[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[MeoTwister5]

For the Siestas that looks like a modification of the British flag. You can possibly relate it to the British Isles if you consider Pendragon as a reference to the Arthurian Legends.

Now that I think about it, Sakutaro's pin looks like Germany's Iron Cross medal.

[vandakiara]

so maybe Sakutarou is a nazi? D: *shot*

hmm if they're related, does it tell us something?

[Kitsu]

Of course he's blonde


Maybe it does...but I'm not sure... I once had the theory that those magic scenes are a explanation made by Maria or made for Maria. It is "easier" and a lot "cleaner" to tell a young believing girl "The siestas shot Kanon" instead of "Your beloved cousin George shot the f*** out of Kanon". And a young girl might not really "understand" and in her delusional mind imagining the siestas killing Person X is easier and above happier

[vandakiara]

hmm maybe so but doesn't Battler also hears that side of the story? and aren't we seeing this from his perspective?

[Kitsu]

We are definitely seeing the magic scenes from an illusion perspective, a person make those illusions up and changes the truth. That person is Beatrice, who is a friend of Maria (The alliance thingy) Let's make an example, we will use the second twilight of the second game cause it's easy to find an explanation.
So Beatrice knows the truth, the truth is in this example
-Jessica killed Kanon
-Jessica made Kanon's corpse "diasappear" (threw it out of the window or what ever)
-Jessica fakes dead, committs a complicated suicide attempt

But Beatrice wants a truth that is suited for Maria, which became the illusion she made up (kanon hurrying to the rescue and protects Jessica like the knight in the shiny armor etc). And shows this Battler and if she wins the game and Battler (the last stand) accepts witches and the like, the illusion becomes "true" as well and Maria gets her likeable happy truth.

[Alaya]

You cannot trust anything that isn't in red

I think that sum it all. What Battler see/hear/smell/touch doesn't matter, as long as it is not in red, it cannot be completely trust. Human perceptions are very easy to manipulated.

You can compare magic scenes to Schroedinger's cat in the box too. You don't know whether the cat in the box is alive or dead. But a person opposite to you start babbling that the cat must be dead, and he even set up a TV and tell you that this is connect to camera inside the box and what you see is what happen in the box. But in the end, you have to open the box to confirm.

In magical scene is a little bit different, if you believe what TV shows about the cat in the box to be dead, then when you open the box, the cat will be surely dead and vice versa.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Alaya

You cannot trust anything that isn't in red

I think that sum it all. What Battler see/hear/smell/touch doesn't matter, as long as it is not in red, it cannot be completely trust. Human perceptions are very easy to manipulated.

Real-Battler (as opposed to Meta-Battler) never sees anything magical, at least never in his first-person narration. He's at least somewhat reliable.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Renall

Real-Battler (as opposed to Meta-Battler) never sees anything magical, at least never in his first-person narration. He's at least somewhat reliable.

I also refer to real-Battler too. Even he is told about magic by someone else about unobservable (for him) events, it cannot be trust unless it's in red (which will not happen in the game board, I think). Also, we don't know what real-Battler hear or observe is creditable or not. If he believe it's real, then it will represent as real stuffs.

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Renall

Real-Battler (as opposed to Meta-Battler) never sees anything magical, at least never in his first-person narration. He's at least somewhat reliable.

Except when he's drunk, apparently.

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Alaya

I also refer to real-Battler too. Even he is told about magic by someone else about unobservable (for him) events, it cannot be trust unless it's in red (which will not happen in the game board, I think). Also, we don't know what real-Battler hear or observe is creditable or not. If he believe it's real, then it will represent as real stuffs.

The other people might even be lying, a simple theory says that kyrie was the culprit, but she took hostages so people would lie about magic.

[Maria-Chwan]

Originally Posted by IfritTower

Spoiler for Late Ep 4 spoilers:

What uuu really means.

Due to this statement I can only be left to wonder. Uu~

[JustinP231]

Okay, so! I'm a big Umineko fan, but new to these forums and stuff. And, I apologize ahead of time if this has already been stated, but I did some looking and couldn't find it (though I didn't look anywhere near through all 100+ Pages)... Well, anyways, this is a theory of mine I recently had, and wanted some feedback on it...

WELL...

It was stated in red that noone could've disguised themselves as Kanon (or something to that effect), and Lambdadelta later stated in red that "The only person who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!", right? WELL... Looking at that carefully for a while, I suddenly realized something...

Kanon, like Shannon, has a different name than the one he uses. In other words, he has a real name, aside from the name Kanon. Therefore, it's possible that someone could have indeed inherited or used the name Kanon. This is because, since Kanon has a real name that's different from Kanon, someone can claim the name 'Kanon', without claiming 'Kanon's Name'.

Well... That's what I came up with anyways.... I wonder if it was already said?

EDIT: This is, of course, referring to Episode 2's event with the "impostor Kanon".

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by JustinP231

Kanon, like Shannon, has a different name than the one he uses. In other words, he has a real name, aside from the name Kanon. Therefore, it's possible that someone could have indeed inherited or used the name Kanon. This is because, since Kanon has a real name that's different from Kanon, someone can claim the name 'Kanon', without claiming 'Kanon's Name'.

Well... That's what I came up with anyways.... I wonder if it was already said?

EDIT: This is, of course, referring to Episode 2's event with the "impostor Kanon".

