The future of fansubs at stake?

[method]

Originally Posted by LArSON

If the fansubbers will dissapear over night, in short term, there will be no problem for japanese and american companies. But in medium and long term, situation will be:
- a decrease in sales in USA and Europe;
- same HK piracy but with less quality sub
- no direct impact on japanese market because i don't beleve there ar any japanese that are watching fansubs.

It would be hard to say what long term effect that the disappearance of fansubs would cause. As everyone says most people who download fansubs never buy. Of the ones that do there is nothing to say that they would seek out other means like magazine or online reviews.

[crumja]

Fansubbing will most likely collapse because of its own weight. Too many people involved are seeing the hobby as stressful and have stopped. Notice how so many old groups have died out and few new ones can actually be created (and stay long enough to finish a few series)? Increasingly the older generation of fansubbers is quitting and there doesn't appear to be a new one to take their place, yet. This is probably because of the demands on individuals to do jobs quickly(to get the downloads before speed groups) and in a quality manner(just higher expectations).

[Prince of Chronics]

it would be very surprising to see a U.S. company take legal action against a group... I think it's all just big talk... I think it would be easier to take down sites that distribute their protected properties... but whatever... I ain't no industry professional so I have no idea what the exact situation is... but, if distributors were truly serious about taking down groups cuz they were pirating their shit, then we would have seen enough legal suits against digi-subbers by now...

[Supersonic]

Countries which do not have extradition treaties but do maintain diplomatic relations with the US are Afghanistan, Algeria, Armenia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bophuthatswana, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, China (People's Republic of China), Ciskei, The Comors, Cote d' Ivoire, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Indonesia, Jordan, Korea (South), Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon, Madagascar, Mali, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Micronesia, Maldova, Mongolia, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Niger, Oman, Philippines, Principe and San Tome, Qatar, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sudan, Syria, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Western Samoa, Yemen, Zaire, and Zimbabwe.

Countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extradition treaties with the US are Andorra, Angola, Bantu Homelands, Bhutan, Bosnia, Cambodia, Ciskei, Cuba, Iran, Korea (North), Libya, Maldives, Serbia, Somalia, Taiwan, Transkei, Vanuatu, and Vietnam.

actually, any country that is a member of the UN is obligated to recognize U.S. copyrights, regardless of whether they are berne signatories or not, or whether they have diplomatic relations with the US or not.

ultimately, it is grounds for revocation of UN Membership, although that's about as likely as hell freezing over

[Secret Squirrel]

If the cost of doing so wasn't so prohibitive for the bandwidth required I'd love to see fansubs streamed over the internet (just as they are shown on Japanese TV)

That way it's not being continuously distributed (sure it's easy to capture, but no easier than turning on a VCR or DVD-Recorder) but it gets an airing.

The viewer then makes the choice whether to
1- watch, enjoy, and forget about it
2- watch one ep, think "this is crap" and forget it
3- watch, enjoy, and buy the DVD if and when it appears for sale in their country
4- rip and release on P2P

dreamland solution unfortunately, dreaming even further would be to do this with co-operation of licencing co/jp studio but that will nmever happen so still not free of the fact that it's being distributed unofficially, but it would be nice a kind of "new era of fansubbing" thing. (We don't get much anime on TV over here, so a streamed broadast would be nice)

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by crumja

Fansubbing will most likely collapse because of its own weight. Too many people involved are seeing the hobby as stressful and have stopped. Notice how so many old groups have died out and few new ones can actually be created (and stay long enough to finish a few series)? Increasingly the older generation of fansubbers is quitting and there doesn't appear to be a new one to take their place, yet. This is probably because of the demands on individuals to do jobs quickly(to get the downloads before speed groups) and in a quality manner(just higher expectations).

I think this is overreaching for conclusions based on not much evidence.

"Fansubbing" doesn't weigh anything. Even if there was a big dieback in the number of fansub groups, I don't think that adds up to more of a burden on whoever is left.

