Attack on Titan - Episode 45 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

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[Kanon]

I had forgotten how awesome Historia was during this part. Good thing she and the others managed to talk some sense into Eren. His suggestion that he should get eaten by Rod was terrible.

[Haak]

Christ, maybe Historia should've just eaten Eren anyway. She'd make a way better protagonist. I really don't get what the writer is trying to do here with Eren. He always seem to lurch from being awesome to having an existential crisis with no consistency. And he never seems to come out any better after having these crisis' so it's kinda hard to understand the point unless the writer just hates him for some reason. I complained before about how it never made any sense for someone as single minded as him to waver so easily when he had to fight Annie, and it doesn't make any more sense now than it did then.

Gotta love the ham though.

[Klashikari]

^ I completely disagree. If anything, this arc defined Eren's human nature. While he wasn't described as a blind/enraged avenger, Eren wasn't particularly shown under a good light because he couldn't really do anything as of late, notably the losses after he was abducted by Reiner and Berthold. Eren believes he screwed up and the scouts paid a hefty price already.

If anything, his existential crisis is quite consistent when it comes to his character.
The defining impetus Eren had was to free humanity from the shackles of the walls and titans alike. Once he got the power of the titans, he realized he could make the difference in the conflict where so many people died in vain. That's the very reason Levi's squad death shook him to the very core, because he -didn't do what he could have done-, leaving him with many regrets as result.

What does this truth mean to him? That not only he killed his father, but he thought he is the very reason why humanity couldn't stop the titans.
Even if you consider the whole issue with Fritz preventing the founder titan person to use its power if they are part of the Reiss bloodline, to Eren, this "could" be fixed in some fashion. However, the other way around doesn't seem possible to him: they don't know how he activated the coordinates power back then. And everything as of late pretty much proves a non Reiss would be no good for the founding titan power.

To Eren, he believes the founding titan power is the key of humanity survival. Knowing that his own existence is preventing the use of that power shattered his will to fight. And if it wasn't for his father intervention, Eren really thought the Reiss bloodline could have at least used the power of the titans to stop the tragedies. But since his father killed the Reiss children, it was all for naught.

So really, Eren felt like he and his father were responsible of this whole mess. And when you consider the number of casualties because of that, it isn't surprising that someone like him would give up, especially if their raison d'être was to defend humanity.
That's also why Eren was nicknamed "that suicidal idiot", because Eren is very dedicated to his mission. If anything, I dare say only top brass like Erwin and Pixis could be even remotely close to Eren's devotion towards Humanity at large.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

^ I completely disagree. If anything, this arc defined Eren's human nature. While he wasn't described as a blind/enraged avenger, Eren wasn't particularly shown under a good light because he couldn't really do anything as of late, notably the losses after he was abducted by Reiner and Berthold. Eren believes he screwed up and the scouts paid a hefty price already.

If anything, his existential crisis is quite consistent when it comes to his character.
The defining impetus Eren had was to free humanity from the shackles of the walls and titans alike. Once he got the power of the titans, he realized he could make the difference in the conflict where so many people died in vain. That's the very reason Levi's squad death shook him to the very core, because he -didn't do what he could have done-, leaving him with many regrets as result.

What does this truth mean to him? That not only he killed his father, but he thought he is the very reason why humanity couldn't stop the titans.
Even if you consider the whole issue with Fritz preventing the founder titan person to use its power if they are part of the Reiss bloodline, to Eren, this "could" be fixed in some fashion. However, the other way around doesn't seem possible to him: they don't know how he activated the coordinates power back then. And everything as of late pretty much proves a non Reiss would be no good for the founding titan power.

To Eren, he believes the founding titan power is the key of humanity survival. Knowing that his own existence is preventing the use of that power shattered his will to fight. And if it wasn't for his father intervention, Eren really thought the Reiss bloodline could have at least used the power of the titans to stop the tragedies. But since his father killed the Reiss children, it was all for naught.

There is something to that. There was nothing they could do against the initial attack, but if Frieda had lived, she could have used the Coordinate power to order the titans to get out and repair the walls. There wouldn't have been a famine, and maybe Armin's grandfather would still be alive.

(I don't think leaving to the Reisses is in any way a good idea, but still.)

So really, Eren felt like he and his father were responsible of this whole mess. And when you consider the number of casualties because of that, it isn't surprising that someone like him would give up, especially if their raison d'être was to defend humanity.
That's also why Eren was nicknamed "that suicidal idiot", because Eren is very dedicated to his mission. If anything, I dare say only top brass like Erwin and Pixis could be even remotely close to Eren's devotion towards Humanity at large.

Their resolve is very different, though. Mature, thoughtful, calculated, whereas Eren still runs on hot blood.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

^ I completely disagree.

Okay, I accept that Eren's breakdown does make sense in itself. It's just I'm finding it difficult to see what the point of it is in the grander scheme of things. What exactly is Eren going to gain from this character-wise? It's not like he was lacking any resolve to begin with. I thought he was really cool throughout most of the first season but I just feel like we're always going one step forward and two steps back when it comes his characterisation.