Honestly, given the circumstances, it seems more likely that there never was an impostor at all. Genji and Shannon are, clearly, in cahoots with Rosa, given that she claimed to Battler that she had verified their alibis with Kinzo, which we now know is a bald faced lie. Chances are that the killer is among Rosa's little conspiracy, or even that all of them are in on it. Genji in particular. He was the one to check the church door and declare it locked, which is why Rosa had to fetch the key from Maria's letter to 'unlock' it. But we only have Genji's word that the door was locked in the first place- Beatrice never actually declared the door to be locked.

Shannon may have been in on it- she might even have been the person disguising herself as 'Beatrice' as a part of the plan to get the siblings into the church or whatever. As an aside- we've only seen Beatrice on the game board in two games, and both of them were also games where Shannon lived through the first twilight, and also both those games Eva and Hideyoshi die in the first twilight. If Shannon dies in the first, those two live (a while at least...). Also, if Shannon lives through the first, Jessica always dies on the second...

Anyway, if Genji and Shannon are helping Rosa, it's possible they just killed Nanjo and Kumasawa themselves. Gohda might have been threatened or bribed, but it's possible he also was a part of their plan. He's just as possible a culprit for killing Jessica and Kanon. I keep thinking of the scene where the servants come to tell Rosa's sheep about the killings- Genji and Shannon are composed, while Gohda is very flustered and doesn't know what to say until Genji takes the lead.

As for the last killings, in Natsuhi's room- Genji might have been lying when he told Rosa and Battler that he was 'waiting for orders'. He could have killed George and Shannon, wounded Gohda, and left the room. Gohda locked the door behind him, either as part of the plan or just to keep Genji out, but dies from his injury. Or maybe George locked it, but Gohda was lying by the door.

[rogerpepitone]

I don't think Rosa and Genji are working together. If they were, why would she hamstring him by keeping all the keys? Why not secretly pass him a key?

I think the scene leading up to dead-Kanon's attack consisted of Shannon & Genji revealing that they hadn't seen Kinzo, and Rosa must have been lying when she backed them up. Kumasawa explained how she and Jessica had planned the Halloween party. They decided Rosa was the killer, and concocted the ruse of dead Kanon to confuse or worry Rosa. Maybe they'd even found his body in the meantime.

[pikapika212]

Yo, I'm been stalking this board for a while, reading and I was thinking, did Kanon really die? What if Beatrice mean't Kanon death as in, his death as a furniture. That he is not furniture anymore, and he's using his real alias, like when he declared in episode 1, after shanons death, but instead for Jessica who did protect kanon, the culprit could be a servant, Gohda or so. This won't break the 17 people rule, he's the only one who can claim his name. Maybe, perhaps he disappeared because the servants are in league in a way with Rosa, and just wanted revenge or so. Since no one looks like kanon unless you want the Kanon=Shannon theory. Than after the killing, Kanon commited suicide, or something, or that he might still be killing. Although I haven't finished reading episode 2 and 3......

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I don't think Rosa and Genji are working together. If they were, why would she hamstring him by keeping all the keys? Why not secretly pass him a key?

I think the scene leading up to dead-Kanon's attack consisted of Shannon & Genji revealing that they hadn't seen Kinzo, and Rosa must have been lying when she backed them up. Kumasawa explained how she and Jessica had planned the Halloween party. They decided Rosa was the killer, and concocted the ruse of dead Kanon to confuse or worry Rosa. Maybe they'd even found his body in the meantime.

All things considered, Rosa HAS to have actually been plotting with Genji and Shannon on some level. Think about it. After the rest of the siblings die, Rosa goes up to Kinzo's room, where she found Genji and Shannon. And no Kinzo. Genji explained to her about Krauss's plot to hide Kinzo's death, and he's actually been dead for some time now. Rosa takes one of Kinzo's guns, and heads back down with Genji and Shannon.

Shortly after this, she drives all the servants away, saying they are too suspicious. 'Wolves and Sheep'. Neither George nor Battler really want to accept this turn of events. Now, if Rosa really wanted to drive the servants away and make them suspicious, why doesn't she just say to Battler and George "I went to Kinzo's room and found out he's actually been dead for months. Maybe years. Genji and Shannon were keeping him in the ice box." It's not like they can deny this. Kinzo never made it into the boiler, since the people who are burning him (Krauss and Natsuhi) were both dead this game. So he's wherever Krauss had been storing him, presumably someplace in his study.

But Rosa never used that trump card, and instead used Kinzo to create an alibi for them, even though she's chasing them away just a short time later. I think this was planned, with Shannon and Genji out of the others' sight they can eliminate the servants who know about Kinzo but are not part of the plot: Kumasawa and Nanjo. I don't know why she didn't give a key to the killer, but since locked room deals were par for the course in Episode 2, they might have been able to plan around that.

Honestly, I have no idea why Rosa pretended not to know about Kinzo's death. And I find it hard to believe she didn't know. I guess she saw some angle I haven't, which made keeping it a secret advantageous to her.

Ugh. I can make reasonable sounding explanations for Eps 1, 3 and 4, but everything in Ep2 just gets my head jumbled up.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Ugh. I can make reasonable sounding explanations for Eps 1, 3 and 4, but everything in Ep2 just gets my head jumbled up.

I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation for 4. And not a vague one either. Who died when? Who was "Beatrice?" Who was the last person alive other than Battler? It's harder than it sounds, actually.

[maximilianjenus]

I want to hear this.

Kanon is Male

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

I want to hear this.

Kanon is Male

Refuse to repeat...

Well, at least I hope he's not Shkanon. That's enough for me.

[Ithekro]

Are you sure he isn't just furniture as in an inanimate object or figment of someone's imagination? Jessica's favorate toy perhaps?