Lots of groups have proven themselves to be basically immune to "pressure." There have been some stories in the forums about groups breaking up, but I think that's more about having a place to gripe (I'm not begrudging anyone their gripes here) than it is a sign of some huge trend. It's only natural that people wind up doing other things, and lots of groups fade out quietly.

The middle of August is probably a weird time to take a straw poll, especially with regard to new groups. As far as I can tell, most of the action takes place within the school year - I expect some new groups will form around series coming up this fall.

[wao]

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

If the cost of doing so wasn't so prohibitive for the bandwidth required I'd love to see fansubs streamed over the internet (just as they are shown on Japanese TV)

That way it's not being continuously distributed (sure it's easy to capture, but no easier than turning on a VCR or DVD-Recorder) but it gets an airing.

The viewer then makes the choice whether to
1- watch, enjoy, and forget about it
2- watch one ep, think "this is crap" and forget it
3- watch, enjoy, and buy the DVD if and when it appears for sale in their country
4- rip and release on P2P

dreamland solution unfortunately, dreaming even further would be to do this with co-operation of licencing co/jp studio but that will nmever happen so still not free of the fact that it's being distributed unofficially, but it would be nice a kind of "new era of fansubbing" thing. (We don't get much anime on TV over here, so a streamed broadast would be nice)

Yes, I thought about the problem of people watching fansubs but then using them as a free alternative to legal DVDs... For unlicensed anime I think people are worried about the potential problem, which is that when the anime is licensed people still distribute it.
There must be some way where we can produce fansubs for unlicensed anime, so that they are only viewable multiple times - but not storable, so that nobody can continue keeping them after the show is licensed, or that only some people who do not get access to the show still get to view it.

Having those non-copiable kind of files won't work because you still can store it on your hard disk long after it's been licensed... and view it repeatedly. There has to be a way for the fansubbers to directly control its "distribution", so the only solution I can think of right now is to "air" it - on a program which can be controlled by the fansubbers so that after it's licensed it stops playing (downside is that once it's licensed in America no other viewers from other countries can view the fansubs), or it could be aired on a website, so that you MUST be on the internet while playing (rather than downloaded and played on the special program while offline), therefore the site can check your IP and if it's been licensed for your area you are forbidden to watch...

Though like said earlier, it's quite impossible to stream an entire episode of anime - in good enough quality - with the limits of current bandwidth. (I am saying all of this without considering people who rip off the "broadcast" and distribute on P2P, but it's helluva lot better than entire episodes going on P2P, isn't it? There will always and ultimately be people who do that sort of thing, anyway.)

If they somehow managed to do this anyway, I'd imagine they need a lot of money and I am very doubtful as to whether people will actually be so kind as to donate so much money for a 1. technically illegal and 2. non-profit thing that 3. is not charitable either.

Unless maybe all the fansub groups start releasing in .rm format and everyone is so queasy at the video quality that they ultimately buy the DVDs because the .rm is not worth keeping :P

...no actually maybe I don't want that. Stupid .rms.... and Chinese fansub groups all using .rm... I suppose the "target audience" is even less picky about video quality than I am () and also mostly suffer from poor connections (.rm -> smaller filesize -> faster download).
(Of course when you have smaller filesize people close the window when they finish and thus the torrent suffers from a VERY big number of connections for the first 2 days max, and then completely dies.)

[elio]

if i am force to purchase a manga; i rather spend that money learning japanese and buying the non translated anime or manga version, i refuse to buy it from a middle man or all these american companies who are just trying to milk out foreign company publishers and the american public, by marking up book from 150% of their original value, i don't think their concern is about the japanese publisher profit at all;but' mostly their, all these digital protection copyright are mostly to protect american companies's profits and to whatever country they conduct business with. as far it concern japanese they are still a xenophobic culture, they only concern them selves with asian and and the US ,every other country is of inconsequent to them in their nice little bubble. lately american animation company have become very relax and complacent, you can american are so lazy they have to import anime, with the exception of disney and warner brothers there are no mayor cartoon producer for young adult and i think it stupid to try and stick a disney or WB cartoon to an young adult, so viva la revolucion, and banzai for the japanese anime and if they do kill the fansub we should get satellite dish and watch live japanese anime and start an anime underworld empirer,loll