Maybe Eren gaining the ability to harden was meant to be the reward or something? I guess maybe they were trying to show that what Eren did required a considerable degree of skill and effort but honestly the scene just made it look like it was mostly the conveniently placed bottle of drugs that did it. And I didn't even realise that was a thing he was aiming for in the first place. Is that what they were experimenting when his face nearly came off? It was such a throw away scene that I didn't even think twice about it.

Maybe Eren will have a another big moment when he (presumably) fights the Rod Reiss Titan but even then I'm still not sure what the net gain would be.

[Klashikari]

Why is there a need of gain, character wise? The author ought to keep their characters consistent with the way they wrote them and how the story progressed thus far.

In this case, there wouldn't be any way for Eren not to react that way after learning the true reason why he got the founding titan power. This arc was necessary to expose the true nature of the titan stuff, while exploring how Eren got his power in the first place, something that was always shown as an abnormal occurence with more and more oddity in the mix (Grisha missing from the very get go, Annie/Reiner/Berthold focus on him, the military police, the coordinate activation, etc).
Let's not forget that Eren was one of the reason why the scouts were trying to go back to Shinganshina to discover what kind of stuff his father has left to them in the basement. When Eren learns about Grisha "acting as the enemy of humanity", that's basically flipping Eren's mental state upside down. It is as if the MC of a story realized midway that everything he has done wasn't for the greater good, but for the absolute evil.

Besides, a lot of people still thought Eren is mostly acting on revenge and impulse, whereas he is pretty much a devoted boy with some emotional issue at worst. This part of the story made pretty clear that he never considered himself as special or a messiah. Instead, it was because of his power that Eren pushed himself so hard to the point he thought he could make a difference after what happened 5 years prior the start of the story. He was a man on a mission, but cannot withstand the idea of wasting people's efforts by his fault, be it Levi's squad death and so on. This was something that was kind of alluded before, but not exposed thoroughly. It isn't like his character changed or anything: this is something that ought to happen due to the circumstances of his powers anyway.
That's why Eren monologue before creating that crystal wall is very important for his characterization: "For once, please let me believe in myself". This demonstrates quite well what I've mentioned before: Eren wants to do something. Or rather anything to help, even though he is absolutely unsure about what he can do. And that uncertainty was always something that clouded his judgment on several occasions. So this scene address that lingering issue.

And no, I don't believe Eren's hardening ability is meant to be a reward, but rather a logical progression after finding out the truth about the titans. You can tell that titan shifters don't really come with a full package of ability and that titanization was most likely engineered in some fashion, proved by Reiss' goods. It would have been quite weird for Eren to suddenly have the ability to harden himself like that, when it is Reiner's titan specialty, while Annie's could do that to a much lesser degree.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Haak

Maybe Eren gaining the ability to harden was meant to be the reward or something? I guess maybe they were trying to show that what Eren did required a considerable degree of skill and effort but honestly the scene just made it look like it was mostly the conveniently placed bottle of drugs that did it. And I didn't even realise that was a thing he was aiming for in the first place. Is that what they were experimenting when his face nearly came off? It was such a throw away scene that I didn't even think twice about it.

Maybe Eren will have a another big moment when he (presumably) fights the Rod Reiss Titan but even then I'm still not sure what the net gain would be.

It was indeed the bottle that gave him the power to harden. And it's indeed quite convenient it just happened to lay there.

As for Eren's character, it was a low point for him, but it was necessary to add more depth to his character. He was seen as one dimensional by a lot of people.

[frodonk]

All I know is that I liked Sasha's reaction to them talking about the key. Yes it's been mentioned the last time 6 years ago and yes apparently it's something important to the plot

At least we'll get to see Shigashina again soon!

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Why is there a need of gain, character wise? The author ought to keep their characters consistent with the way they wrote them and how the story progressed thus far.

The author also needs to have a clear path of progression. If you see a character that is pretty much in a constant state of regression, one can only wonder if the author intends said character's fate to end in tragedy or some sort of path towards the "dark side". Eren has clearly regressed here. It's all well and good explaining why Eren is the way he is right now but that's not the point I'm making: The point is, he clearly can't stay this way. If the screaming and crying wasn't enough, the episode even made a point of having more admirable characters like Historia show how clouded his judgement still is even after he calmed down. So yes, there has to be a gain because otherwise we're left with a protagonist with an unsustainable mentality, even if it's the most well developed and consistent unsustainable mentality. That would be fine if we were talking about a side character but we're not: Eren is supposed to be the main character.

And on a personal level, it's difficult to root for someone that is purely reactive to events, and even more so when their reaction is negative.

[Klashikari]

There was no other way around it. As I already stated, Eren's world was completely upside down, because everything on the surface level pointed out how his father was the reason why the world is crashing and burning.

