Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[00-Raiser]

So from what I can tell people want two things out of Force:

1.) The same old spells being spammed over and over
2.) Push over villains

To me both of those things would make it boring. We have three seasons of them tossing around their signature magic blasts so why do we need another? Wouldn't Force then become a rehash of the past seasons? The need for more tech sets Force apart but at the same time the fighting is still essentially the same, only with less shouting of funky attack names. I would agree to the comparison of the transition of Super robot to Real robot in that sense.

Having villains that never get the upperhand is also boring. It adds tension when the heros recieve a decisive beating and it leaves you wondering how they'll turn things around.

People have been bringing up the same issues for awhile now and I have to say to those people that if it's really that big a problem for you, stop reading it. Those elements are firmly planted in the foundation of the manga and constantly pointing it out won't cause the author to change his mind. Why continue reading something that only causes negative feelings?

[Justin_Brett]

So from what I can tell people want two things out of Force:

1.) The same old spells being spammed over and over

Yeah, seeing guns get spammed is way better. They're so interesting so far, the way they shoot, and...shoot.

2.) Push over villains

Stop generalizing. There is a difference between villains that pose a threat and villains that are impossible for the heroes to realistically defeat.

And why do I keep reading? Because I assume, deep down, that there is going to be some payoff for all of what's happened so far. And there had better be. Unless Tsuzuki has been trying his hardest to make Force really entertaining from the start, in which case...

[Mirron]

I'd like to see them use more magic, less tech, and continue to just develop new skills and spells, but I don't want cakewalk villains. I like how destructive the villains currently are. It'll all end in the heroes favor, so that's all I need.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

So from what I can tell people want two things out of Force:
1.) The same old spells being spammed over and over
2.) Push over villains

1) Fights is not just about using the biggest spells or attacks in your arsenal, it's about using things in your arsenal smartly. Take Chinmi from Tekken Chinmi, for instance. He has, what four, five signature moves? But the fights never got boring because they are never the same, and he must always find new ways to use his already battle-proven techniques.
2. There's a difference between pushover villains, villains that can prove a difficult opponent, and opponents so impossible to overcome you got yourself a sign for a new DragonBall arc... Guess what Signum VS Cypha was...

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

So from what I can tell people want two things out of Force:

1.) The same old spells being spammed over and over
2.) Push over villains

To me both of those things would make it boring. We have three seasons of them tossing around their signature magic blasts so why do we need another? Wouldn't Force then become a rehash of the past seasons? The need for more tech sets Force apart but at the same time the fighting is still essentially the same, only with less shouting of funky attack names. I would agree to the comparison of the transition of Super robot to Real robot in that sense.

Because that's the power we see our loved characters harness and develop over the course of the seasons and fierce battles, having the old cast stripped of their original powers makes them feels unrelated to the developement we watched them achieving and as such as a waste of pages, if Tsuzuki wants new powers why not simply replace the cast? Personally i love the shouting of attacks names and seeing heroes getting their powers and skill pumped up by virtue and emotions, StrikerS takes a step away from that but then i realized it still conserve something of it in Subaru. FORCE distances far away from it and turned more "real"(i think the Nanoha cast is not suited for this kind of story it feels out of place here). I like the old spells and the variety of styles was pretty wide and interesting, we had swords, scythes, staffs, gauntlests, spears, rings, books, martial arts and a freaking hammer with colorfull and amazing looking effects(i never liked seeing the cast uniformed very much, they feel unpersonalized and too homogeneus), if anything they can develop new techniques and spells each one in their own particular style and show to the audience that they keep getting better with the flow of time. Instead they just forgott about all that progress and take manufactured weapons that very soon will be produced en masse, making the once original and individually identifiable heroes into serialized and monochromatic soldiers.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Having villains that never get the upperhand is also boring. It adds tension when the heros recieve a decisive beating and it leaves you wondering how they'll turn things around.