[zalas]

Originally Posted by elio

if i am force to purchase a manga; i rather spend that money learning japanese and buying the non translated anime or manga version, i refuse to buy it from a middle man or all these american companies who are just trying to milk out foreign company publishers and the american public, by marking up book from 150% of their original value, i don't think their concern is about the japanese publisher profit at all;but' mostly their, all these digital protection copyright are mostly to protect american companies's profits and to whatever country they conduct business with. as far it concern japanese they are still a xenophobic culture, they only concern them selves with asian and and the US ,every other country is of inconsequent to them in their nice little bubble. lately american animation company have become very relax and complacent, you can american are so lazy they have to import anime, with the exception of disney and warner brothers there are no mayor cartoon producer for young adult and i think it stupid to try and stick a disney or WB cartoon to an young adult, so viva la revolucion, and banzai for the japanese anime and if they do kill the fansub we should get satellite dish and watch live japanese anime and start an anime underworld empirer,loll

Um... most of the time manga is marked up in the US is because of actual printing costs. Paper is supposedly cheaper in Japan. Furthermore, some of the older, more expensive domestic manga have been printed on much higher quality paper. And a lot of times, the American companies aren't milking out Japanese publishers. You'll note that a lot more shows are being coproduced by American companies.

[kuru]

Originally Posted by zalas

Um... most of the time manga is marked up in the US is because of actual printing costs. Paper is supposedly cheaper in Japan. Furthermore, some of the older, more expensive domestic manga have been printed on much higher quality paper. And a lot of times, the American companies aren't milking out Japanese publishers. You'll note that a lot more shows are being coproduced by American companies.

No need to argument with the guy. His speech could be simply translated as "I want things for free and I hate people that want me to pay for stuff".

[LordBrian]

I was gonna nominate it as one of the better parody posts recently, because surely nobody could make a post like that and mean it...right?

[KristopherZ]

With foreign export generating larger and more significant portion of the Japanese entertainment industry's income, especially in manga and anime, Japanese companies are working on methods to minimize their significant losses to piracy.

Due to its nature, manga sales have not been suffering significant losses to piracy, however there is a large number of pirated CDs and DVDs being sold overseas, large enough for the Japanese industry to begin researching and implementing drastic counter-measures.

The Japanese visual contents industry will begin labeling products with stickers designating them as legitimate exports, thereby making it easy to identify pirated goods. In July it was reported that 38 Japanese entertainment companies were set to introduce a "Made in Japan" trademark for similar purposes. According to a current report on Yahoo Japan, companies will start adding the stickers to exported goods as early as this September. In order to provide additional ammunition for their fight against international piracy they will also begin applying for trademarks in various countries in North America, Europe and Asia.

The reports do not mention what measures will be taken to keep piracy operations from copying producing fake copies of the identifying stickers.

Additionally, it was recently mentioned at the Otakon "State of the Industry" panel that Japanese companies may start direct legal processes against North American fansubbers (more details on this will be presented in our final Otakon coverage later this week).

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=5385

[Mr_Paper]

This topic was, more or less, thoroughly discussed here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=18514

Although, honestly, stickers are cheap and can be easily copyed. It'll be about as effective as barcoding the products. I'm quite confidant that the Unicate copy protection method would be the only really way to reduce piracy.

[Joker-kun]

Piracy is like everyday crime - obviously - it will never be stopped, most likely just get wose, maybe if they're lucky reduced.

[KristopherZ]

Originally Posted by wao

Importing R1/R2s is expensive though. If this really happens and there is a major crackdown on fansub groups then maybe I got to start turning to manga...

