Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Randomzx]

The LN goes into quite a bit more detail about what Saber was doing to the bike.

quoted from another post:

Boiled down, basically the bike was way overtuned and was tearing itself apart. Saber applied her armor onto the bike to reinforce the mechanical parts (i.e., not just the surface) so that it could continue to function and at an even higher level.

Another thing they didn't make clear was how the bike was so overpowered that a human can't ride it as it'll immediately wheelie and then flip. Saber was using massive prana bursts to force the front wheel down, maintain grip and to steer in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

And how exactly does that make him a horrible person? If he had indeed resented and envied Tokiomi all along for taking the woman he loved (which yes, I believe he did), but never acted out on it, not until Tokiomi discarded one of their children and Kariya subjected himself to insanity-inducing torture, aren't those the actions of a good man rather than a despicable one? I don't see what's so vile about a person who tries their best to suppress their negative feelings and impulses. Or do you actually believe anyone who holds any sort of resentment within them is immediately deserving of hatred? If so, I imagine there's very few people in this world you wouldn't despise. Not to say none at all.

Oh, yes. Denial is common habit in people, and I hate it.

People who try to rationalize their actions, taking the moral high ground, are some of the worst. They're cowards who can't even see their feelings eye to eye. In that respect, Kotomine is so much more preferable.

I never questioned his heroic intentions toward Sakura, though it's mostly just a facade.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

I mean, you almost make it sound as if Kariya would've looked better in your eyes if he had made his resentment for Tokiomi known from the start, instead of him having managed to suppress it out of respect for Aoi's decision for so many years and only eventually acted out on it after severe damage to his psyche.

Not that he made it known, but rather that he admitted it to himself. Lying to anyone else is permissible, but lying to yourself is probably the worst thing you can do. Here, Kariya is intentionally sugar-coating his actions by doing it for "Sakura's sake".

[erneiz_hyde]

Good deeds and intentions are hypocritical in nature because it's done not for the sake of those who were helped but for those who did the helping; to make themselves feel better. On the other hand pure evil is the purest form of honesty in all sense of the word.

God I love people.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Good deeds and intentions are hypocritical in nature because it's done not for the sake of those who were helped but for those who did the helping; to make themselves feel better. On the other hand pure evil is the purest form of honesty in all sense of the word.

God I love people.

No, he's not saying Kariya's actions are bad per se, but his motives are impure (thus lying to himself).

His thought process is that, he humiliates Tokiomi, saves Sakura, and Aoi will be so grateful she will dive into his arms. And he will have a "happily ever after".

Part of the reason he wants to save Sakura is getting into Aoi's pants. And learning Aoi hating him just shattered his whole vision, that he went ahead and asphyxiated her (can't handle the fact that his own lies to himself is falling apart).

[Kaioshin Sama]

This episode kind of had a hint of Shakespearean tragedy to it, which was a nice touch. I like how Kariya basically accomplished the exact opposite of what he set out to do so far. Guy just isn't cut out to play the game. Maybe he can go out in a blaze of glory next episode, but somehow I doubt it.

Also Saber destroyed Riders ride with her super robot styled attack again. The chariot is done for.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Good deeds and intentions are hypocritical in nature because it's done not for the sake of those who were helped but for those who did the helping; to make themselves feel better. On the other hand pure evil is the purest form of honesty in all sense of the word.

God I love people.

If everyone just admitted that to himself/herself, the world would be so much better.

Of course, "evil" isn't exactly a good word to use here. "Selfishness" is a much better alternative.

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Touko

No, he's not saying Kariya's actions are bad per se, but his motives are impure (thus lying to himself).

His thought process is that, he humiliates Tokiomi, saves Sakura, and Aoi will be so grateful she will dive into his arms. And he will have a "happily ever after".

Part of the reason he wants to save Sakura is getting into Aoi's pants. And learning Aoi hating him just shattered his whole vision, that he went ahead and asphyxiated her (can't handle the fact that his own lies to himself is falling apart).

I'm pretty sure Kariya is aware he won't be getting a happily ever after. Even if he won the grail, his body has been destroyed and probably he would die shortly thereafter no matter what.

Becoming Zouken's puppet was a bad choice but since he had no magical training and the Tousakas were not going to take their daughter back he probably saw it as the only chance he had to save her, the alternative would be to leave her to Zouken's plans.

[Touko]

Not "happily ever after" in the fairy tale sense, for sure.

But he did hope that he would win back Aoi and dying with her loving him finally.

If he entered purely to save Sakura, he won't be so stubbornly set on killing Tokiomi's Servant and humiliating him.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Touko

If he entered purely to save Sakura, he won't be so stubbornly set on killing Tokiomi's Servant and humiliating him.

But couldn't that have just been because he thought Tokiomi was a bad person, for giving away his daughter like that, and being a Magus? He already had a low opinion of mages.

It doesn't have to just be because he hated him because of Aoi.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

I'm pretty sure Kariya is aware he won't be getting a happily ever after. Even if he won the grail, his body has been destroyed and probably he would die shortly thereafter no matter what.

Becoming Zouken's puppet was a bad choice but since he had no magical training and the Tousakas were not going to take their daughter back he probably saw it as the only chance he had to save her, the alternative would be to leave her to Zouken's plans.

Exactly. He was very delusional and put Aoi on a pedestal, but like the other post i made on the last page, he did this purely because he wanted her to be happy. But at the same time, did not realize even with his negligence and the alien mindset of a magus, Aoi loved Tokiomi.

Make no mistake, he did in fact do this because he cared about Sakura and the guilt felt from his leaving the Matou long ago, no matter how horrid that future would have been, when he saw someone else suffer that fate.