And what about past villains never getting the upper hand? Precia trounce EVERYONE with humongous interdimentional lightning bolts and even disables the Arthra temporarily. The Wolkenritter pretty much trashed the heroes and demonstrates to be pretty difficult opponents during near the entirety of A's and the Numbers ....oh boy the Numbers, they anhilated the heroes headquarters, kicked all sorts of butts and make Riot Force Six and the TSAB to look like a bunch of fools, kidnapped Nanoha's child and powered up a soon-to-be invincible warship to take the capital planet of an intergalactic goverment hostage, even if Signum managed to defeat Zest and a bunch of Mecha mooks that won't make any difference on the overall conflict, basically Shamal and Zafira are the ones who turn the tide on the heroes's favour. I find amusing how undermined Jail and the Numbers's near succes is xD.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

People have been bringing up the same issues for awhile now and I have to say to those people that if it's really that big a problem for you, stop reading it. Those elements are firmly planted in the foundation of the manga and constantly pointing it out won't cause the author to change his mind.

That's comon knowledge everyone here knows that Tsuzuki will never find out about our complaints and even if he found it he can(and will) simply shrugg off and drink a beer.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Why continue reading something that only causes negative feelings?

I spent the last year trying to find a good answer to that without success xDU.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

People have been bringing up the same issues for awhile now and I have to say to those people that if it's really that big a problem for you, stop reading it. Those elements are firmly planted in the foundation of the manga and constantly pointing it out won't cause the author to change his mind. Why continue reading something that only causes negative feelings?

1. The manga updates once a month (in Japan). There's just too much time for us to over-analyze every tidbit between chapters.
2. I don't abandon a series I followed easily, even one that is glaringly becoming a trainwreck. I guess some small part of me still prayed that there will be a miracle, and the manga will grow the beard halfway. And those foundations might be in the manga, but they are not the foundations of the series. On a related note, you do realize that with the way things go, it will be even less possible for Yuuno to return as a combatant?
3. I like Isis.

[Justin_Brett]

I like Touma, personally, just 'cause he's the everyman.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Yeah, seeing guns get spammed is way better. They're so interesting so far, the way they shoot, and...shoot.

Like I said, no different from firing a divine buster or the like. Yeah, you got more variety with bind spells etc, but the new weapons still offer a variety of armaments and modes for said armaments. And again, by virtue of being physical arms it's something different within the bounds of the franchise.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Stop generalizing. There is a difference between villains that pose a threat and villains that are impossible for the heroes to realistically defeat.

The Huckebein certainly aren't the latter. They have the means to defeat them but not yet the skill. They have to work harder to earn their victory.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Because that's the power we see our loved characters harness and develop over the course of the seasons and fierce battles

And now we'll see them harness and develop a new power over the course of the season and fierce battles.

It's not like they lost their old abilities ala Metroid. Those skills are just not suitable for the current situation. You need the right method for the right job.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And what about past villains never getting the upper hand? Precia trounce EVERYONE with humongous interdimentional lightning bolts and even disables the Arthra temporarily. The Wolkenritter pretty much trashed the heroes and demonstrates to be pretty difficult opponents during near the entirety of A's and the Numbers ....oh boy the Numbers, they anhilated the heroes headquarters, kicked all sorts of butts and make Riot Force Six and the TSAB to look like a bunch of fools, kidnapped Nanoha's child and powered up a soon-to-be invincible warship to take the capital planet of an intergalactic goverment hostage, even if Signum managed to defeat Zest and a bunch of Mecha mooks that won't make any difference on the overall conflict, basically Shamal and Zafira are the ones who turn the tide on the heroes's favour. I find amusing how undermined Jail and the Numbers's near succes is xD.

Then why are some people getting bent out of shape over the Huckebein winning?

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That's comon knowledge everyone here knows that Tsuzuki will never find out about our complaints and even if he found it he can(and will) simply shrugg off and drink a beer.

Then why do you continue to criticize?

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

And why do I keep reading? Because I assume, deep down, that there is going to be some payoff for all of what's happened so far. And there had better be. Unless Tsuzuki has been trying his hardest to make Force really entertaining from the start, in which case...

Originally Posted by Tiresias

1. I don't abandon a series I followed easily, even one that is glaringly becoming a trainwreck. I guess some small part of me still prayed that there will be a miracle, and the manga will grow the beard halfway.
2. I like Isis.

Okay, that's fine, but why do you feel the need to daily remind us all how much it's disappointing you? *glances at Akiyoshi's signature*

And trainwreck? How so? A trainwreck is when a series goes out of control and becomes a huge mess and nothing goes as planned. Thus far everything in Force is consistant and makes sense and is chugging along on the track just fine.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

On a related note, you do realize that with the way things go, it will be even less possible for Yuuno to return as a combatant?