I am surprized that not more people are into manga, for the most part we get stuff licensed left and right. We have manga versions of anime that wont be licensed for another 1 or 2 years. Of course I do know why most anime fans that DL fansubs don't buy manga, because they have to BUY IT!!!

The reason why fansubs are so popular is because it is free, when you take the free aspect of it away, that automatically knocks down a huge percentage of people who Downloaded it.

[KristopherZ]

Originally Posted by zalas

Um... most of the time manga is marked up in the US is because of actual printing costs. Paper is supposedly cheaper in Japan. Furthermore, some of the older, more expensive domestic manga have been printed on much higher quality paper. And a lot of times, the American companies aren't milking out Japanese publishers. You'll note that a lot more shows are being coproduced by American companies.

There are even bigger reasons why manga is far cheaper in Japan rather than the USA. The first one is of course, the print runs. In america one print run of manga will be around 2,000 copies. In Japan one print run of manga can be from 50,000 copies to 2,150,000 copies. We all know that the more that are produced the lower the cost of production per unit goes. If you have ever read a Japanese manga, you can tell why they are cheaper also. The Japanese Manga's use far chaper paper than us, the Japanese manga's are about 2 centimeters smaller in it's dimensions compared to American releases, and they use less glue in the spine, making it more bendable and cheaper.

Also you are right because American Publishers like Viz, Tokyopop, and many others actually work with the Japanese publishers and pay a small portion of development. So we are helping the Japanese industry in our own way. That also cuts costs in licensing which means that the american publisher can be more profitable, which means that they can license more series, which means that they would hire more people. In the end, it would create more sales, bigger print runs, and cheaper print runs.

Ever wonder why Shonen Jump is $7.95? That is because they can recover some costs in the monthly anthologies. Also the biggest reason is that a typical Shonen Jump print run is 4 or 5 times larger than the "typical" manga print run.

[Uska]

Originally Posted by zalas

Um... most of the time manga is marked up in the US is because of actual printing costs. Paper is supposedly cheaper in Japan. Furthermore, some of the older, more expensive domestic manga have been printed on much higher quality paper. And a lot of times, the American companies aren't milking out Japanese publishers. You'll note that a lot more shows are being coproduced by American companies.

That and manga now is like from 7.95 to 9.95. Not buying manga, that's being EXTREMELY cheap these days. I can understand anime, I can't afford more than 1 DVD every 1 or 3 months. But manga I can get a volume once a month usually..

[MarcB]

Enjoy fansubs while it is still possible....

Protection schemes are getting better and better; for example:

Super Audio CD is still not cracked and it looks like it will be impossible to crack:
http://www.superaudiocd.philips.com/...ntent-2167.pdf

The same for DVD Audio (even an anolog copy is not possible):
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technol...d_copyprot.htm


There was project to try crack the AHDTV encryption; which failed:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...?t=6465&page=5

No doubt that the content-protection of the new HD DVD and Blue Ray standards will be impossible to crack or to copy.

[zalas]

Originally Posted by MarcB

Enjoy fansubs while it is still possible....

Protection schemes are getting better and better; for example:

Super Audio CD is still not cracked and it looks like it will be impossible to crack:
http://www.superaudiocd.philips.com/...ntent-2167.pdf

The same for DVD Audio (even an anolog copy is not possible):
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technol...d_copyprot.htm


There was project to try crack the AHDTV encryption; which failed:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...?t=6465&page=5

No doubt that the content-protection of the new HD DVD and Blue Ray standards will be impossible to crack or to copy.

These protection schemes still don't prevent people from doing an analog transfer. Sure it's lossy, but so is compressing using a lossy codec.

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by MarcB

No doubt that the content-protection of the new HD DVD and Blue Ray standards will be impossible to crack or to copy.

With cracks you have to look at the DEMAND.
What's the demand for Super Audio CD being cracked?
Now, what is the level of demand for the cracking of the next video disk?

More demand = more minds working on it.

Say no more ^^