2011-03-25, 14:18 | Link #22401 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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At least some of them cannot have come from R-Prime, and possibly none do.
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2011-03-25, 17:26 | Link #22403 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The cups and coins problem in EP6 kind of illustrates this. You have five coins and three cups, and you need to divide the coins up so that the cups have 1, 2, and 3 coins respectively. The trick is to take a cup with 1 coin and put it inside a cup with 2 coins: [[o] oo] [oo] Let's label that 1-coin cup "reality" and the 2-coin cup we put it in "mystery fiction". So now the reality cup still has 1 coin in it, but the fiction cup has 2 fictional coins and 1 real coin for a total of 3. If we apply that idea to Rokkenjima, then we can name those 2 fictional coins "Kanon" and "Erika". On the fictional Rokkenjima, Erika just fills the hole left by Kinzo and becomes the 18th person. But on the real (or at least "less fictional") Rokkenjima, there's only 16 people to start with, so even if we magically added Erika in, the total would only come up to 17. It might be worth pushing the metaphor a bit and saying that the remaining two coins represent Kinzo and Beatrice, the two major characters who weren't real even within the mystery fiction. There used to be a deeper "fantasy fiction" cup where they existed, but it's already been removed from the game board and set aside.
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2011-03-25, 21:55 | Link #22404 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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What LyricalAura said is just an interpretation, it isn't confirmed anywhere. Another popular explanation is that Erika being the "18th human" is just a title.
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2011-03-25, 22:09 | Link #22405 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I don't see much of a difference between the title theory and the fiction theory LyricalAura demonstrated though. (great job writing that up BTW. Better than what I would have wrote) They essentially amount to the same thing when it comes to the 18th person red.
EDIT: Well maybe the other theory is a little more detailed...
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2011-03-26, 01:21 | Link #22407 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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2011-03-26, 03:55 | Link #22409 | ||
Ars Magica Translator
Join Date: Oct 2010
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It's simply a question that returned among my friends XD Quote:
If BeaBato 'welcome' Erika, it's 17. Something like this?
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2011-03-26, 04:04 | Link #22410 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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My explanation is pretty much the same as LyricalAura's, I think. Fiction: Shannon + Kanon + Erika + rest = 18, Rokkenjima-Prime: Yasu + Erika + rest = 17.
I did some kind of a chart about the layered worlds of Umineko and some of the character's relations. Spoiler for EP8 big image:
We could also place Golden Land somewhere, but it is also a bit hard to place. Maybe it is even higher than Ryukishi, as in real heaven? I suppose it's a fictional heaven at most, maybe placed around the same level as Kakeraverse. I think you can also swap the places of Rokkenjima Prime and Kakeraverse without doing much harm, maybe with some modification. Plus, Knox rules should affect the Forgeries as well, forgot it. I'm not sure with the relation of Featherine and "Battler-Tohya", but he's some kind of representative here. We can, of course, debate Kanon's existence. And to add to the debate of if we can confirm our answers... If it isn't possible to reach the one truth, we should look for the most likely truth. The problem is, many of the speculated answers are as likely as the others. |
2011-03-26, 08:16 | Link #22411 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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That chart is debatable considering how Featherinne holds absolute power over Lambdadelta and Bernkastel, and in the end even Ange does.
Lambda and Bern should exist on a lower level than Rokkenjima Prime. Also I believe that the Tohya Hachijo we see in EP6 and part of EP7 is just a metaphysical representation of the "author" known with that name, which in the metaworld takes the name of Featherinne. Ikuko Hachijo might have the same look and might have a similar personality but she's definitely different. She isn't as much as arrogant and she doesn't use expressions like "child of man". Quote:
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I don't particularly like this explanations, because then BatBeato are acting like total assholes. As if Erika didn't know that the games are fictions, what's the point in bringing up a red truth from another layer of existence? Now once I would have said: "it can't be because Ryuukishi wouldn't do something like that". But now I won't say that anymore, so this explanation is entirely possible, but I still maintain that it's incredibly lame to change the context of the red truths without any notice.
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2011-03-26, 10:56 | Link #22412 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I haven't actually read EP8, just random spoilers, so it is an EP7 impression chart. With that you could see why I haven't quite grasped it with Featherine, Ange, Bern and stuff. So I still have the impression that Ikuko is pretty much like EP6 while not that overboard.
I also find it odd how the EP6 final reds affect Erika in a fatal way at all, if the explanation I have to solve them is correct. Erika got it the wrong way, as something to erase her existence? Ryukishi could be just messing with the contexts as you said. |
2011-03-26, 11:40 | Link #22414 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Erika was supposed to die before that final red, simply because she was shot by the bullet in that duel. Likewise Beatrice was supposed to die in case Erika won.
A direct denial of their existences isn't necessary, it's simply how that duel worked.
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2011-03-26, 12:19 | Link #22415 | |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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2011-03-26, 12:59 | Link #22416 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-03-26, 13:10 | Link #22417 | ||
Ars Magica Translator
Join Date: Oct 2010
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2011-03-26, 13:12 | Link #22418 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Also, do you believe ep 1-7 really happened? And is Featherine writing the stories, or it's more like she wrote them after she observed the games? |
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2011-03-26, 15:18 | Link #22419 | ||
The True Culprit
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