It was impossible for that in the first place. Hell, it's becoming increasingly likely that he'll never even get a passing mention.

[Tiresias]

Hmm? No reaction on my comment of how interesting fights are more than just mid-season upgrades (new spells, new guns, new clothes, new transformation sequence, etc)?

Remember what's awesome from StrikerS? Nanoha puncturing a battleship. Remember the other one? Teana facing down Cyborgs with superior raw power compared to her with less-flashy but planned precision shots and deceptions.

If interesting fights is all about bigger spells or guns, every action series would become Dragonball.

And to be honest, normally I am perfectly willing to just shut up and not repeat my displeasure on this series, but whenever an opinion emerged that "Force is good!", then it is part of my instinct to pop out and say, "No, not all of us here at Animesuki shares that opinion, please don't generalize us." It gives balance to the thread, showing newcomers that the manga has its ups (shown by your opinions) and down (shown by ours).

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Like I said, no different from firing a divine buster or the like. Yeah, you got more variety with bind spells etc, but the new weapons still offer a variety of armaments and modes for said armaments. And again, by virtue of being physical arms it's something different within the bounds of the franchise.

Nanoha is a mage, not a rifleman. You don't tell Darth Vader to start using blasters and you don't tell Boba Fett to wield lightsabers.

Then why are some people getting bent out of shape over the Huckebein winning?

Because lopsided battles are boring. And the Hucks having achieved near-perfect victory (their only loss is not getting Touma) is as irritating as Kira Yamato's flawless victory at the end of Seed Destiny.

[Justin_Brett]

The Huckebein certainly aren't the latter. They have the means to defeat them but not yet the skill. They have to work harder to earn their victory.

These weapons have nothing to do with skill. All the mages do with them is input mana and fire it. If they ever actually defeat a Huckebein with one, it'll be because they were improved by outside sources, not because the heroes trained to do it, like Touma almost certainly will with the book (not that that will ever realistically happen). The weapons have no AIs like the Devices, so they're basically tools, not partners. You can't really develop a gun in the same way, and that's what they are.

It just fucking sucks to see what made the heroes unique thrust aside for ordinary grunt tools.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Hmm? No reaction on my comment of how interesting fights are more than just mid-season upgrades (new spells, new guns, new clothes, new transformation sequence, etc)?

I had nothing particular to address about that. Obviously how you use it is just as important as what you have.

But who's to say that using their magic is the only way to have interesting fights? They could very well have interesting fights using their new tech too.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Remember what's awesome from StrikerS? Nanoha puncturing a battleship. Remember the other one? Teana facing down Cyborgs with superior raw power compared to her with less-flashy but planned precision shots and deceptions.

They can do all those things with the new weapons too.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And to be honest, normally I am perfectly willing to just shut up and not repeat my displeasure on this series, but whenever an opinion emerged that "Force is good!", then it is part of my instinct to pop out and say, "No, not all of us here at Animesuki shares that opinion, please don't generalize us." It gives balance to the thread, showing newcomers that the manga has its ups (shown by your opinions) and down (shown by ours).

Uh, how is some one saying "Force is good" generalizing everyone on Animesuki? It just means that particular user thinks it's good. You shouldn't jump out with a "No it's not!" just because of that. We don't need to show newcomers anything. They'll read the manga and form their own opinions.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Nanoha is a mage, not a rifleman. You don't tell Darth Vader to start using blasters and you don't tell Boba Fett to wield lightsabers.

I'd say you have a point if Nanoha was given a melee weapon (Strike Cannon can work as one, but it's still mainly for ranged combat). Nanoha is a ranged fighter so there's no problem there. The new weapons still use magic, only apply it differently. The user is still a mage.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Because lopsided battles are boring. And the Hucks having achieved near-perfect victory (their only loss is not getting Touma) is as irritating as Kira Yamato's flawless victory at the end of Seed Destiny.

After 2 initial fights. Destiny's ending was BS for sure, but that's because it was just that: the ending. The Hucks have only won at the beginning so far. If for the rest of the manga's run the Hucks still dominate every fight then I'll agree with you on it being a problem.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

These weapons have nothing to do with skill. All the mages do with them is input mana and fire it.

So you're saying that the weapons move into position, judge proper timing, decide what exactly to fire at, aim at it, take other variables into consideration, and fire all by themselves?

