if he wanted publicity...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

the main thing that distinguishes lulu from laght is that lulu does not or wish not to kill any innocent people...just the britannia scums that deserve it in his opinion...so basically anyone that works for britannia he has a natural hatred for but he wont go and just kill the innocent even if he wanted publicity...

That's where we disagree.

Lelouh wouldn't kill innocent people for fun (he isn't a sadist), but he would be willing to do anything if the reward is large enough. We are talking about someone who is willing to (threaten) shoot himself in the head in order to get the upper-hand over CC.

I also don't agree with Missilebuster. Lelouch does NOT like blood or violence. He merely doesn't dislike it.
He wouldn't deliberately chose the most violent means to get what he want, but if violence is the most efficient way, that's the way he will take. It's all about efficiency to him; that's why he disagree with Terrorism. Terrorism is all about violence, but it doesn't actually achieve anything useful for anyone.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's where we disagree.

Lelouh wouldn't kill innocent people for fun (he isn't a sadist), but he would be willing to do anything if the reward is large enough. We are talking about someone who is willing to (threaten) shoot himself in the head in order to get the upper-hand over CC.

I also don't agree with Missilebuster. Lelouch does NOT like blood or violence. He merely doesn't dislike it.
He wouldn't deliberately chose the most violent means to get what he want, but if violence is the most efficient way, that's the way he will take. It's all about efficiency to him; that's why he disagree with Terrorism. Terrorism is all about violence, but it doesn't actually achieve anything useful for anyone.

that's true, but if killing innocent people is a good way to get what he wants (destruction of britannia empire), it would be merely hard for them to be "innocent" in the first place. ( if innocent are standing against his way, it would be hard for them to be "innocent" so...)
what i meant is : involving innocent people with an effective way against the empire is hard to imagine. (except the orange incident which is most likely identical to terrorism, i don't see a lot of possibilities)

like you said, terrorism is a petty way for him. now destroying the empire would most likely involve only the noble household and the army. if innocent are killed, i guess those would be the result of some colateral damage, but absolutely not a priority target for a certain plan. How would he gain some benefit of killing innocent people, except public hatred? (well this is my opinion though)

[Clarste]

Well, he might frame the Britannian army for the killing of innocent Britannians, simply to get the public on his side, start revolts, whatever. I'm not sure he'd be willing to go that far, but that's an example of how killing innocents might help him. Not saving innocents that he could easily save is a bit more imaginable, which is morally kind of the same thing.

[Klashikari]

this is possible however, it won't really be possible since he really doesn't want tu use terrorism or any britannian in the first place.

however he will probably use the public opinion, that's for sure.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

this is possible however, it won't really be possible since he really doesn't want tu use terrorism or any britannian in the first place.

however he will probably use the public opinion, that's for sure.

The thing is, Lelouch doesn't actually need to fake civilian brutality on the part of Britannia or the Japanese Terrorists.

That doesn't mean Zero can't amplify said brutality though, (e.g. using bombs in episode 8) or to organise the mass-media to make existing acts of brutality look worse than usual through the sensationalism of reporters.

The most damaging kinds of lies are those that are mixed with the truth. Episode 8 is the first solid evidence that Lelouch is willing to deceive the innocents...

The question is, where does this lead? If you are willing to deceive innocent people for your own ends, how far would you need to go before the needs of the innocents were disregarded all together?

Lelouch made a promise not to tell lies to his sister, but he made it clear then, that anyone else is fair game.

[CronuZ]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The thing is, Lelouch doesn't actually need to fake civilian brutality on the part of Britannia or the Japanese Terrorists.

That doesn't mean Zero can't amplify said brutality though, (e.g. using bombs in episode 8) or to organise the mass-media to make existing acts of brutality look worse than usual through the sensationalism of reporters.

The most damaging kinds of lies are those that are mixed with the truth. Episode 8 is the first solid evidence that Lelouch is willing to deceive the innocents...

The question is, where does this lead? If you are willing to deceive innocent people for your own ends, how far would you need to go before the needs of the innocents were disregarded all together?

Lelouch made a promise not to tell lies to his sister, but he made it clear then, that anyone else is fair game.

Hes deceiving the public, Yes, but will he risking the lifes of innocent?? I'm not so sure about it. Remember, his need to turn the odds against him is really important cause he have no weapon watsoever... juz onli his Geass power and his Order of Black Knights. Up against a oversized opponent Brittania, u really can't blaming him gettin public recognition since this will really give the Brittanian army alot of media pressure and attention. Besides that, when he met the Resistants, he said he won't involve the innocent to join in their war. Hope he keep his words :X