He did the best he could given the situation presented, as the actual family had left the girl and never looked back. Now, as the puppet of an evil magus, there is a chance she would be seen as a heretic anyway, so there is not much Kariya could do when the girl's life was in this guy's hands. Some would turn around and pretend they never saw anything.

Again, this story is pretty much the end of a road of bad communication and too many assumptions from three people. In their eyes he was a bum who gave up on magic because he was a coward. In his eyes, the father was a callous fiend undeserving of his old friend's love and the daughters he has, and the mother was a poor victim needing to be saved. Each side was pretty egocentric.

Originally Posted by Qilin

If everyone just admitted that to himself/herself, the world would be so much better.

Of course, "evil" isn't exactly a good word to use here. "Selfishness" is a much better alternative.

Not to be rude to you, but that statement is completely disingenuous to the good nature that people in fact do have. There is no 'honest' intent, motivations are mired in all types of feelings, so you can't hammer down every action as objectionably selfish.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Not to be rude to you, but that statement is completely disingenuous to the good nature that people in fact do have. There is no 'honest' intent, motivations are mired in all types of feelings, so you can't hammer down every action as objectionably selfish.

The whole altruism vs. egoism debate thing has been around for a long time. Each side has their own points, and debate still remains largely unresolved. As such, I don't think pursuing this subject any further will lead to anything substantial.

However, if you still want to proceed with this line of discussion despite all that, I honestly don't mind.

[LostHanyou]

I always saw Kariya's devotion to Sakura and Aoi as different things - like, for example, if he failed doing one thing, that wouldn't change anything about his devotion to the other. I thought this was pretty clear in volume 1 of the LN, where Kariya's thoughts are spelled out clearly.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Oh, yes. Denial is common habit in people, and I hate it.

People who try to rationalize their actions, taking the moral high ground, are some of the worst. They're cowards who can't even see their feelings eye to eye. In that respect, Kotomine is so much more preferable.

Not really interested in pursuing the ethics debate here, but I must say it's funny that you would cite Kotomine of all people as a preferable example, since, well, he's been in denial ever since he was born, and only just recently stopped lying to himself thanks to Gilgamesh's influence. And, of course, the end result of him ceasing to lie to himself was him becoming an inhumane monster.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Not really interested in pursuing the ethics debate here, but I must say it's funny that you would cite Kotomine of all people as a preferable example, since, well, he's been in denial ever since he was born, and only just recently stopped lying to himself thanks to Gilgamesh's influence. And, of course, the end result of him ceasing to lie to himself was him becoming an inhumane monster.

To be honest, Kirei's development has been one of the most entertaining parts of the show for me. For me, his growth did not occur in a single instant as you implied, but it happened gradually. All the hurdles and conflicts he underwent engaged me more and more into his character. By this point, he managed to wholeheartedly accept himself as he was (with help from Gilgamesh). Of course, if his eccentricity was, say, "homosexuality" instead of "enjoying other people's suffering" people might have been a bit more sympathetic.

It's much better to be an inhumane monster without pretense than being an inhumane monster while pretending to be human. Any character who chooses to become honest with himself/herself can go one of two ways:

1. The character embraces his/her true nature and acts accordingly (like Kotomine).

2. The character identifies the problem and actively tries to change himself/herself.

That said, if a character continues to deny his/her true feelings, the problem will never be identified or remedied. The person would essentially be living a lie.

[erneiz_hyde]

Not trying to argue or anything, but "humane" has always strike me as a peculiar word, because only human beings are capable of being "inhumane". To my knowledge, only humans can deliberately draw "senseless amusement" out of others' misery.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Qilin

For me, his growth did not occur in a single instant as you implied, but it happened gradually.

Uh, I didn't imply that at all. Episode 17 marked the definitive turning point where he started actively and entirely consciously acting upon his acceptance of his nature, beginning with the betrayal of Tokiomi, but of course it was very much a gradual process. Him deriving pleasure from healing Kariya upon his fight with Tokiomi yet still harboring doubts about it showed that perfectly. His progressive mutation towards the Kirei we saw in this episode was carefully and deliberately planned out, which is why it's been, as you said, one of the most entertaining parts of the show.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Any character who chooses to become honest with himself/herself can go one of two ways:

1. The character embraces his/her true nature and acts accordingly (like Kotomine).

2. The character identifies the problem and actively tries to change himself/herself.

Kirei actually did try that second way (it's why he got himself a wife, mentioned in the first episode), but since it didn't work out, he resorted to denial, which he's finally broken free of at this juncture.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Kirei actually did try that second way (it's why he got himself a wife, mentioned in the first episode), but since it didn't work out, he resorted to denial, which he's finally broken free of at this juncture.

And that's what puts Kirei miles above Kariya at this point, imo.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Qilin

And that's what puts Kirei miles above Kariya at this point, imo.

Above at what? It's one thing to say that Kirei's a more interesting Fate/Zero character but I get the impression from your posts that you think Kirei's actually a better person just because his motives are pure. And that is... interesting logic to say the least.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Above at what? It's one thing to say that Kirei's a more interesting Fate/Zero character but I get the impression from your posts that you think Kirei's actually a better person just because his motives are pure. And that is... interesting logic to say the least.

To quote myself:

It's much better to be an inhumane monster without pretense than being an inhumane monster while pretending to be human.

I really want to avoid having a morality discussion here though.

[Kimidori]

Originally Posted by Qilin

To quote myself:

I really want to avoid having a morality discussion here though.

so you are implying Kariya is an inhumane monster while pretending to be human? I really don't see Kariya like that.