I'm sorry, but your comment was just silly. Skill has a ton to do with it! Initial poor perfomance has a lot to do with the user not being used to the device. Once they practice some more and get into the groove of things, perfomance will increase. You can't expect them to be instant experts.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

It just fucking sucks to see what made the heroes unique thrust aside for ordinary grunt tools.

I would not have said it better.

Just as it was mentioned one or two pages ago, FORCE disistabilizes the balance between magic and technology by transforming magic into mere fuel. The devices were partners that bring support to the abilities our heroes developed and trained with effort and dedication growing along with them. The AEC equipements changed that dynamic almost entirely, in the past the heroes were prodigious mages with styles and techniques of their own but now are only testers for soon-to-be mainstream equipement intended to be used by anyone who fit the requirements(or at least that was what Cadlefwich Techniques told us, we need to wait to see that), i agree with Justin, even if they defeat the Hucks the victory won't be the same because they just used a gun, and also agreeing with Tiresias on the fact that they're mages, they trained all their lives to be mages or knights, not a black ops group of hitmen, if the story requires a completely different direction and powers why not give it to a new cast that is more suited to them instead of deforming the image we have of the cast we grow so attached to? ....it's painfull.

The two more impressive and successful fighters of the last battle to me were Fate and Subaru and the reason is that the two are the ones closer to their original abilities and thus, character traits, Fate is still using Bardiche(he was upgraded instead of replaced as a direct request by her, it will be insulting to see Signum holding a different sword unless Laevateinn receives a a solemn farewell, samurai style) and thus still using the spells she's known for, and Sword Breaker shines because is just an extension of one of Subaru's own personal abilities. Seeing Vita and Erio holding Strike Cannons was very jarring to me.

I don't really expect anything big or mindblowing from FORCE anymore but if a miracle like the one Justin and Tiresias ever occurs i heartfully hope that it will be related to the heroes resorting to undergo 5th Gen upgrade or wathever they need to return to be themselves and bring and awesome battle with their own strenght adn skills that amazed us to no end in the past.

EDIT: Those are my feelings, even if the AEC-Equips can emulate the aren't the real deal, the devices have a personality and as such they are also characters in a way, not just weapons, seeing them replaced make me feel unsettled.

[Justin_Brett]

They were doing fine with the weapons in this fight - I can't imagine how Nanoha is supposed to get any more skilled with the Strike Cannon, since it does nothing Raising Heart couldn't. The Huckebein are just too strong for any kind of skill to matter.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

But who's to say that using their magic is the only way to have interesting fights? They could very well have interesting fights using their new tech too.

That's not my point. My point was that you don't always need newer spells, or switching them to guns, to make for an interesting story. I only made that statement because you said that having the heroes use old spells are boring.

Uh, how is some one saying "Force is good" generalizing everyone on Animesuki? It just means that particular user thinks it's good.

Not instantaneously, no. But if the only comments about Force here gave praises and songs about it, the stereotyping would be inevitable.

And no series is without critic. So it's silly to tell us to shove off just because we criticize the manga. You have your opinions, we have ours. And just as you have the right to praise it, we have the right to criticize it.

I'd say you have a point if Nanoha was given a melee weapon (Strike Cannon can work as one, but it's still mainly for ranged combat).

Let's put it this way then.

Nanoha is a mage. All her training and combat experience is tightly related to spellcasting. What makes her an Ace is not just her huge pool of mana, but how she mastered in using them.

Using a Strike Cannon is not the same as using a device. I have no doubt that the Strike Cannon requires training to master, but it is of a different area of expertise. The only similarity is that it's also used for ranged combat, that's it. The weapon has different features than her arsenal of spells and thus requires completely different line of training.

In other words, Nanoha right now is a n00b, not an Ace, regarding Strike Cannon-wielding. Which is why I said that she could be replaced by any other Air Mage as long as that person also has her pool of mana. She has no more experience in using that weapon than others, and judging by the way she dumbly stared at her sliced Cannon without even attempting to distance herself from her melee opponent her general, non-magical military experience didn't help much either.

To put it on RPG terms, right now she has a dexterity of 27 (ranged combat), but level one as a Strike Cannoneer because that's not where her skill points had been allocated all these years.

After 2 initial fights. Destiny's ending was BS for sure, but that's because it was just that: the ending. The Hucks have only won at the beginning so far. If for the rest of the manga's run the Hucks still dominate every fight then I'll agree with you on it being a problem.

