AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Reviews & Recommendations > Custom Requests

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2018-05-09, 21:51   Link #1
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Trap characters in Mecha anime

At this point it seems that almost every other anime has a trap character in it, but I can't really think of a mecha anime with one.

BTW with "trap character" I mean more specifically someone who consistently look like a girl or that can be mistaken for a girl even when they aren't crossdressing. Characters like Alto from Macross Frontier, Belmont from Mospeada or Touga\Eiji from Gravion don't quite fit the bill of what I'm looking for.

Hideyoshi, Astolfo, Felix or Ruka are good examples of that kind of character, but none of them are from a mecha anime.

Oh and by mecha anime I mean something with robots, just to be clear.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-09, 22:44   Link #2
Verso Sciolto
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Transgender [...] Defamatory Language
Verso Sciolto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-09, 23:59   Link #3
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
BTW with "trap character" I mean more specifically someone who consistently look like a girl or that can be mistaken for a girl even when they aren't crossdressing.
One of the easiest answers would be Tieria Erde from Gundam 00. He just looks like a girl even if he's not trying to. People often mistook him for a girl by looks before they hear his masculine voice :



Heck, he's the prettiest and most feminine among the bishie Gundam pilots:

And when he actually makes an attempt to become a girl for an infiltration mission, he's smokin' hot that they even made a figure out of him:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto View Post
The term "trap" in anime is mostly not used for transgender people but for actual males who look like females even though those males are just fine and dandy with being males and aren't trying to look like females.
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-10, 07:18   Link #4
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
The term "trap" in anime is mostly not used for transgender people but for actual males who look like females even though those males are just fine and dandy with being males and aren't trying to look like females.
That is correct and that's the type of character I was asking for. The actual japanese term is "otoko no ko" (男の娘), but "trap" is what's used by western audience. There is no English term other than that to refer to the trope.

Thanks for the suggestion btw.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-10, 17:43   Link #5
LoweGear
Secret Society BLANKET
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of the usual flamenco
Since someone already mentioned Tieria, does Ernesti from Knights & Magic count?
__________________

On Flying: "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
LoweGear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-11, 17:25   Link #6
cyberdemon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Loran Cehack from Turn A Gundam
__________________
cyberdemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-11, 20:52   Link #7
Verso Sciolto
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
[...]The actual japanese term is "otoko no ko" (男の娘), but "trap" is what's used by western audience. There is no English term other than that to refer to the trope.[...]
The term Otokonoko, as quite a few other Japanese loanwords is used by "Anime" and "Manga" "fans" in other parts of the world as well. Otokonoko is used -as is- in this very context quite often and that's what could have been used in the title and OP. You defined the word you used and you could have done the same for Otoko no ko, i.e. use the term then define it to clarify what you had in mind.
"Otokonoko trope" is literally used in English, as such.

The word you used has been included in Glaad's advisory for good reason. The connotations indicated should prompt a change in word usage. Just because something has been used before doesn't mean its usage must continue. That too can be acknowledged.

There are also other words in the English language, besides the perfectly acceptable loan word Otokonoko, to describe people and/or characters as you defined them.
Verso Sciolto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-12, 01:48   Link #8
Archon_Wing
Underwhelmed
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
The term "trap" in anime is mostly not used for transgender people but for actual males who look like females even though those males are just fine and dandy with being males and aren't trying to look like females.
Yea, that's a separate issue-- of course anime is simply not the medium where these issues are handled in anything close to a mature manner. I can think of Steins;Gate and Wandering Son, and maybe Hunter x Hunter, but often times traps just seem like the stock fan appeal character and mostly cringeworthy because it has little to do with the character's own thought processes but rather how the viewer views them (mostly for ridicule unfortunately)
__________________
Let us start here from Square one. No... from zero!
You do not wish to know anything. You wish only to speak.
That which you know, you ignore, because it is inconvenient.
That which you do not know, you invent.

Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-15, 11:30   Link #9
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto View Post
The term Otokonoko, as quite a few other Japanese loanwords is used by "Anime" and "Manga" "fans" in other parts of the world as well. Otokonoko is used -as is- in this very context quite often and that's what could have been used in the title and OP. You defined the word you used and you could have done the same for Otoko no ko, i.e. use the term then define it to clarify what you had in mind.
"Otokonoko trope" is literally used in English, as such.
It doesn't make much sense to use the word "otoko no ko" in English because it's completely indistinguishable from 男の子 which just means "boy", the play on words is completely lost in romaji.

If we were to use that expression in English I'd say it would be better to use the other reading "otoko no musume" instead.


At any rate your claim that "otoko no ko" is commonly used is dubious. For instance vndb doesn't have an "otoko no ko" tag at all, but it has several "trap" tags.

There's also an enormous difference in agreement with the definition of "trap" in the urban dictionary (7000+) vs otokonoko (51)
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-16, 00:08   Link #10
Verso Sciolto
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
...
In the thread title and OP you used a word you subsequently defined. You can do the same with alternative terms, which are available. The words can all be cause for misunderstanding but while Otokonoko may be unfamiliar and the potential misunderstanding from its usage may stem from uncertainty about its meaning and/or similarity with its homophone, “trap” can be “misunderstood” for a slur, its usage can be seen as defamatory. Usage of that word also has real consequences for people described in a derogatory fashion with that word. There are good reasons to change and forego using that term for those reasons. It is logical to do so. As you note alternatives do exist. Not as widespread but still common enough to be used instead and these alternatives come without the negative connotations. Change must also start somewhere.
Verso Sciolto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-16, 02:14   Link #11
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto View Post
...“trap” can be “misunderstood” for a slur, its usage can be seen as defamatory. Usage of that word also has real consequences for people described in a derogatory fashion with that word. There are good reasons to change and forego using that term for those reasons. It is logical to do so. As you note alternatives do exist. Not as widespread but still common enough to be used instead and these alternatives come without the negative connotations. Change must also start somewhere.
I think the meaning of "trap" and its distinction from being trans is well understood in the fandom. Granted, there aren't a lot of honest-to-god transgender characters in anime, the only one I can think of right now is this one, but I've never seen her referred to as a trap, so...

Just 'cause some American transgender lobby that's clueless about our culture says it is a defamatory term does not make it so.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-16, 05:57   Link #12
pervypig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
You serious? knights x magic just aired not long ago, and the MC is the trap
pervypig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-16, 15:12   Link #13
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Granted, there aren't a lot of honest-to-god transgender characters in anime, the only one I can think of right now is this one, but I've never seen her referred to as a trap, so...
There's also Criff Kei from Mugen no Ryvius. And there's quite a few from Hourou Musuko, which addresses transsexualism directly.

There are several others that I could name but are mostly joke characters, so I don't think they really count.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pervypig View Post
You serious? knights x magic just aired not long ago, and the MC is the trap .
Yeah someone mentioned him before, I actually never heard of that anime, I might check it out.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-17, 20:36   Link #14
Verso Sciolto
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I think the meaning of "trap" and its distinction from being trans is well understood in the fandom.[…]
My answer to that is multifold. Anime fandom is not monolithic. Not homogenous. Not even in the anglosphere nor in places where Englsh loanwords have been incorporated into the language or vernacular. There are those among us who don't understand and there are those who do understand the various connotations of the usage of certain words.

Androgyny is not in itself well understood and/or accepted in anime fandom either, nor in societies at large. The word trap has also been used as an insult to malign people "who consistently look like a girl or that can be mistaken for a girl even when they aren't cross dressing", to go by the descriptive clarifying the sense in which the word was used this time, in this specific thread. Briefly defined to be clear and to avoid possible confusion - since other interpretations do exist.

