2009-06-03, 14:22 | Link #2842 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The simple fact is the US pays more per person in healthcare than any other nation on earth. If the US healthcare system were say the best in the world, I couldn't complain about that. However, it isn't. Countries with socialized medicine pay less, some as little as half as much per person and are at the same level as the US in health coverage. Why is that? Could it be that many Americans are without health coverage or even when they have some it doesn't cover enough so they put off going to the doctor until there's a major problem that costs the tax payers a lot more to treat? The current system is broken, and it needs to be fixed. Socilaized medicine is the best way to fix it. Getting back to the car industry specificly, even if the health care costs per employee stayed the same or even rose slightly, the car companies would still be paying less under socalized medicine because the expenses would be spread out among all people and corporations paying tax. Sure, other corporations that don't offer health coverage to their employees might be paying more, but the auto industry would be paying less.
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2009-06-03, 15:42 | Link #2843 | |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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Rich middle-east oil tycoons specifically come to the U.S. to get any complicated medical procedure done. With all the money and resources they possess I don't think they would choose anywhere but the best. The point isn't some jingoistic response to say "USA USA USA" i'll leave that to good ol' Hacksaw Jim Duggan from the old school WWF. Maybe you can tell me a country that has more skilled surgeons or researchers but it would be by such a small margin that it would only be debate not a fact. It's like your kneejerk instinct to see America in a bad light which is fine that's certainly your opinion but on this subject your plainly being irrational. Maybe some country has a healthcare system which fits better to your personal ideology but if it came down to a surgery to save Jesus or Ghandi or someone that you just had to save...you would send them to the U.S. more than likely.
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2009-06-03, 16:01 | Link #2844 | |
Not an expert on things
Join Date: Jun 2007
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But... This might be outdated, but everytime someone says this, I have to remind them about the study by the World Health Organization in 2000. We were 37th in the world ranked according to countries' health care systems. If this is already outdated or disproven or whatever, then my mistake. But realize that you're being just as irrational as the others are, making claims with no evidence to back them up. I highly doubt you know any rich oil tycoons from the Middle East who claim that the US health care system is the best in the world, which even this is only an appeal to authority. |
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2009-06-03, 16:03 | Link #2845 |
Aspiring Aspirer
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The skill surgeons are only there because elsewhere doctors are controlled by the government; eg Nationalized Healthcare.
Being a doctor in Canada is worthless, everything including how much you charge and the days you works are government controlled. That's why they go to the US, because they can do and charge anything they want there, its all about the money. Toopure, the US health system is worthless it takes away healthcare from the poor and makes health insurance a must if you don't want to be full of bills. Their doctors are good cause they have alot of them, but the system is utterly capitalist.
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2009-06-03, 16:35 | Link #2846 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-06-03, 16:41 | Link #2847 | |||||
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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My point was that if you want to get some kind of medical care that America has the most skilled surgeons and research facilities. Now if we are talking about "Healthcare" a buzzword that everyone uses that is usually preceded by Nationalized or Freeeee. Quality "Healthcare" is a debatable term because it means different things to different people.
Some people are concerned with whether it's egalitarian enough other people are more concerned with the health care being in the hand of actual doctors instead of some bureaucrat, that's why I said it would be debatable. I didn't word it properly before obviously because I didn't get across what I was trying to say. Quote:
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What you mean by "only an appeal to authority" is beyond me sorry is this one of those "memes" that people use now a days? Sorry I prefer to speak to people like I'm speaking to a person (even if it is over the internet) not a search engine. Quote:
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2009-06-03, 16:52 | Link #2848 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Someone want to explain how a "faceless for-profit insurance company bureaucrat who only reports to their shareholders" is more interested in my health than a "faceless government bureaucrat who reports to people I elect"? Your doctor has to get approval from the former.
Sorry, but your sound bites lack meat -- they're just assertions. Your anecdotes are just that: anecdotes. How about some statistical data? Have you actually ever looked them up? Have you checked the state of small business and, for that matter, big business lately? They're buried under parasitical health insurance cartels. Or are you just shilling for the health insurance industry?
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2009-06-03, 17:01 | Link #2849 | ||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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I myself consider the Right to Life to be far more important than petty economic ideologies, and healthcare to be part of that "social contract." I don't believe in no Invisible Hand fairy tale to save my life. Quote:
The US system is broken, extremely expensive without insurance, inefficient, unequal, and quite a bloody mess. Every year far too many people declare bankruptcies in the United States, and one of the leading causes by far is medical expense. You blame government, I blame litigations, short-term profit initiatives, byzantine business structures, complicated interest lobbies, and all the bullshit you can eat served in American-size servings. I am *not* happy with our system at all. Best doctors? I don't care. A decent society doesn't reserve its fundamental rights to just the rich and privileged. |
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2009-06-03, 17:10 | Link #2850 | |||||||
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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Do I have to be an expert with all the stats and data to have an opinion? People who don't think anecdotes are worth anything have spent too much time looking at stats and forgotten the value of actual life experience. It's the typical world view of an elitist and believe me I know elitists, I've been bombarded by them my entire life (uh-oh another anecdote, cause the human experience is worth nothing to the truly enlightened) in the Massachusetts school system. I've heard this sort of knee-jerk reaction in any intellectual conversation that "U.S.A." or "Capitalism" equals bad and it's gotten really old. So I try to play the devil's advocate at any time and take up the side of a country that has afforded me a life that 99% of humans that have lived on this earth would only dream about. But I try to not be jingoistic about it which is more than I can say about people who will always just fall back to the old "the world has a problem? Blame America."