It could only be Historia and other characters to think outside of the box. If Eren could immediately deduce his father didn't do that for shit and giggles, his role would overlap with Hange, Armin and/or Historia. There is no way someone as emotional as Eren would be able to clearly see the problem of his self sacrifice there. His worth is exactly there thanks to the other characters.

Eren always needed other characters to shine in time of hardship. This might sound overly dependant for what he can do, but that always have been his narrative role by default. In fact, that was merely a slap to the face. I don't see how he "regressed" considering his devotion is still there, and still thought about this plan "for the greater good". Contrary to his breakdown with Historia, the reason why he wanted to sacrifice himself was how it looked like the best solution for humanity while keeping the possible number of casualties at the strict minimum considering Reiss' titan is twice as big as the colossal titan.

Eren didn't have time to think this through. But once everyone talked about this, he could regain his composure and realize his wrong assumptions about his father. As usual, Eren is willing to listen and think about what other characters have to say.

Eren was always the action guy, not the one devising plan or seeing through lies and stuff like that. That doesn't mean he is a moron or anything considering what he did before. But this very specific issue was too personal for him to even realize the underlying problem with his train of thought. As I said, that struck him way harder than ANY other revelation until now.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Haak

I complained before about how it never made any sense for someone as single minded as him to waver so easily when he had to fight Annie, and it doesn't make any more sense now than it did then.

At that point in the story he hadn't associated Titans with humans nevermind humans he knew..cared about and thought he was fighting for...Even once he realized its a human inside he was cool with killing that Titan because the Titan was the enemy...Annie conflicted that...He was also (perhaps still is) in a mode where he hadn't quite figured out how to easily transform...Realizing he had to fight someone he knew and cared about gave him doubt and without raging-out, transforming aint easy for him...

As for the rest...


The mental and physical stress it must take to watch so many people close to you be devoured...Be devoured yourself...Find out you're a Titan...Figure out how to transform, etc, etc., etc.,... The ebb and flow of that has to encompass a mental strain I don't think we are all appreciating...Totally get why someone would want to give up...

Rod Reiss knew of many of these dilemmas his entire life and finally went a little batshit in the end and he was never a Titan (until that licketysplit moment)...

While it is annoying in a pure sense (Everybody hates Shinji from EVA and Shinn from Gundam Seed Destiny because they just won't do what we want them to do and grow past their frustrations), but in Eren's case the meta-physical toll, plus the ups and downs in-terms of false answers, and even worse, false memories...I understand why he cried his guts out...

I too want him to push through but that's the shonen kid in me that's been conditioned to think every main male character should just be able to do this...

On a another note...I don't know if it was discussed, but they were able to crack Eren out of the crystal shell after he saved them with the armor...It had already been shown that OGM slicers CANT DO THAT...So I was on some WTF type $hit with that...That's super inconsistent...

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It was indeed the bottle that gave him the power to harden. And it's indeed quite convenient it just happened to lay there.

It's a reasonable narrative convenience which was far from impossible to happen. Luck is part of everyday life too and the people tend to complain about plot convenience don't seem to realize that everything being calculated is unnatural. It's only a problem when it utilized way too much and entirely implausible.

[Guido]

Interpreting the context of the narrative from this episode is that in life at times we may or can open up choices to take and there are other times that we cannot choose simply because choices either were non-existent or closed away from our grasp at the beginning.

Now, with a vast majority of the jigsaw pieces assembled the truth got clearer but still far away from our protagonists' grasp for the time being.

Grisha Jaeger still remains a mystery figure as to his motives for what he stole from the Reiss Family, but it cannot be oversimplified due that he hadn't a choice. Simply put, he had to move forward to reach a goal, and a choice was something he could not afford may be because he was hard pressed on time.

As for Historia, I liked her resolve to choose to become Queen on the condition that she will lay her life on the line her fallen comrades did, and her living comrades are about to do so. Her take on that matter is a vast improvement from the manga material; an important narrative in her characters that Isayama-sensei desired to have fix in the anime.

Spoiler:

In the manga, Historia was unsure and anxious to take on the role of Queen, until Levi manhandled her with violence in order to submit to take it.

IMHO, the anime fix that because what became important for Historia was rebelling against the will of the Reiss family in order to live a life she could be proud of. In essence, by neglecting on repeating the vicious cycle Historia found herself anew without regrets and kept alive a part of Ymir.

Now, as much as Eren felt worthless and wimpy with his bitching and crying, he should have recalled that for him to die or getting killed isn't a choice to make alone. The Scout Regiment and him have been in all this chaos together caged within the same Walls.
Luckily, in time of very need, Eren realized his own selfishness and discovering an unexpected treasure granted him the hardening ability for his Titan.

Spoiler:

Makes one to wonder regarding both the Titan serum and the Armor bottle what order secrets the Reiss family kept from humanity?

So, next episode brings forth the Battle of Orvud District against the Rod Titan being the most massive Titan ever in history that Humanity has ever challenged.