So called effeminate boys and men are also targets of derision against whom this specific English word is also used - in real world scenarios with actual people as well as in commentary on fictional characters and stories in which the people appear apparently fitting the OPs criteria. This in addition to being used as a derogatory term for transgender people and/or characters as well.

Whenever this topic comes up in a thread there are frequently people who indicate not being aware -previously- that the English language word trap has negative connotations as well. People who come to realise with explanation that its roots in the English language stem from the verb "to trap" - in the sense of “to entrap” - and can therefore be problematic. People who then stop using this word to describe other people for that reason.

Glaad exists and issues such English language advisories in part because of past experiences reported by and about the people this organisation represents. Guides issued and spread in the hope that the situation can be improved.

There are those among us who understand the term to be a slur and use it for precisely that reason. I’d rather not quote examples of threads where this happened and thereby give such people who use it as an insult another platform but can cite examples if you truly believe such incidents -of the word being used in a derogatory way- don’t occur.
Verso Sciolto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-18, 03:13   Link #15
Sheba
Part-Time TTK & Master
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Iwakawa base and Chaldea
Age: 38
Jesus Christ, lighten the F up. Jan-Poo never meant harm, the term itself was first meant in a tongue-in-cheek. In a majority of case among anime fans, it was also meant in that way. All you ever manage to accomplish with that militant and vigilante attitude is to make people more defensive. Reading the context is important, no need to bring identity politics mumbo jumbo in conversations that dont call for it.

Last edited by Sheba; 2018-05-18 at 03:45.
Sheba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-19, 22:32   Link #16
Chibiloli
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
If you don’t mind mecha musume, then I got one from Robot girls Z:
Spoiler for It’s a trap!:
__________________
Chibiloli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-20, 00:39   Link #17
Verso Sciolto
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
... There are several others that I could name but are mostly joke characters, so I don't think they really count. ...
A lot of Japanese storytellers use humour to broach sensitive or controversial topics successfully but the attitude, the intent, of many other content creators in Japanese media is often no better or worse than the attitude of manga and anime fans. There are quite a few mangaka putting out problematic works. Not having fun with but making fun of, ridiculing with malicious intent, such characters as you have in mind, for example.

The behaviour of such mangaka, no matter how outrageous, is often condoned, excused and at times agreed with and/or encouraged by fans of Japanese media.

Some people are apparently optimistic about fandom at large but I often see little reason for such optimism. I don’t think Japanese media are particularly good at dealing with androgynous people or the depiction of same in fiction. I don’t think Japanese media fandom is particularly good at dealing with that reality either. Not in the country itself and not overseas either. Matters of conformity...

Last edited by Verso Sciolto; 2018-05-20 at 01:06.
Verso Sciolto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-20, 07:46   Link #18
Chibiloli
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
One of the easiest answers would be Tieria Erde from Gundam 00. He just looks like a girl even if he's not trying to. People often mistook him for a girl by looks before they hear his masculine voice :



Heck, he's the prettiest and most feminine among the bishie Gundam pilots:

And when he actually makes an attempt to become a girl for an infiltration mission, he's smokin' hot that they even made a figure out of him:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The term "trap" in anime is mostly not used for transgender people but for actual males who look like females even though those males are just fine and dandy with being males and aren't trying to look like females.
Does Yamagi Gilmerton from IBO count? I mean, we did suspect he was a girl due to his crush on Shino, and his feminine appearance, although he was just gay.
__________________
Chibiloli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-20, 11:32   Link #19
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chibiloli View Post
Does Yamagi Gilmerton from IBO count? I mean, we did suspect he was a girl due to his crush on Shino, and his feminine appearance, although he was just gay.
I don't really think so. From the outer appearance, Yamagi from Gundam: IBO looks like a boy just fine and behaves like one:



Some people only started to suspect him as a "girl in disguise" after he shows affection to Shino. But then it's revealed that he's just gay.
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.