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The constitution does however speak about the rights of a man to enjoy the fruits of his labor so I have no problem with the richest people enjoying the quality that comes with the most expensive doctors. Oh and I'd like to say that I've been saying Health Care when I mean to say Health Insurance. Any time you've seen me use the term Health Care I should have said Health Insurance. Sorry about the confusion my mind is not in one place right now. So if you are somehow getting the impression that I am pro health insurance companies because of that sorry but that's not my position at all. Quote:
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Last edited by TooPurePureBoy; 2009-06-03 at 17:32. |
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2009-06-03, 17:26 | Link #2851 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Of course, President O anticipates this. So he puts a ceiling rate of payment which X could receive. X faces 2 options: _Seeing Tom who, according to his experience, has a real problem. Exhausting himself to diagnose Tom and getting, say 5 bucks. _Seeing Joe who is just paranoid. Chatting with him for sometimes, going fishing and getting 5 bucks. What would he choose? Quote:
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2009-06-03, 18:42 | Link #2852 | |||||
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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If the doctor is a specialist, he probably won't even hear about the second guy in either system, because the guy's general practitioner won't refer him. Quote:
As for your last question, you're missing the point. They're not funding the auto industry, they're funding healthcare that benefits people in their industry as well. It's just that the auto industry gets a nice little break out of the deal.
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2009-06-03, 18:48 | Link #2853 | |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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It's one of these discussions from the inside of the goldfish bowl again.
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2009-06-03, 19:18 | Link #2854 | |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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Personally I think calling someone a "Renaissance Man" is one of the highest compliments a person can give another.
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2009-06-03, 19:33 | Link #2855 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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My view is that in the US, you have to look out for yourself, alot. Wait, make that micromanagement. When it comes to financial matters, you have to comb through the fine print while others are enjoying their day in the sun. It is vital, if you don't want to be screwed by insufficient coverage, or things the fine print states. It is a life, yes. But, does it sound like it's worth living?
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2009-06-03, 22:30 | Link #2856 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Now, there are 300 millions people in this country. To "warm up" the system, you must first scan those 300 millions people! That alone would bankrupt the country. Quote:
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Now suppose a test takes one day, if you are the doctor would you prefer to spend one hour to test the guy you know for sure has no problem then go fishing or spend the entire day helping the other guy. The catch is that doing either would get you 5 bucks no more, no less. Quote:
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2009-06-03, 23:11 | Link #2857 |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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The US is bankrupt anyway. Part of that is due to the staggering amount of money the government spends on Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.
The pros and cons of capitalist vs social medicine can be debated forever, but I find it truly sad that people don't consider health care to be a human right. We spend exorbitant amounts on medical research and aid, but even in one of the most progressive countries in the world there are a substantial amount of people who either cannot afford or have significant trouble affording even basic health care. The costs of propping up the system are out of control. Unhealthy people are either not working and "leeching" off the system or they are working but pose a risk to other members of society. Businesses and individuals pay through the nose for mandatory insurances and when people retire the benefits they get from the government can barely pay for anything. Younger people don't realize it, but there's two major problems looming for health care in the US. First, we're about to have the biggest explosion of elderly in at least a century, and second, the programs designed to ease that burden are due to be completely bankrupt in a decade or two. Even without socialized medicine, medical costs in the country are skyrocketing and will only get worse. This cycle is forcing costs up elsewhere and bankrupting programs, companies and individuals. *Something* has to be done, and the problem can't be solved by allowing insurance companies to gain even more power and money. I should be able to handle a health issue without fighting my insurance company every step of the way, and not worrying about taking out even more loaned money or just bankrupting it all. Sadly for many Americans, this type of choice is all too common. Many just opt to wait until it truly is an emergency, simply because they cannot afford to pay for even basic preventative care.
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2009-06-03, 23:16 | Link #2858 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
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National health care sounds really good on paper, but like lots of other things that sound good on paper they don't make the transition into reality quite as well as expected. I have relatives in England that absolutely hate their health care system there, they tell me it's wonderful ... as long as you don't need health care. One of the big problems they have is limited resources which translates to waiting lists for consultations and more waiting lists for procedures. Canada has problems with waiting lists as well, it's caused the creation of health care brokers that more often than not send their clients to the US to get around the wait times.
You know the old saying, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. |
2009-06-03, 23:20 | Link #2859 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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For example, if a bomb explodes, and there are two patients : one with his leg below the knee blown off and another with fragmentation in his neck, rupturing the jugular, you treat the one with leg problem first because the there is little use of treating the other because he won't live more than 10-15 minutes. The other guy would just have 1 less leg for the rest of his life. That is the hard truth of lifesaving. You can't save everyone. Quote:
Of course, the cost of going to a GP is mutually exclusive from the argument. That is a financial problem, not a medical problem. Quote:
IMO, the four toughest jobs in the world are doctors, lawyers, soldiers and teachers. Their responsibilities can result in the life or death, success or ruination of an individual in a single act.
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2009-06-04, 00:08 | Link #2860 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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~~~ I too also find it sad that people do not see health care as a fundamental right in a society. I do not see why someone else in a society deserves to live longer just because he has the $$$. This is a dangerous ideology.
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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