More example? The first part of Gundam 00 was boring too, since the heroes uses mechs so overpowered their enemies could barely put a scratch on them.

[itanshi1]

Y'know, there is more going on here than a tournament arc, somehow people are offended by this. There's mystery, developing back story, Protags whom have to think about how they solve this.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Y'know, there is more going on here than a tournament arc, somehow people are offended by this. There's mystery, developing back story, Protags whom have to think about how they solve this.

Except...well, that it's not. Honestly, I'd love a couple of chapters of the mystery of the Eclipse being explored, of getting to see some more glimpses of the scientists' Evil Plan, of some of the backstory of the Stroseks and what, exactly they are (seriously, some hard answers about the Book of the Silver Cross, the Eclipse virus, the Stroseks, and the Divider/Reactor/Plug combination, what the heck they are, and how they fit together would be great), or of the protagonists actually stepping back, analyzing their encounter with the Huckebein, and trying to plan out the kind of strategy, equipment, and tactics they would need to counter their abilities after the way the Hucks pretty well wiped the decks with them the first time.

...Instead, we're getting chapter after chapter of poorly-scripted fighting.

The problem here, for me, is the kind of thing that Tiresias talked about--the execution of the fight scenes. Compare the first two episodes of A's, where the Wolkenritter pretty well curb-stomp the S1 heroes. Even despite the great difference in power level, there's still time for Yuuno and Fate to have good moments, and for the heroes to cap off the fight with Nanoha and Raising Heart's great bit with firing off Starlight Breaker despite RH being beat to crap and Nanoha having Shamal's freaking arm sticking out of her chest. Hayate summoning up that giant iceberg was the closest thing to a moment like that (comparable to, say, Yuuno teleporting in to stop Vita's hammer--not decisive as to the result of the fight but a dramatic moment within the fight).

It's not the concepts of Force that are the problem. Actually, I kind of like the concepts. A new problem that puts the heroes back on their heels, a mysterious conspiracy of evil science committing atrocities, new protagonists that (against my expectations) are actually interesting people that I've come to care about (especially Isis and her mysterious past...which I hope lives up to its buildup), new technology and the hints that the makers of this technology (and the technology itself) could threaten to become a greater problem than what they were created to solve. Rather, it's the execution of those concepts, which feature no more subtlety or careful planning than ViVid and its Tournament Arc--except that in ViVid, we're not being built up to expect something more than "generic shonen plot development." In short, where ViVid revels in its tropes and cliches, playing them to the hilt, Force is weighed down by them, leaving "what might have been" lingering in their wake.

[Justin_Brett]

Hayate summoning up that giant iceberg was the closest thing to a moment like that

Yeah, I remember everyone was comparing that to Nanoha's Starlight Breaker in As when we saw the spoiler pics, but it was basically just to show how tough another villain was.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And no series is without critic. So it's silly to tell us to shove off just because we criticize the manga. You have your opinions, we have ours. And just as you have the right to praise it, we have the right to criticize it.

My point is that you don't need to remind us of your opinion every five minutes. You've stated it many times before and we all know where you stand on the matter.

Criticism is fine. I don't belong to the 'They changed it now it sucks" camp, but note how I say that Force is 'good'. Not 'amazing' or 'masterpiece', but 'good'. That should tell you that I do find problems with it. But seriously, we've been having the same argument for over a year. The line in the sand is clear and who is on what side goes without saying.

[itanshi1]

Yeah i'm thrilled by it, its a good palette

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

My point is that you don't need to remind us of your opinion every five minutes. You've stated it many times before and we all know where you stand on the matter.

Criticism is fine. I don't belong to the 'They changed it now it sucks" camp, but note how I say that Force is 'good'. Not 'amazing' or 'masterpiece', but 'good'. That should tell you that I do find problems with it. But seriously, we've been having the same argument for over a year. The line in the sand is clear and who is on what side goes without saying.

Like I said before,

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And to be honest, normally I am perfectly willing to just shut up and not repeat my displeasure on this series, but whenever an opinion emerged that "Force is good!"

Long story short, if someone doesn't keep reminding us how he loves Force (event after making his stance clear before just like I've made mine), I have no drive to remind people about it's faults. (except when there are new, recently shown faults we haven't over-discussed yet)

And to be honest? We will probably be having this kind of argument till the end of the manga. Perhaps not even then